Atheism requires as much faith as religion?

Atheism requires as much faith as religion? bearvspuma : The only problem with this rationalization is that ita s assuming all athiests are so because theya re intelligent in the ways of science and reasoning and all people that believe in a form of god are unintelligent. Full Story
blacklagoon

Brookline, MA

#166216 May 28, 2013
Ray puelerico wrote:
<quoted text>
again the idea that God exists can be defended through various arguments, leaving his existance in dispute. therefor the facts arent so clear cut. so the absence of evidence can not equal evidence of absence. second, personal experience is still a viable peice of evidence unless you can come up with comprehencive defeaters of those experiences. people dont have reason to doubt personal experience of every day matters until the are presented with defeaters of those experiences. and as far as morals go,we can discuss that further if youd like. i firmly believe that morals are a pretty strong indicator of the existnce of God.
All of those various arguments involving the existence of God, are arguments without facts, so become totally worthless. The LACK of facts concerning the existence of God is very clear cut, there are none.

Of course it depends on what kind of personal experience a person has. if someone told me they were at the beach and saw a whale breaching off shore i would lean toward believing them as this is something that has certainly happened in the past on a number of occasions, and all of the elements of the story grounded in reality. Now if you told me God came down last night and spoke to you and then physically touched you on the head, I would be compelled to not believe you as none of the elements are grounded in reality. I would simply chalk it up to you having a serious delusion. The mental institutions are full of people who will swear that there are demons around every corner, would you accept these personal experiences as factual?

Mankind has been on the planet for approximately 200,000 give or take. Jesus carrying the word of God appeared a mere 2,000 years ago. Where did mankind draw his morals for some 198,000 years? Cannibalism is view by our present society as highly immoral, but not that long ago in New Guinea, it was considered appropriate and a means of drawing strength from your enemies. There are very few moral absolutes.

If one were to combine the idea that morals are an indicator for the existence of God and the writings found in the bible which are said to be the word of God, then contradictions emerge. Without going into all of the immorality found in the bible, we only have to look at the FACT that God condones slavery. Most would agree that regardless of the society, one person owning another and imposing their will on them is immoral.

“I Am No One Else”

Since: Apr 12

Seattle

#166217 May 28, 2013
havent forgotten wrote:
<quoted text> I gotta see the ethics and the politics first, before I admire someone, however brilliant.I also want to see the style of the honesty, and make sure the brutality of it was not nasty to people who did not ask for it.
I have a problem with lying to anyone for any reason. I cannot do it, and thus hold anyone who is always honest in high regards because of that. I had made a career out of lying, and it weighs heavy on me now, I even lied when I was young to avoid being harmed, but now I realize that those lies also harmed me more than I would have been had I told the truth. Ethical behavior is important, but many people can lie and seem ethical because of the lie, when a person is brutally honest, you know their ethics are what they claim them to be. Politics is a mess anyway, so I disregard that completely.

Since: May 13

Hightstown, NJ

#166218 May 28, 2013
havent forgotten wrote:
<quoted text> I gotta see the ethics and the politics first, before I admire someone, however brilliant.I also want to see the style of the honesty, and make sure the brutality of it was not nasty to people who did not ask for it.
as a debater, hitchens was a devestating attacker. but in his liffe, he was described as a great guy. he was honest enough to make one squirm lol. i respect him for his way, although i wouldnt go as fare as to admire all his ways. that being said, ill still miss his debates.

“YO BOO”

Since: Sep 07

land of BOO

#166220 May 28, 2013
Aerobatty wrote:
<quoted text>
Scary.
I tell you when it will be scary! being on your death bed crying Jesus, I didn't mean it I-I-I was just doing what that ol devil told me to do... Im so sorry... I-I-I want to be on your side Jesus not that mean ol devil... I love you

“YO BOO”

Since: Sep 07

land of BOO

#166221 May 28, 2013
kadtrack wrote:
youtube.com/watch?v=LSjTpy09KQ g No Luck
No Faith needed Religon is crap
you know this how?

