Atheism requires as much faith as religion?

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Atheism requires as much faith as religion? bearvspuma : The only problem with this rationalization is that ita s assuming all athiests are so because theya re intelligent in the ways of science and reasoning and all people that believe in a form of god are unintelligent.
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Since: Sep 08

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#153065
Feb 10, 2013
 
Catcher1 wrote:
<quoted text>
Nope, not for me.
Mars is inhospitable.
I'm heading to San Jose del Cabo.
Lots of fish and crustaceans, and it's the whale migration season through March.
Great weather, too.
I spent a bit of this time of year up the other way in Monterey back in 1976, and spent a lot of that around Point Sur. Watching the whales, seals, and sea otters. A beautiful spot. Big change in temperature around that bend.

Since: Jan 13

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#153066
Feb 10, 2013
 
macumazahn wrote:
<quoted text>You are aware that, on a quantum level, there are uncaused effects?
That is a matter open to much debate.

A mathematical model that cannot account for a cause, does not prove there is no cause.

It simply states that it cannot account.

And that is as far as anyone can take quantum mechanics.

Which leaves us with the next question:

Do you have any empirical evidence of an uncaused event?

Since: Jan 13

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#153067
Feb 10, 2013
 
Aura Mytha wrote:
The cause of the universe is an unsolvable mystery,
Is this an absolute statement of truth?

“Think&Care”

Since: Oct 07

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#153068
Feb 10, 2013
 
mtimber wrote:
<quoted text>
So you know that you cannot absolutely know.
Yet you absolutely know that God does not exist...
But back to the point.
If you only believe that for which you have forensic empirical evidence for, than I assume you do not believe in the laws of logic?
As they are non-material and universal, but cannot be examined forensically...
There are several different types of logic: propositional logic, quantifier logic, modal logic, fuzzy logic. Each has different assumptions. They are not universal since they don't apply in the realm of any of the others. They are axiom systems.

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#153069
Feb 10, 2013
 
polymath257 wrote:
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I never said that. At this point, the evidence doesn't support the existence of a deity.
<quoted text>
Logic, like mathematics, is an abstract system. I believe logical statements when they follow from the axioms of logic via the rules of deduction.
How do you deduct that the law of non-contradiction is universal empirically?

“Think&Care”

Since: Oct 07

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#153070
Feb 10, 2013
 
mtimber wrote:
<quoted text>
That is a matter open to much debate.
A mathematical model that cannot account for a cause, does not prove there is no cause.
It simply states that it cannot account.
And that is as far as anyone can take quantum mechanics.
Which leaves us with the next question:
Do you have any empirical evidence of an uncaused event?
First define what *you* mean when you say something is caused.

yes, the empirical evidence shows that causality, as typically defined (a cause necessarily implies the effect) is false. Look at Bell's inequality and the experiments supporting it.

“In the beginning God Created..”

Since: Feb 12

Southern Illinois

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#153071
Feb 10, 2013
 
macumazahn wrote:
<quoted text>Nope.
If you can claim that Adam Lanza's murders weren't religiously motivated (even though he was a Christian), you must extend the same reasoning to all of those you cite.
Their atheism was incidental.
How do you come to the conclusion that Adam Lanza was a Christian?

Was Judas Iscariot a Christian?

Because he walked into a Church?

If thatís the case then anyone that walks onto Harvardís campus can claim,ďI have been to Harvard.Ē

But I would say there is a big difference from visiting a top University and graduating from that University with honors.

One can be a visitor or even a regular attendee to a church. Does that mean they are a Christian?

The only way to tell if someone is indeed a Christian is by their own declaration that Jesus Christ is Lord and Savior. And they follow and obey Christ teachings.

Adam Lanza may have been a hearer of the word of God but he was not a doer. Obedience is a requisite to being a Christian.

Now the scripture has very defiantly defined where a unrepeated murderer stands with God.

Revelation 21:8

But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

James 1:22

But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

“Think&Care”

Since: Oct 07

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#153072
Feb 10, 2013
 

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mtimber wrote:
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Nice attempt at a rescuing device.
Your argument against the First Cause so far is:
1. I don't know what it is, but I know isn't God.
2. There was a non-causal cause.
Wrong yet again.

My point is that every caused event has a *physical* cause. This is supported by all the evidence. So any initial cause is a physical, uncaused event. I separately, and independently of this argument, claim that quantum events are examples of physical, uncaused events.

“In the beginning God Created..”

Since: Feb 12

Southern Illinois

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#153073
Feb 10, 2013
 

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Mikko wrote:
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stop babbling nonsense!
Amen, you can start by writing the word, "bible" instead of babbling. I don't have to make you look like a fool. You don't need help in that regaurd.[Tipping Hat]

“Think&Care”

Since: Oct 07

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#153074
Feb 10, 2013
 
mtimber wrote:
<quoted text>
How do you deduct that the law of non-contradiction is universal empirically?
By seeing if models where it fails are able to predict the results of observations. Generally, our models pre-suppose propositional logic, so

not(P and (not P))

is a theorem (not an axiom, by the way).

Since: Sep 10

Long Beach, CA

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#153075
Feb 10, 2013
 
Dave Nelson wrote:
<quoted text>
I spent a bit of this time of year up the other way in Monterey back in 1976, and spent a lot of that around Point Sur. Watching the whales, seals, and sea otters. A beautiful spot. Big change in temperature around that bend.
I was in Monterey a month ago. Sea otters were doing their backstroke, and the seals and sea lions were all over the place. The aquarium is also fantastic.

Didn't get down to Point Sur, just to Pacific Grove. It's beautiful everywhere in that area.

