Atheism requires as much faith as religion?

Atheism requires as much faith as religion? bearvspuma : The only problem with this rationalization is that ita s assuming all athiests are so because theya re intelligent in the ways of science and reasoning and all people that believe in a form of god are unintelligent. Full Story

“Ditat Deus”

Since: Jul 12

Location hidden

#158212 Mar 3, 2013
Aura Mytha wrote:
<quoted text>
Oh gee wiz, do you really think this knowledge comes from magazine articles and atheist websites?
It in fact comes from 150+ years of study and research.
You are a likable guy, but I find you a bit over zealous and rabidly a fundamental Christian most likely of Baptist origin as they are the ones so rabidly against the science of evolution and so very touchy on origin. Other than Jehovah Witnesses who think that man came from god mating with hominids which I find even more bizarre.
Knowledge, knowledge, you keep talking about knowledge.... There is no knowledge about abiogenesis.

None.

After thousands, tens of thousands and probably hundreds of thousands of tests & studies worldwide, nobody has ever had any evidence that supports that theory.

Since: May 10

Location hidden

#158213 Mar 3, 2013
blacklagoon wrote:
<quoted text>Ok, I'll simplify my point. Simple point for the simple mind. Your God has the power to intervene and stop suffering...Yes or No?
Your God can see the future...yes or no?
In seeing the future your God knows exactly what is going to happen,,,,,,yes or no?
Does your God see the suffering and torment these little children go through each day dying from starvation,....yes or no?
Did you God see the events happening at Sandy Hook...yes or no?
Was your God able to see this horrific event before it happened...yes or no?
Was it in your Gods power to intervene in that event and save those innocent children...yes or no?
Simple yes or no questions, even redneck could manage these....have at it!!!
OK! Here we go!

1. Not sure
2. Not sure
3. Not sure
4. Not sure
5. Not sure
6. Not sure
7. Not sure

I hope my answers are helpful.

I have one for you.

What information do you have about my conception of God that would prompt you to ask those questions?

None? That's what I thought.

“Why does my ignorance”

Since: Mar 11

justify your deity?

#158214 Mar 3, 2013
Imhotep wrote:
<quoted text>
Humans have the idea of right and wrong imbedded in them by their own brains, as well as their upbringing and society. Atheists do good, not out of fear of reprisal, but because it's the right thing to do. We value family, society, culture, and, of course, freedom. Many of us will - and have - defended these values with our lives. Examples:
1) Many Catholics make judgement calls on moral decisions against their church. For example, some use birth control or have abortions, despite what their church preaches. If these people can make moral decisions despite what their church preaches, then atheists can make similar choices without a church altogether.
2) Slavery was not only acceptable 200 years ago, it was considered a good deed by many, and defended using the bible. The bible was also used to justify the Holocaust, the Crusades, and the Spanish Inquisition.
Why is this relevant? Because it shows that the bible can be used to defend even the most immoral and unethical ideals, and is therefore not an adequate yardstick to measure moral or ethical behavior.
3) Finally, mention bad religious people. Remember that Hitler was a religious Catholic, and that Jeffrey Dahmer said grace before he ate his victims. Mention also that one need only open a newspaper to find yet another story about allegations against priests for sexual misconduct, often with children. Don't forget our good friends Jim Bakker (who swindled millions from his flock) and Jimmy Swaggart (asked for forgiveness only after being caught using prostitutes).
4) Always couple these statements with the fact that, while atheists make up 8-10% of the population at large, we only make up 1% of the population in prison. I mean, think of it, what if 8-10% of the population (on top of all the religious criminals) decided it was OK to steal, rape, and murder? We'd have chaos! These will serve to prove that religion and ethical behavior are not even slightly related.
Expect these statements to piss off the theists, and this is where you must mention that what you said is verifiable and that their statement is openly prejudicial against 50 million Americans. This is the opportunity to open their eyes to the fact that just because we're different from them doesn't make us inherently bad.
Ok.

