Atheism requires as much faith as religion?

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Atheism requires as much faith as religion? bearvspuma : The only problem with this rationalization is that ita s assuming all athiests are so because theya re intelligent in the ways of science and reasoning and all people that believe in a form of god are unintelligent.

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Since: Sep 11

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#169750
Jun 23, 2013
 
Dave Nelson wrote:
<quoted text>
Your reacted to an old book in your youth. It being the only religion or spiritual education you knew your reaction was focused on that religion and portrayal of the spiritual world. You were unable to view existence and spiritual matters outside that paradigm, so your reaction became not just a denial of that religion, but of existence beyond this physical. You went off into the wilderness blind, so to speak.
Don't feel alone. You, I, and countless millions or billions did the same thing. Reaction to the only thing you were taught which blinded you to other possibilities. Kind of stuck on stupid. So you defaulted to the "scientism" religion.
Here is a fact.
If your religious training was based upon The Book of Einstein and you detected inconsistencies and errors like you did in the Bible, you would be railing against science right now.
There is middle ground.
Be skeptical about everything.
I am. Einstein was wrong about a lot of things. I don't deify him, so I am not forced to perform mental gymnastics when confronted by something he said that was profoundly dumb.

And I did not make any decisions when I was a child. I began to doubt. It's an ongoing process. Right now, religion is losing badly.

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#169751
Jun 23, 2013
 
Favorite Adversary wrote:
<quoted text>
Therein is the problem in the church. Power. Not power over individuals minds per se (unless we're talking about Jehovah's Witnesses or other heretic cults). Among fundamentalist congregations, pastors often don't have the required education themselves and receive their ordination or credentials from a diploma mill as opposed to an accredited seminary or theological school. This problem seems to filter right down to Sunday school teachers who quite often are trusted laypersons within the congregation with very little theological education. The congregation is subject to the politics and comfort of the pastor. If the pastor isn't secure in his knowledge then he will stay with what he's comfortable with, and likewise, will try to keep his congregation "safe." This is comparable to the parent that won't let their child learn how to cross the street safely out of fear they'll be struck by a car. It's incredibly short sighted. Your question could have (and should have) been answered immediately with theological soundness.
Jesus overturned the money changers tables for more than one reason. It's a well known fact that rabbis in Jesus' time committed the entire Torah to memory, and they knew the verses and passages backwards and forwards, night or day, in any weather, etc, etc. In other words, they were experts in what the Torah said in black and white. What confused them was the way Jesus applied the scriptures. He often combined phrases and passages through his actions.
Caiaphas was the Roman installed High Priest that year. This is consistent with Roman practices of letting locals maintain positions of power in their communities so long as Rome's interests were served best. Caiaphas and his family were in charge of the Temple and the vendors there who sold sacrificial animals. There was price gouging and unethical rate exchanges going on. Jesus rode into Jerusalem on Palm Sunday. He entered from the Mount of Olives on a donkey. This is important, and the rabbis and other religious leaders knew this. It's importance comes from the prophecy of Zechariah 14: verses 4 and 21.(4)"And on that day, his feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem." (21)"And on that day there will no longer be traders in the Temple of the Lord."
Jesus was conveying different messages simultaneously here.
1)He was condemning the corruption of the religious-political leaders and making a statement that this judgement was coming from God. He was claiming divinity and the right to judge Israel, it's religious leadership, and the hearts of individuals.
2)The outer court of the Temple was for Gentiles. Gentiles were treated as a lower class by the religious leaders, much as fundamentalists do to unbelievers today. This was (and still is) wrong, and Jesus was ending it. Pagans and Gentiles were not allowed beyond the outer courtyard. When Jesus turned the tables (the origin of the saying) He was sending a loud message to the arrogance of the religious leaders: "The way is open for all to come to me!" You can imagine how the ruling party of the religious leaders would have reacted.
3)Jesus knew this event would seal His fate. He did this for that reason also. Because from that point on, the Pharisees were committed to killing him before Passover. They had to act immediately because the Romans would brutally suppress any form of insurrection, and the Pharisees were granted authority by Rome to maintain the peace, or Rome would.
Yeah... that woulda worked on me as a kid. Not now.

Thanks for taking the time to respond though.
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#169752
Jun 23, 2013
 

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Lelouch0 wrote:
What exactly does it mean when they call them sheep? Does that mean that they regard them as nothing more than sheep, or does that have an even scarier implication than I think? Does that mean they merely think of them as puppets in their religion?
The analogy refers to the fact that sheep were the most common farm animal in that culture. Domesticated sheep need a shepherd who will keep them safe from predators. In Jesus' day "predators" were false Messiahs and other cultural leaders who didn't have spiritual concerns.

