Atheism requires as much faith as religion?

Atheism requires as much faith as religion? bearvspuma : The only problem with this rationalization is that ita s assuming all athiests are so because theya re intelligent in the ways of science and reasoning and all people that believe in a form of god are unintelligent. Full Story
Imhotep

Inverness, FL

#152854 Feb 10, 2013
mtimber wrote:
<quoted text>
Define:
"happiness"
"fairness"
As you claim there is only subjective morality, please explain why you make appeals to absolutely moral standards like:
"happiness"
"fairness"
You see, you have been caught in the cookie jar here.
You are denying absolute moral truth, whilst appealing to it, to make your case.
Revealing that your anti-theist position is in fact illogical and contradictory.
You prove yourself wrong...
All I have to do is point that out to you, in the hope you will start to think logically and turn to God, so He can help you think straight.
He?
Who was his mother and father?
Were there any aunts, uncles and grandparents?

Philosophy has questions that may never be answered.
Religion has answers that may never be questioned.
Religions takes everything that your DNA naturally wants and makes it wrong.

;)

“Think&Care”

Since: Oct 07

Location hidden

#152855 Feb 10, 2013
mtimber wrote:
<quoted text>
Of course you are at war with this truth.
I deny it is a truth.
It is evident in your desire to have it removed from society.
Only in the way I want ignorance and superstition removed from society.
It is evident in your rage filled vitriolic attacks against those that do hold it.
The war is plain to see.
But the standards of truth, which are self evident, reveal you are on the wrong side in this matter...
Your 'self-evident truths' are mostly falsehoods. Perhaps if you pulled yourself out of your superstitious nonsense, you would see the errors you make. it is an end fervently to be desired.

Since: Dec 11

Location hidden

#152856 Feb 10, 2013
BBSting wrote:
<quoted text>
Although they make a lot of noise, atheists have no proof and/or evidence demonstrating that atheism is accurate and correct. They have nothing. Zero. Game over.
Atheism is the default position. Theists have the burden of proof to support their claims.

Since: Jan 13

Location hidden

#152857 Feb 10, 2013
Just Think wrote:
<quoted text>
Yawn. If the truth (at least the version of the truth of which you are speaking) were, in fact, self evident, there would be no atheists.
However, not only is that truth NOT self evident, it does not exist. Your religion itself says as much as it is completely based on faith. Not facts, faith.
There is not now, nor has there ever been any proof of any god's existence.
Not at all.

Christianity expects atheism.

In fact it even prophecies the modern rise of atheism.

So your premises are totally unsound.

Since: Jan 13

Location hidden

#152858 Feb 10, 2013
polymath257 wrote:
<quoted text>
Because I can plan. I can plan because I am intelligent.
Yes, I understand your arbitrary claim:

I purpose, because I purpose.

But for that claim to be valid, you have to be omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent.

You see any absolute truth claim, has to be made under those conditions.

And as it is clear you are none of the above, your claim falls flat rather quickly.

Since: Jan 13

Location hidden

#152859 Feb 10, 2013
Just Think wrote:
<quoted text>
If god's existence is self evident then why do you need faith?
Good question, you are starting to think now.

Define "faith", that definition will help you answer the question.

But you will have to abandon your pre-suppositions, so that you do not presuppose it to mean what you have already decided it means...

Which would be a very subtle form of equivocation.

Since: Jan 13

Location hidden

#152860 Feb 10, 2013
polymath257 wrote:
<quoted text>
Wrong. It is far from being self-evident. In fact, it is most likely false.
<quoted text>
Which is observation of the universe.
<quoted text>
Your claim. No proof.
The First Cause, caused.

That is self evident.

All mankind, using logic and reason, must come to that simple conclusion.

The only way out of that is to deny logic and reason, which is self refuting...

The truth is self evident, and the contrary is absurd, supporting the fact the truth is self evident.

Do you understand the argument?

Since: Jan 13

Location hidden

#152861 Feb 10, 2013
For all atheists that are willing to engage their brains:

Account for absolute TRUTH.

“God of War”

Since: Dec 10

Location hidden

#152862 Feb 10, 2013
mtimber wrote:
<quoted text>
Really.
So you are arguing that society at large has the consensus?
So during the dark ages, you would have been a practicing peasant farmer attending the local church because society dicated morality to you.
And you would have been morally bound to accept the world is flat.
Basically you are arguing that morality is an activity of the herd and wherever the herd goes, you are morally incumbant to follow...
And the only thing that defines your absolute morality is the herd you are born into.
So what makes one "herd" morally superior to another "herd"?
That is not a question you can answer I suspect...
There is no group greater than another , except in numbers.
The larger set would be greater numerically than the smaller set.