I kind of disagree with you on the concept of "right and wrong" being embedded in our heads. I'd suggest there are "mechanisms of learning morality" in our brains and that those that favor group cohesion and us/them classifications are more easily learnable. Otherwise, you're left trying to explain why it was moral for the Mayans to sacrifice children but not for Americans.

“Ditat Deus”

Since: Jul 12

Location hidden

#158215 Mar 3, 2013
blacklagoon wrote:
Your God has the power to intervene and stop suffering...Yes or No?
Yes. But that would take away our free will.
Your God can see the future...yes or no?
Not exactly, He *exists* in the future, and the present, and the past. But for the sake of your ignorance, we'll say yes.
In seeing the future your God knows exactly what is going to happen,,,,,,yes or no?


For you, yes.
Does your God see the suffering and torment these little children go through each day dying from starvation,....yes or no?
Yes.
Did you God see the events happening at Sandy Hook...yes or no?
Yes.
Was your God able to see this horrific event before it happened...yes or no?
Yes.
Was it in your Gods power to intervene in that event and save those innocent children...yes or no?
Yes.
Simple yes or no questions, even redneck could manage these....have at it!!!
(cue the "free will is a myth" argument....)

“Why does my ignorance”

Since: Mar 11

justify your deity?

#158216 Mar 3, 2013
RiversideRedneck wrote:
<quoted text>
Eh, pretty good.
But "Atheists don't do anything special"?
True, except spend A LOT of time talking about gods they say they don't believe exist...
Most atheists don't. All of my atheist friends think I'm stupid for wasting my time on these sites.

Also, the atheists you know are mostly from Christian culture - they've left that part of their life behind, but are sensitive to just how Christian their culture is now, how much it runs deep in so many parts of American society, etc. So they talk about it - many might still be working out what it means to have given up the dominant religion in your country.

Trust me, atheists in Japan are totally different. They still perform Buddhist and Shinto rituals for the social meaning - they just don't care or think about the deities and religious meaning behind the rituals.

“Ditat Deus”

Since: Jul 12

Location hidden

#158217 Mar 3, 2013
Hidingfromyou wrote:
<quoted text>
"proof" really is hard for you, isn't it?
No, that's not what I said to Buck. I discussed the situation with him from the point of view of his "IF" - if we can never demonstrate abiogenesis. That was where his discussion started from.
However, as I wrote, all our sciences predict abiogenesis. Further, biochemistry and molecular biology demonstrate it's the only likely explanation - did you read Aero's excellent news piece? Moreover, the biochemists are testing possibilities.
No, proof isn't a difficult concept for me. It's evidence or argument helping to establish a fact or truth.

You say abiogenesis is "the only likely explanation". This is why I say people like you are indoctrinated to think the way you do.

People like you firmly believe that abiogenesis is "the only likely explanation" and no doubt your test "results" will confirm that....

“Ditat Deus”

Since: Jul 12

Location hidden

#158218 Mar 3, 2013
Hidingfromyou wrote:
<quoted text>
Ok.
I kind of disagree with you on the concept of "right and wrong" being embedded in our heads. I'd suggest there are "mechanisms of learning morality" in our brains and that those that favor group cohesion and us/them classifications are more easily learnable. Otherwise, you're left trying to explain why it was moral for the Mayans to sacrifice children but not for Americans.
Damn you and your logic!

Since: May 10

Location hidden

#158219 Mar 3, 2013
macumazahn wrote:
<quoted text>Oh, Buck.
And at one point yesterday, for one brief, shining moment, I agreed with you, and said so.
However you push the limits, at one point the universe contained no life.
Now it does.
Let's assume I take your word for that.

Do you know if the universe, at its inception, contained properties designed with the propensity to produce life?

This would require, of course, some intelligence independent of the universe in space and time.

And if the elements and properties present in the exploding birth of our universe had this built-in propensity for life, how would the present picture differ, scientifically, from what we observe today?