“I see quantum effects”

Since: Jan 11

In the macro world.

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#169753
Jun 23, 2013
 

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timn17 wrote:
<quoted text>I am. Einstein was wrong about a lot of things. I don't deify him, so I am not forced to perform mental gymnastics when confronted by something he said that was profoundly dumb.

And I did not make any decisions when I was a child. I began to doubt. It's an ongoing process. Right now, religion is losing badly.
And it's people like Dave who continually reinforce our reasons for disbelief.

And he doesn't even realize it.

Since: Mar 11

Brighton East, Australia

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#169754
Jun 23, 2013
 

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mtimber wrote:
Why is it that many atheists are antagonistic against a God that does not exist and does not by implication challenge their reality?
Isn't antagonism towards a non existent being a sign of pure madness?
No one is antagonising a mythical God, we're antagonising each other!
And of course: Why do religious people on Topix try to antagonise Atheists at all when they're religious and should be living clean lives, with clean minds and shouldn't even associate with us because we may try to lie, and confuse them, cause after all Satan may be in us.

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#169755
Jun 23, 2013
 

“I see quantum effects”

Since: Jan 11

In the macro world.

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#169756
Jun 23, 2013
 
Dave Nelson wrote:
http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/ 2013/06/22/church-without-god- by-design/?hpt=hp_c2
Amen
Cool.

I need to start one here.

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#169757
Jun 23, 2013
 

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Aerobatty wrote:
<quoted text>
Cool.
I need to start one here.
As I have pointed out repeatedly, humanism is an offshoot of Christianity. Just another sect. Same values.

Jesus won.

People love to gather and share spiritual feelings. Only the name changes.

These sort of "non-believers" will be accepted by religious society because they share the basic values. Those are intelligent and rational people.

It's the nut cases as exemplified by so many Topix atheists that will be rejected.

“Think&Care”

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#169758
Jun 23, 2013
 

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Dave Nelson wrote:
If your religious training was based upon The Book of Einstein and you detected inconsistencies and errors like you did in the Bible, you would be railing against science right now.
Fortunately, science is not a religion based on a single book, nor even any collection of books. The ultimate authority of science is not the dictates of any particular scientists nor even any collection of scientists, but instead is based on actual observations of real-world behavior.

Einstein was wrong about a great many things. He initially thought the universe should be static, thereby missing one of the best potential predictions of his career. He consistently refused to accept quantum mechanics, even though it was making specific predictions that were verified by observations. In particular, many of his thought-experiments critical of QM have now actually been done and the results agree with QM and not with Einstein's intuitions.

So, yes, if a 'Book of Einstein' became a matter of 'faith', I would roundly criticize it for its mistakes and errors. But science itself is not made by the dictates of any one scientist, which is partly why it is self-correcting and is able to make progress over time.

“Think&Care”

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#169759
Jun 23, 2013
 

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Dave Nelson wrote:
<quoted text>
As I have pointed out repeatedly, humanism is an offshoot of Christianity. Just another sect. Same values.
Wrong. Humanism was an aspect of Greek and Roman philosophy long before Christianity came about. Christianity adopted many of the values seen in stoicism and neo-platonism, for example, which made it more 'moral'. Humanism is not derived from Christianity, but an addition to it adopted from more ancient viewpoints.

“Think&Care”

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#169760
Jun 23, 2013
 

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Favorite Adversary wrote:
<quoted text>
The analogy refers to the fact that sheep were the most common farm animal in that culture. Domesticated sheep need a shepherd who will keep them safe from predators. In Jesus' day "predators" were false Messiahs and other cultural leaders who didn't have spiritual concerns.
And the shepherd will later slaughter them for food or sell them to the local market. Interesting.

Since: Mar 11

Louisville, KY

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#169761
Jun 23, 2013
 
Humanism says to bring non believers before them and behead them?

Head injured senile old Dave
Dave Nelson wrote:
<quoted text>As I have pointed out repeatedly, humanism is an offshoot of Christianity. Just another sect. Same values.

Jesus won.

People love to gather and share spiritual feelings. Only the name changes.

These sort of "non-believers" will be accepted by religious society because they share the basic values. Those are intelligent and rational people.

It's the nut cases as exemplified by so many Topix atheists that will be rejected.