Yes there can be a conflict within any set. Or between sets.
In the end ,the largest set is the standard.
blacklagoon

Hyde Park, MA

#152863 Feb 10, 2013
mtimber wrote:
<quoted text>
I am not making an argument.
I am making an absolute knowledge claim.
The self-attesting God has revealed Himself to you.
But your nature, sinful and selfish is at war with Him.
So you suppress that truth.
But you cannot be consistent with that suppression, as your whole existence has been defined by the One who created you.
So you will end up suppressing those things that God has revealed to you as best you can.
Unfortunately for you, as you will be judged on this, that suppression is self evident as you have to deny the obvious in order to maintain your denial of truth.
You do it here, by insisting you have "a purpose", but you cannot ACCOUNT for why you would have a "purpose" when you are an smear on the windscreen of the universe...
Revealing the very point of truth I am pointing out to you and proving the case.
The only option for you is to run around making arbitrary knowledge claims and demand everyone agrees with you, completely avoiding the problem and reinforcing my point.
I will make it again, so you can see it clearly:
HOW DO YOU ACCOUNT FOR PURPOSE IN THE HUMAN EXPERIENCE?
No you are NOT making an argument, nor are you having an intelligent dialog, what you are doing is PREACHING!!

People who make ABSOLUTE KNOWLEDGE CLAIMS are required to support this claims with verifiable EVIDENCE. Why is that word so difficult for you to deal with. EVIDENCE, EVIDENCE, SHOW ME EVIDENCE FOR YOUR CLAIM. Anecdotal accounts or persona; experience are not viewed as evidence.

I have told you that I can very well account for My purpose, and the control that I have over MY destiny.

How do I account for purpose in the human experience? Either you have trouble with comprehension or you're just plain ass stupid. I told you that EACH PERSON DETERMINES HIS PURPOSE!!!

Now, stop PREACHING and try your best to carry on an intelligent conversation. Otherwise we are done!!!

Since: Sep 08

Westcliffe, CO

#152864 Feb 10, 2013
mtimber wrote:
<quoted text>
Which of course the Bible states is the case.
This behaviour is to be expected.
Good job, because you would go mad if you did not know they are not capable of anything else, unless they repent and turn to God.
When the Bible states they cannot do anything other than suppress the truth, then it gets a little less frustrating.
They are singing the song they have no choice to sing.
They cannot escape it, only God can deliver them from it.
But as they are at war with God, it is a difficult situation for them to be recovered from.
God created things to grow, and the fertilizer for them to grow in.

I guess they have some useful purpose. Who am I to second guess the Creator?

Since: Sep 08

Westcliffe, CO

#152865 Feb 10, 2013
Aura Mytha wrote:
<quoted text>
Hogwash.
The largest set is nondenominational.
http://www.un.org/en/documents/udhr/index.sht...
Uh, when was that written? What inspired it?

Jesus 2
Atheists 0

Since: Jan 13

Location hidden

#152866 Feb 10, 2013
Aura Mytha wrote:
<quoted text>
There is no group greater than another , except in numbers.
The larger set would be greater numerically than the smaller set.
Yes there can be a conflict within any set. Or between sets.
In the end ,the largest set is the standard.
So the Nazis were right when they murdered the Jews.

After all, they were superior in numbers...

What about societies that practiced child sacrifice like the Inca's, they were a majority society.

Therefore child sacrifice is moral.

I hope you see the absurdity of the argument you are presenting...

“God of War”

Since: Dec 10

Location hidden

#152867 Feb 10, 2013
mtimber wrote:
<quoted text>
The First Cause, caused.
That is self evident.
All mankind, using logic and reason, must come to that simple conclusion.
The only way out of that is to deny logic and reason, which is self refuting...
The truth is self evident, and the contrary is absurd, supporting the fact the truth is self evident.
Do you understand the argument?
Actually it is what is called an absurd paradox.
If everything requires a cause , then there can be no first cause.
It leads to infinite regress, answering it by poking a god in the equation does not answer it. That's special pleading by exempting a god from cause. You have to accept there was no cause for first cause anyway.

Since there is no cause for god, and no evidence of god.
It's a absurd paradox, and you can just say the first cause was uncaused.

“Think&Care”

Since: Oct 07

Location hidden

#152868 Feb 10, 2013
mtimber wrote:
<quoted text>
Yes, I understand your arbitrary claim:
I purpose, because I purpose.
But for that claim to be valid, you have to be omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent.
Wrong. I simply have to be able to plan. You aren't understanding what I am saying, are you? Purpose is a *local* matter, even an individual matter.*We* get to decide what *our* purpose is because *we* are able to plan. Our purpose is *defined by us*.
You see any absolute truth claim, has to be made under those conditions.
And as it is clear you are none of the above, your claim falls flat rather quickly.
Who said anything about an absolute truth claim? You asked about purpose.

“Think&Care”

Since: Oct 07

Location hidden

#152869 Feb 10, 2013
mtimber wrote:
<quoted text>
The First Cause, caused.
That is self evident.
You have not shown the existence of a first cause. You have not shown there is only one first cause. You haven't shown anything that would suggest a first cause, even if existing and unique, would have any of the common properties assigned to a deity.