I submit it would not necessarily differ at all. The possible exception might be the signs indicative of intelligent design.

But wait! Is that even an exception? Some conclude it is there.

“Ditat Deus”

Since: Jul 12

Location hidden

#158220 Mar 3, 2013
Hidingfromyou wrote:

Most atheists don't. All of my atheist friends think I'm stupid for wasting my time on these sites.
If I was an atheist, I'd agree with your friends. I'm not an atheist and I've spend all of maybe 5 minutes of my life on atheist websites - usually just to get a laugh.
Also, the atheists you know are mostly from Christian culture - they've left that part of their life behind, but are sensitive to just how Christian their culture is now, how much it runs deep in so many parts of American society, etc. So they talk about it - many might still be working out what it means to have given up the dominant religion in your country.
Trust me, atheists in Japan are totally different. They still perform Buddhist and Shinto rituals for the social meaning - they just don't care or think about the deities and religious meaning behind the rituals.
Do they try to stop any and all Buddhist or Shinto rituals? Especially those in public? Atheists do that in America a lot. They claim to be tolerant, but most of them only seem to be tolerant of people that agrees with their opinions.

We have a big white cross here, on Mt Rubidoux. An atheist complained about it because it sits on city property. The FFRC filed a lawsuit against Riverside to have it removed, even though the majority of Riversidians wanted the cross to stay - even one atheist friend of mine. He said the cross is meaningless to him except for bring a city landmark (it's been there since 1907). The city is selling the property to a private owner to shut up the FFRC.

Since: May 10

Location hidden

#158221 Mar 3, 2013
Hidingfromyou wrote:
<quoted text>
Ok.
I kind of disagree with you on the concept of "right and wrong" being embedded in our heads.
I have a piece of glass from a beer bottle embedded in my head.

Also, a link out of a motorcycle chain.

I would get them removed, but it's a hoot to peck on them with a spoon in time with the music in clubs.

“Why does my ignorance”

Since: Mar 11

justify your deity?

#158222 Mar 3, 2013
Aerobatty wrote:
<quoted text>
Hi hiding!
You going to be back for a while, or just taking a break from reality?
Always good to see you.
Still glowing?
Glowing more, I'm afraid. Small vermin sometimes perish in the beams!

I don't think I live in reality anymore :)

I always miss you, though, Aero.

Since: May 10

Location hidden

#158223 Mar 3, 2013
Hidingfromyou wrote:
<quoted text>
Most atheists don't. All of my atheist friends think I'm stupid for wasting my time on these sites.
Also, the atheists you know are mostly from Christian culture - they've left that part of their life behind, but are sensitive to just how Christian their culture is now, how much it runs deep in so many parts of American society, etc. So they talk about it - many might still be working out what it means to have given up the dominant religion in your country.
Trust me, atheists in Japan are totally different. They still perform Buddhist and Shinto rituals for the social meaning - they just don't care or think about the deities and religious meaning behind the rituals.
Sounds like being married.

“Why does my ignorance”

Since: Mar 11

justify your deity?

#158224 Mar 3, 2013
RiversideRedneck wrote:
<quoted text>
Abiogenesis is the theory that life can arise spontaneously from non-life molecules under proper conditions.
There is no evidence for spontaneous life.
Scientists can't find a starting point for their theoretical evolutionary chain.
But you buy it hook, line & sinker.
Now you're confusing an outdated idea with contemporary science. That's cute.

Do you know what evidence is? Do you know what constitutes evidence for abiogenesis?

Why do you think science predicts abiogenesis? How do you think it's being investigated?

Since: May 10

Location hidden

#158225 Mar 3, 2013
RiversideRedneck wrote:
<quoted text>
Damn you and your logic!
Sorry, man.

“Why does my ignorance”

Since: Mar 11

justify your deity?

#158226 Mar 3, 2013
RiversideRedneck wrote:
<quoted text>
Eh?
"Life started from nothing out of the mind of a god."
...then...
"Still the same nothing out of nothing."
O_o
God isn't nothing...
He's your imagined being.