“In the beginning God Created..”

Since: Feb 12

Southern Illinois

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#153076
Feb 10, 2013
 

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Mikko wrote:
<quoted text>
stop babbling nonsense!
I donít mean to anger you or cause you any harm. I donít see you as a big offender in my view. I just want you to know that respect doesnít cost anything.
GenoGirl

Inverness, UK

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#153077
Feb 10, 2013
 
Catcher1 wrote:
<quoted text>
I was in Monterey a month ago. Sea otters were doing their backstroke, and the seals and sea lions were all over the place. The aquarium is also fantastic.
Didn't get down to Point Sur, just to Pacific Grove. It's beautiful everywhere in that area.
Aww I love seals, and it sounds like an epic place

“Think&Care”

Since: Oct 07

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#153078
Feb 10, 2013
 
mtimber wrote:
<quoted text>
The First Cause must account for:
1. Laws of logic.
Wrong, the laws of logic are not physical events, so causality doesn't apply to them at all.
2. Laws of morality.
Wrong. Morality is defined by humans for human purposes.
3. Laws of nature.
Wrong once again. It is self-contradictory to talk about the cause of physical laws since causality is based on such physical laws.
4. Existance of intelligence.
Wrong. If there was a first cause, it was so far removed from the first intelligence as to make the connection tenuous at best.
5. Purpose and meaning to life.
Wrong, as explained to you many times.

You haven't shown there *is* a first cause: to do that, you have to first show there isn't an infinite regress of causes and *then* show that any two events have a common cause. Neither has been shown and both are unlikely.

Even if you show there is a first cause, you haven't shown that it is an intelligent creator of the universe. Even a 'first cause' can be accidental (say, a scientist in a multi-dimensional universe learns how to create small dimensional universes like ours, but does so by mistake).

Your problem is that the first cause argument is so full of holes, swiss cheese manufacturers would be sued for having so much empty space.

Since: Sep 10

Long Beach, CA

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#153079
Feb 10, 2013
 
GenoGirl wrote:
<quoted text>
Aww I love seals, and it sounds like an epic place
Do you live close to the Gleaneagles Hotel? I have wanted to go there!
Turkey

Oswego, NY

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#153080
Feb 10, 2013
 

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Aura Mytha wrote:
<quoted text>
All topix posters are liars .
There's the truth!
This is especially true of the atheists. It is also true that Dave makes fools of all of the topix atheists regularly. Its quite amusing. Dave makes a mockery of even the most ardent psuedo elite atheists.
GenoGirl

Inverness, UK

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#153081
Feb 10, 2013
 
Catcher1 wrote:
<quoted text>
Do you live close to the Gleaneagles Hotel? I have wanted to go there!
No I said it sounds awesome, and Id love to go and see it sometime

Since: Sep 08

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#153082
Feb 10, 2013
 
GenoGirl wrote:
<quoted text>
Aww I love seals, and it sounds like an epic place
The view is stunning in March, especially in the morning.

Had one of my God looking out for me moments along that highway. Some sheer cliff driving. Was heading north late in the day and curved into the setting sun with a sharp right curve coming up. A large tractor trailer was coming the other way around that tight curve. I was totally blinded.

There used to be a rusted wreck of a car that went 1000 ft off the cliff you could look down and see. Was a sort of tourist attraction.
blacklagoon

Brookline, MA

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#153083
Feb 10, 2013
 
Eagle12 wrote:
Back to Mars.
Undoubtedly, Mars looked very much earth at one time. With running rivers, polar ice caps and lakes. Plenty of Carbon Dioxide in the atmosphere. Even rain, wind and a few storms.
We only see the remains of what once was this very wet planet. With lots of water one would think there would be life. Trees, grass, fish, whales, animals of every sort. Even sea shells and crustaceans along with their fossils.
No trees, no fossils, no remains of fish or whales. Nothing, nothing but soil, and rocks. Completely lifeless and no evidence there ever was life. Lotís of evidence of water both liquid and frozen. But no evidence of life.
What does that tell us? Life is not self creating. If it was so easy then we would have seen an abundance of evidence by now. If we had a wealth of evidence that life existed on Mars. That in itself would say that life could self create. Magically build the complex DNA codes needed for life to start and replicate.
The pendulum swings against self creation on Mars. There among the desolate dunes on Mars is a lack of evidence. That life can mystically and magically appear without purposely being designed and constructed.
I am making every attempt here to be civil. Your contention that if Mars had once possessed life we should know about it. Thats the same as someone walking to the edge of a desolate beach, scooping up some water, kicking over same sand and declaring,,,NOPE NO LIFE EXISTS HERE!!!! Hopefully you can see how stupid that is. We have a few roving probes analyzing rocks and soil, thats it. Imagine an Alien probe landing in the middle of the Sahara desert, what would the find? Two rovers on a planet basically the size of Earth, and you have concluded that there is no evidence of life on Mars? REALLY?? You might very well be right, but lets at least wait until a manned mission has spent considerable time looking for sign of life before we say NO LIFE THERE. It somewhat angers me that the only reason you make such a ridiculous and unfounded statement is because you are desperately trying to support your religious beliefs, and it has nothing to do with real discovery. And if they fine evidence of life then what will you say? Don't answer I already know....."See how God has created life even on planets other than our own"

Since: Sep 08

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#153084
Feb 10, 2013
 
Turkey wrote:
<quoted text> This is especially true of the atheists. It is also true that Dave makes fools of all of the topix atheists regularly. Its quite amusing. Dave makes a mockery of even the most ardent psuedo elite atheists.
Thank you for the compliment, but all I really do is assist them in their efforts. They do try hard.

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