And, for that matter, you haven't defined what it *means* to cause.
All mankind, using logic and reason, must come to that simple conclusion.
The only way out of that is to deny logic and reason, which is self refuting...
The truth is self evident, and the contrary is absurd, supporting the fact the truth is self evident.
Do you understand the argument?
I understand your argument, but your assumptions are wrong, so you come to an incorrect conclusion.
blacklagoon

Hyde Park, MA

#152870 Feb 10, 2013
mtimber wrote:
<quoted text>
So if man defines morality, then slavery, which society deemed morally acceptable was ok?
I hope you see the absurdity of the position you hold when you try to give society the credit for setting morality...
You cannot argue that anything is intrinsically wrong or right, it is just a matter of crowd politics.
That then means that morality is merely the expression of the majorities desire.
Which creates a problem, when the majorities desire is harmful to the individual...
Your mistake, you never should have tried to make your point using slavery. Your holy book and you God completely endorse slavery. Slave owners of the South believed, and had no problem saying so, that owning slaves was their "God Given Right." And as devout Christian, as most all slave owners were, they were absolutely right. God see's nothing wrong with one human owning another, so why should I have a problem. Slavery was not universal.

Most societies can agree on what is harmful for its citizens and the moral laws reflect that. Left to their own devises without the interference from religion, a society will define what is harmful tom it;s citizens and pass laws. Look to Islam to see how religion poisons this process. Islamic rule see's nothing at all wrong with senseless murder, and torture. All under then guise of their God ALLAH.

Christians had their day in the sun during the inquisition, another fine example of a moral code set by religion. The Inca's cut out the hearts from thousands of the living to appease their Sun God.

For your information, the GOLDEN RULES works perfectly fine for a society that is looking for a solid moral code. NO demon God needed or wanted.

“God of War”

Since: Dec 10

Location hidden

#152871 Feb 10, 2013
Dave Nelson wrote:
<quoted text>
Uh, when was that written? What inspired it?
Jesus 2
Atheists 0
WW2 inspired it it wasn't Christians alone in it's design.
It is universal Dave , meaning greater than religion, or country.

Without distinction of any kind, such as race, colour, sex, language, religion.

Since: Jan 13

Location hidden

#152872 Feb 10, 2013
blacklagoon wrote:
<quoted text>No you are NOT making an argument, nor are you having an intelligent dialog, what you are doing is PREACHING!!
People who make ABSOLUTE KNOWLEDGE CLAIMS are required to support this claims with verifiable EVIDENCE. Why is that word so difficult for you to deal with. EVIDENCE, EVIDENCE, SHOW ME EVIDENCE FOR YOUR CLAIM. Anecdotal accounts or persona; experience are not viewed as evidence.
I have told you that I can very well account for My purpose, and the control that I have over MY destiny.
How do I account for purpose in the human experience? Either you have trouble with comprehension or you're just plain ass stupid. I told you that EACH PERSON DETERMINES HIS PURPOSE!!!
Now, stop PREACHING and try your best to carry on an intelligent conversation. Otherwise we are done!!!
Wow, your preaching about my preaching contains so many moral imperatives that I would not know which part to say amen to...

I hope you get the point.:-)

Now, to the subject at hand.

I am not making absolute truth claims.

I am pointing you to the Self-existant, eternal God that has created the universe and what He has said about absolute truth.

I am just a messenger, not the writer of the message.

Just to clear that up.

----------

What is to be noted however, is that you have still not accounted for why you have purpose.

It is not a big problem for me, as I know God gave you purpose, so your life makes sense, if you accept that purpose.

You however, just keep claiming you have purpose.

I understand that, but you do not give a reason WHY you should have a purpose as an atheist.

So you point to the knowledge God has given you, deny God and then fail to account for that knowledge, because you cannot.

Which I am pointing out, proves the point.

You deny Gods ownership of your purpose, but then cannot explain why you own that purpose.

You have tried to steal something from God and have been caught like a child with it in your hands.

Now you are being asked:

"Where did you get that from, did you steal it from God."

With which you reply:

"No, it doesn't belong to God, its mine, I made it."

But that creates a problem.

As purpose can only be created by someone who has total control over all things...

Since: Jan 13

Location hidden

#152873 Feb 10, 2013
Aura Mytha wrote:
<quoted text>
Actually it is what is called an absurd paradox.
If everything requires a cause , then there can be no first cause.
It leads to infinite regress, answering it by poking a god in the equation does not answer it. That's special pleading by exempting a god from cause. You have to accept there was no cause for first cause anyway.
Since there is no cause for god, and no evidence of god.
It's a absurd paradox, and you can just say the first cause was uncaused.
False premise and a typical atheists mistake on this point.

The obvious truth is:

Every effect has a cause.

Not everything has a cause...

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