“H-o-o-o-o-o-o-ld on thar!”

Since: Sep 08

The Borderland of Sol

#158227 Mar 3, 2013
Buck Crick wrote:
<quoted text>
Let's assume I take your word for that.
Do you know if the universe, at its inception, contained properties designed with the propensity to produce life?
This would require, of course, some intelligence independent of the universe in space and time.
And if the elements and properties present in the exploding birth of our universe had this built-in propensity for life, how would the present picture differ, scientifically, from what we observe today?
I submit it would not necessarily differ at all. The possible exception might be the signs indicative of intelligent design.
But wait! Is that even an exception? Some conclude it is there.
Hmm.

You're introducing something of your own here - this "propensity to produce life".

What's that, and is there any need to assume one?

Since: Mar 11

Chicago, IL

#158229 Mar 3, 2013
Lmfao! Nope.

Anyways even if it was true which it's not, that was many moons ago fatboy. Now you are a butt ugly chump who has spent more time in mental wards screaming at hallucinations and sh1tting yourself than your imaginary football player ever spent on the field.

You aren't impressing anyone with your lies fatboy. Now get to the treadmill.
Buck Crick wrote:
<quoted text>
Gee, thanks for the physical fitness advice.
I was a 3-year starting lineman on an SEC ranked team, and made the Cincinnati Bengals starting offensive line. I out-lifted everyone on the team, including the great Anthony Munoz.
Coach Bill Curry, who coached at Alabama, Kentucky, and played in the NFL commented to Sports Illustrated that I had, at 6'7, 315, "the most impressive football body he had ever seen - college or pro."
But I'll try your advice. To be in the position to advise me, you must be one hell of a specimen.
I tip my hat. Please don't hurt me.

“Ditat Deus”

Since: Jul 12

Location hidden

#158230 Mar 3, 2013
Buck Crick wrote:
<quoted text>
Sorry, man.
ARRRGH!

“Ditat Deus”

Since: Jul 12

Location hidden

#158231 Mar 3, 2013
Hidingfromyou wrote:
<quoted text>
Now you're confusing an outdated idea with contemporary science. That's cute.
Do you know what evidence is? Do you know what constitutes evidence for abiogenesis?
Why do you think science predicts abiogenesis? How do you think it's being investigated?
No, no, no and another no.

“Why does my ignorance”

Since: Mar 11

justify your deity?

#158232 Mar 3, 2013
Buck Crick wrote:
To say "evolution has not been disproven" has exactly zero meaning. None at all. It is white noise.
It has the same meaninglessness as saying "evolution is fact". No meaning at all. Nothing is said there.
The reason for this is that "evolution" lacks a specific meaning. It can be employed as one of a flowchart of differing concepts, depending on which most benefits the proponent of the theory at the time.
Evolutionists Louis Charles Birch & Paul R. Ehrlich stated in the journal Nature:
"Our theory of evolution has become, as Popper described, one which cannot be refuted by any possible observations. Every conceivable observation can be fitted into it."
Evolution is true. Evolution is false.- Both statements have the exact same meaning. Which is none.
False. To say that a theory has not been disproved carries meaning in science.

Evolution the observation is fact. Evolution the theory is theory.

Ehrlich wrote that in 1967. He's kind of right. To disprove the entirety of evolutionary theory, you'd need to observe some deity creating species, show a species or genes popping into existence for no discernible reason (or a magical one), show that resources are unlimited, etc.

But the details of the theory can be disproved and are tested for that. Hence, the theory changes as we understand more. The ToE now and 100 years ago is quite different.

The thing is, there are no competing theories in science. No competing ideas offer a framework with which to generate testable hypotheses - none.

I know you claim that ID is capable of that, but it can never answer the ultimate questsions of "why" except with "some designer did it." At that point, you're no longer doing science but speculative fiction.

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