“YO BOO”

Since: Sep 07

land of BOO

#166222 May 28, 2013
macumazahn wrote:
<quoted text>Code for "I don't have an answer. That I'm prepared to give, anyway."
mac thats a dumb question you asked... FACT

“YO BOO”

Since: Sep 07

land of BOO

#166223 May 28, 2013
KittenKoder wrote:
<quoted text>
We have evidence that Hitchens existed though, the two are not comparable.
We have evidence of Jesus Christ you just don't believe it.. The unsaved often want a "sign" from God. This is in spite of the testimony of creation, their conscience, the Bible, and the Christian. The cross is the only thing that can truly convince a sinner of the reality of who Jesus is. Once they understand that the holes in His hands and His feet are there because of their own sin, they will fall at His feet and cry, "My Lord and my God....

“I Am No One Else”

Since: Apr 12

Seattle

#166224 May 28, 2013
T-Town Clown wrote:
<quoted text>We have evidence of Jesus Christ you just don't believe it.. The unsaved often want a "sign" from God. This is in spite of the testimony of creation, their conscience, the Bible, and the Christian. The cross is the only thing that can truly convince a sinner of the reality of who Jesus is. Once they understand that the holes in His hands and His feet are there because of their own sin, they will fall at His feet and cry, "My Lord and my God....
So then where is this evidence?
blacklagoon

Brookline, MA

#166225 May 28, 2013
T-Town Clown wrote:
<quoted text>We have evidence of Jesus Christ you just don't believe it.. The unsaved often want a "sign" from God. This is in spite of the testimony of creation, their conscience, the Bible, and the Christian. The cross is the only thing that can truly convince a sinner of the reality of who Jesus is. Once they understand that the holes in His hands and His feet are there because of their own sin, they will fall at His feet and cry, "My Lord and my God....
There are NO contemporary accounts of Jesus outside of the bible. Everything written about Jesus was written decades after his supposed death. There were many preacher roaming the country side during the time he was supposed to have lived and more than a few had the same name, Jesus. There is No physical evidence, nothing written about him during the time of his life, and as I said, NO CONTEMPORARY ACCOUNT FOR JESUS OUTSIDE OF THE BIBLE. Anecdotal testimony, stories decades after his supposed life, none of these counts as evidence. Produce some evidence or say not much difference between Jesus and werewolves.
blacklagoon

Brookline, MA

#166226 May 28, 2013
havent forgotten wrote:
<quoted text> Please read my two comments above. I do not agree with you that it is a fact that no God exists. I do not think we have agreed on an adequate definition of God so that we agree on what we are even discussing.
I also do not think that the absence of evidence is the evidence of absence.
I think it is rational not to believe in God, but arrogant to claim one knows there is no God (especially when there is no adequate definition of a God, and not enough understanding of what would constitute knowledge, as differing from even sensible opinion).
I am an agnostic (not making a knowledge claim) atheist (not a believer in any God I have ever heard of). I doubt that anyone knows or can know whether there is something that can reasonably be called God. But in general I prefer the opinion that there is not, given the usual very unacceptable (to me) descriptions of God and gods and their behavior, and also the usual totally unconvincing arguments for the existence of such Gods.
Again, I do believe one sort of God is totally impossible, and in a visceral sense of knowing, I feel that I know it does not exist:
that is the socalled allgoodallpowerful God. The existence of pain rules that one out, in my view.
also for fun, I advance a superpantheist definition of a God that does exist - that God is a name for everything that exists. It has the big advantage of being a bigger entity and bigger claimant for the title of a God that most others, and dwarfs them by comparison - even a socalled Creator God, who does not seem to include its own creation, and thus would be inferior to the All that Exists.
This definition should allow folks to minimize the claims of such inferior Gods as the God of the three big monotheistic religions.
My other acceptable God would be a very nice border collie, but that is my bias.
By saying we have no agreed on a definition of God, you already have a preconceived notion that he exists. if you were truly open minded you would NOT feel it necessary to assign God to anything, as you have by saying God may be everything. Why even entertain the existence of God, what is there to be gained? People believe in God for no good reason. Fear of death, comfort in times of adversity, because you have been brought up to believe, because you feel small and insignificant and have to believe there is something greater, because you are unable to cope with gaps in science and feel the need to fill these gaps with God as an answer. NONE of these are good reason to believe.
blacklagoon