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#169762
Jun 23, 2013
 

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polymath257 wrote:
<quoted text>
Wrong. Humanism was an aspect of Greek and Roman philosophy long before Christianity came about. Christianity adopted many of the values seen in stoicism and neo-platonism, for example, which made it more 'moral'. Humanism is not derived from Christianity, but an addition to it adopted from more ancient viewpoints.
Bullshit.

Humanism of today is a direct descendant of Christian teachings.

Greek and Roman philosophy is not what is taught in today's world except in school classes. The present day evolved Christian ethos is the de facto basis of our social mores and even political thought.

That is just the way it is. Deal with it.

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#169763
Jun 23, 2013
 

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Dave Nelson wrote:
<quoted text>
Bullshit.
Humanism of today is a direct descendant of Christian teachings.
Greek and Roman philosophy is not what is taught in today's world except in school classes. The present day evolved Christian ethos is the de facto basis of our social mores and even political thought.
That is just the way it is. Deal with it.
Marked as the sh*tty creationist spam it is from the troll liar with no balls to speak of.

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#169764
Jun 23, 2013
 

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All creationists are bitter liars with no proof of god.

“I see quantum effects”

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#169765
Jun 23, 2013
 

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Dave Nelson wrote:
<quoted text>
As I have pointed out repeatedly, humanism is an offshoot of Christianity. Just another sect. Same values.
Jesus won.
People love to gather and share spiritual feelings. Only the name changes.
These sort of "non-believers" will be accepted by religious society because they share the basic values. Those are intelligent and rational people.
It's the nut cases as exemplified by so many Topix atheists that will be rejected.
You are the poster boy for sanity, Dave.

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#169766
Jun 23, 2013
 

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Aerobatty wrote:
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You are the poster boy for sanity, Dave.
Thank you, Batty. It is heartening to see you have the ability to discern that.

“ The Lord of delirious minds.”

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#169767
Jun 23, 2013
 

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Dave Nelson wrote:
<quoted text>
Bullshit.
Humanism of today is a direct descendant of Christian teachings.
Greek and Roman philosophy is not what is taught in today's world except in school classes. The present day evolved Christian ethos is the de facto basis of our social mores and even political thought.
That is just the way it is. Deal with it.
Actually Dave humanism teaches people to help make the world better now and to help the world survive ,humanists deny an afterlife or a savior that man is his own savior.
I think that is very different from Christian teaching.

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#169768
Jun 23, 2013
 

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Aura Mytha wrote:
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Actually Dave humanism teaches people to help make the world better now and to help the world survive ,humanists deny an afterlife or a savior that man is his own savior.
I think that is very different from Christian teaching.
Then you don't understand Christian thinking,

It is apparent most Topix atheist on here don't either. Blatant displays of emotional reaction to the perversions of ideas by those who use it for personal advancement, ignoring the underlying messages. Humanism and every other social/religious/political thought suffers from the same thing. Charlatans and demagogues. Topix atheists just jumped from one group to another. Hardly "free thinkers". Emotional reactionists. Putty in the hands of those that know how to mold them.
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#169769
Jun 23, 2013
 

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KittenKoder wrote:
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One simple example, ancient Egyptian mythology is much older than your bibles are, and there are two stories in there that when combined form your entire "Jesus" myth. Imhotep and Horus.
I'm sorry Kitten, but this is false. Jesus as a myth is a lazy argument of desperation on the part of those who lack historical knowledge. I know my assertion will not change your mind, and that's your right. The parallel "Jesus as myth" religions were debunked years and years ago, and have only recently resurfaced within the last few years to influence a very ignorant audience that is unfamiliar with these ludicrous claims.

The skeptical scholars of the Jesus debate all acknowledge he lived and was executed by the Romans. Gerd Ludemann and Bart Ehrman have both been very consistent in their research even though neither believes in the deity of Jesus. They have both characterized the entire "Jesus as myth" as being a very poor and lazy intellectual argument.

My question to you is this:

In both Matthew and Mark, Jesus is recorded as saying "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" as he was dying on the cross. This is a very unheroic thing to say for a leader of a religious movement. All the other religions like Islam or Buddhism have their founders dying peacefully or with heroic words, and not executed as traitors by an evil oppressive occupying government.

If you were going to start a movement or help it along, would you promote your founder in such a negative light as dying such a shameful death and then crying out in such a manner?

I wouldn't. In the context of the society at that time or at any time within 400 years of the crucifixion either way, it wouldn't make sense to write propaganda this way to promote a religion. It would fail.

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