Brookline, MA

#166227 May 28, 2013
Ray puelerico wrote:
<quoted text>
again the idea that God exists can be defended through various arguments, leaving his existance in dispute. therefor the facts arent so clear cut. so the absence of evidence can not equal evidence of absence. second, personal experience is still a viable peice of evidence unless you can come up with comprehencive defeaters of those experiences. people dont have reason to doubt personal experience of every day matters until the are presented with defeaters of those experiences. and as far as morals go,we can discuss that further if youd like. i firmly believe that morals are a pretty strong indicator of the existnce of God.
I'm always intrigued by the question....What is there to be gained by a belief in God? What REAL advantage is there in believing in God? If we reject the argument that we derive our morals from a belief in God, the what advantage is left?
blacklagoon

Brookline, MA

#166228 May 28, 2013
T-Town Clown wrote:
<quoted text>We have evidence of Jesus Christ you just don't believe it.. The unsaved often want a "sign" from God. This is in spite of the testimony of creation, their conscience, the Bible, and the Christian. The cross is the only thing that can truly convince a sinner of the reality of who Jesus is. Once they understand that the holes in His hands and His feet are there because of their own sin, they will fall at His feet and cry, "My Lord and my God....
So if I really go at it and sin a whole lot, does that mean more holes in Jesus? If so, I'm on my way to sinning none stop!!! I really love sinning, so much fun!!!

Since: Mar 11

Lexington, KY

#166229 May 28, 2013
:) high five!
KittenKoder wrote:
<quoted text>We have evidence that Hitchens existed though, the two are not comparable.
Thinking

Sturminster Newton, UK

#166230 May 28, 2013
You're a Poe or a retard or both.

The bible says jesus killed a fig tree because it didn't produce figs out of season.
JesusMyLord wrote:
<quoted text>Because your gay sex is not part of his design. If your car did not run, would you let it sit there or take it to the shop to be fixed so it could run like it was designed to run.
Jesus made it clear and it was a powerful message. When the fig tree failed to produce and function as it was designed to, Jesus cursed it. When Noah built the Ark, who brought in two of a kind, male and female, because that is proper functionality.
Thinking

Sturminster Newton, UK

#166231 May 28, 2013
Why?
RiversideRedneck wrote:
<quoted text>
God is concerned about gay sex??
blacklagoon

Brookline, MA

#166232 May 28, 2013
T-Town Clown wrote:
<quoted text>I see you are still a Jesus Christ! christian hater...
I can't hate that which does not exist, how foolish!!!!
blacklagoon

Brookline, MA

#166233 May 28, 2013
T-Town Clown wrote:
<quoted text>I tell you when it will be scary! being on your death bed crying Jesus, I didn't mean it I-I-I was just doing what that ol devil told me to do... Im so sorry... I-I-I want to be on your side Jesus not that mean ol devil... I love you
Boy are you projecting....your so petrified of death, why does it scare you so? Death is part of life, we all have our turn and then make way for those that follow. Why are you so frighted of something so natural and inevitable? Of course no one wants to give up his turn, to die, but creating imaginary beings and magical places to comfort you is childish. Man up, face death like a man when your turn is up.

“ The Lord of delirious minds.”

Since: Dec 10

Location hidden

#166234 May 28, 2013
blacklagoon wrote:
<quoted text>So if I really go at it and sin a whole lot, does that mean more holes in Jesus? If so, I'm on my way to sinning none stop!!! I really love sinning, so much fun!!!

Since: May 13

Hightstown, NJ

#166235 May 28, 2013
blacklagoon wrote:
<quoted text>All of those various arguments involving the existence of God, are arguments without facts, so become totally worthless. The LACK of facts concerning the existence of God is very clear cut, there are none.
Of course it depends on what kind of personal experience a person has. if someone told me they were at the beach and saw a whale breaching off shore i would lean toward believing them as this is something that has certainly happened in the past on a number of occasions, and all of the elements of the story grounded in reality. Now if you told me God came down last night and spoke to you and then physically touched you on the head, I would be compelled to not believe you as none of the elements are grounded in reality. I would simply chalk it up to you having a serious delusion. The mental institutions are full of people who will swear that there are demons around every corner, would you accept these personal experiences as factual?
my answers will be kinda breif, im exausted from the gym, so i apologize. well, i wont go into the philosophy of what constitutes a fact, but i will say that there are evidences that require serious thought and not quick dismissal. you havent stated what exactly would constitute a fact, given the thoughts youve presented. for example, you stated that a fact is something that is indisputably the case, and it is also a definition ive found in my websters. so when we analyse the statements youre making, you assume that when something isnt sufficiently established, then the opposite is fact. but what you are forgeting is that it is nigh impossible to establish a universal negative, especially with the method youre using. instead of using the word fact, i think that maybe you should switch more towards evidence, as i think this will be more fruitful to the discussion. further, i look at the statement you made and i see it as flawed because we are speaking in terms of factual things. so when i present to you any evidence, the evidence has a grounds in reality, by using all kinds of facts. like morals. it is a fact that such a thing as morals exist. its not that there arent facts in my arguments, its that you dont agree with the point im making by using certain facts, or dont hold some ideas to be factual. we should not cut off our own arguments roots in presenting our arguments, its not fruitful.

now, personal experience is usually taken into consideration given the background information. so you are right in your analagy. i have no problem in saying that believing someones personal experience may be difficult given certain ideas and personal views. for example, if i went to the beach and saw a shark stuck in a small cove with no visable way for it to get in or out, it is highly unlikely that people will believe me. but take the idea that theres a shark there and multiply it by 5 people, and the idea becomes more plausible. now thats how you would handle a material personal experience. now an immaterial personal experience that has to do with a mental experience or a feeling, thats something that also has to be taken into consideration given the background info plus the likelihood of that event, minus your own personal presuppositions. now, as for your example of those who see demons around every corner, again, we have defeaters of those experiences, combined with an objective standard for judging these things. thats why the average person of faith may have "religious experiences" while another person may experience a horrible mental delusion. we have a standard for judging that.

Since: May 13

Hightstown, NJ

#166236 May 28, 2013
blacklagoon wrote:
<quoted text>Mankind has been on the planet for approximately 200,000 give or take. Jesus carrying the word of God appeared a mere 2,000 years ago. Where did mankind draw his morals for some 198,000 years? Cannibalism is view by our present society as highly immoral, but not that long ago in New Guinea, it was considered appropriate and a means of drawing strength from your enemies. There are very few moral absolutes.
If one were to combine the idea that morals are an indicator for the existence of God and the writings found in the bible which are said to be the word of God, then contradictions emerge. Without going into all of the immorality found in the bible, we only have to look at the FACT that God condones slavery. Most would agree that regardless of the society, one person owning another and imposing their will on them is immoral.
ok, in this one youve raised 3 seperate issues. so ill adress them by point.

1:where did we draw our morals from before christ?

the biblical worldview states that the morals God set in place are "written on the hearts of man". youll never hear me say that one must know God to be moral, because not even the bible says that.

2. moral ideas differ around the world in various times and places.

well, lets look at your statement as a whole for a moment. if there is no objective standard holding all men accountable, then is cannibalism wrong? we say that our society doesnt accept that behavior, but then how do you tell these people that its wrong? on an evolutionary world view, were just animals, and sharks eat other sharks, snakes eat other snakes, chimps eat other monkeys, so why not have humans eat other humans? we can say that we dont like it, but we really cant say that its wrong. so who are we to impose our cultural moral standards on others? all they have to say is "says who?", and now we are left with a might makes right delema. the only way you can have something really be wrong is to have an authority greater than your own. an analagy would be if you have a sibling. if you tell that sibling to do something, they arent really obligated to do it. but if your parent tells you to do something, then you goshdarn better do it lol. the difference is about authority. so when we have morals, by whos authority are we claiming that anyone else is wrong?

3. the bible condones slavery, therefor god isnt the source of moral standards.

now here we are with the delema i presented. now, im not going to go into the hebrew lanuage or the cultural ideas that make the idea that the bible condones slavery wrong. ill get to that soon enough. but you state that slavery is w no matter what culture. so you agree that there are some objective moral values. and if there is so much as one objective moral value, then there has to be a grounds above humanity to ground that belief in. so what is there above humanity? well, the only one above man is God. i would go on further or in more detail, but im exausted lol. i think ive said enough for now. lol forgive me if i dont get back to u soon, i need a nap.

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