Atheism requires as much faith as religion?

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Atheism requires as much faith as religion? bearvspuma : The only problem with this rationalization is that ita s assuming all athiests are so because theya re intelligent in the ways of science and reasoning and all people that believe in a form of god are unintelligent.

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Since: Jun 07

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#152759
Feb 10, 2013
 
mtimber wrote:
<quoted text>
So if man defines morality, then slavery, which society deemed morally acceptable was ok?
I hope you see the absurdity of the position you hold when you try to give society the credit for setting morality...
You cannot argue that anything is intrinsically wrong or right, it is just a matter of crowd politics.
That then means that morality is merely the expression of the majorities desire.
Which creates a problem, when the majorities desire is harmful to the individual...
There is only one absurdity here. It comes from the person claiming that god exists without a single shred of proof.

Until you've proven the god you are lying aboutm non of your "arguments' hold any weight here.

If you apply your brain a little bit you'll realise that none of your opinions matter at all, because you'll never be able to prove the god that you lie about.

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#152760
Feb 10, 2013
 
mtimber wrote:
<quoted text>
If you say so, it must be true?
How can you argue that any morality is superior if you do not accept that absolute morality exists?
Illogical.
:-)
Morality is relative, it requires no absoluteles. Especially absolutes conjured up by people who suffer from the mental illness of faith.

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#152761
Feb 10, 2013
 
mtimber wrote:
<quoted text>
How can you state that any moral system is a failure, if you do not have a basis for defining morality?
Which you clearly do not...
YOur moral system fails because you choose to invent a god and make that your moral absolute.

The problem is that god isn't real and you're lying about it.

You've had since the beginning of time to put your morality where your mouth is, but time and time again, you guys continue to talk about a deity that simply does not exist.

That's why you're in a cult I suppose, you have problems with facing reality, probably afraid of the impermanence of life I think.

“ecrasez l'infame”

Since: May 08

Atlanta, Georgia

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#152762
Feb 10, 2013
 
mtimber wrote:
<quoted text>
And to take your argument to its illogical conclusion, morality did not exist before humanism arose...
Humanists see humans and human ethics and ideals as an integral part of nature, the result of unguided evolutionary change.

Humanists don't have values which are edicted on society, we see the best of society and give voice to what is. Humanists see that humans are social by nature and find meaning in relationships.

Humanist see ethical values as being derived from human need and interest as tested by experience. We see that working to benefit society maximizes individual happiness and therefore life's fulfillment emerges from individual participation in the service of humane ideals.

“ecrasez l'infame”

Since: May 08

Atlanta, Georgia

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#152763
Feb 10, 2013
 

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mtimber wrote:
<quoted text>
As the truth of God is self evident, your question does not really make much sense...
But you still are missing the point.
How do you account for the idea of purpose and destiny in an atheistic universe.
You cannot.
The explanation is simple, you were created by God, with purpose, but due to the desire to suppress that knowledge of God, including His purpose for you, you have to deny His existance.
Then you are caught in the conundrum of accounting for the purpose you intrinsically know you have, without the originator of that purpose to help you define it.
So what happens then?
Nothing, you just keep claiming you have purpose but cannot account for it.
You cannot explain it, because the explanation is not something you are comfortable with...
You assume "purpose and destiny" without ever showing evidence for these concepts as anything more than your wishful thinking.

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#152764
Feb 10, 2013
 

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Givemeliberty wrote:
Obsess much? Ok gramps I noticed you have made several errors in your schizophrenic ramblings. First you say you were an atheist for 50 years until a mean topix atheist bashed Jesus and Paul. This upset you for some reason and lead you to understand god was real and had been hiding in your old work as an electrician. And you honestly expect us to believe this?
If this were true that a topix poster and fellow atheist made you convert to being a theist because he bashed Jesus and Paul then you sir are a very weak minded sheep. Even I don't believe you are that stupid Dave, you're just not. You are a liar though and a Christian hiding his faith.
Had you been a baker no doubt god would be yeast. Baal was an ancient middle eastern god and was often the god of the city. Several cities had Baal gods almost like a guard dog-gods so to speak. Your machine nonsense and ancients doing similar strings and magnets experiments for god is sadly a product of your imagination.
And your correct interpretation of the bible to smooth things out is typical of Christians, which you are as shown by you getting furious at Jesus and Paul being mocked.
<quoted text>
You have no credibility as a moral commentator, observer of nature, rational adult, or intellectual. But that doesn't stop you.

“Think&Care”

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#152765
Feb 10, 2013
 
mtimber wrote:
<quoted text>
And to take your argument to its illogical conclusion, morality did not exist before humanism arose...
More correctly, morality didn't exist before *humans* arose. Humanism is simply the expression of the idea that morality is based in *human* wants and concerns. Even those in societies with different moral structures will rebel against certain types of abuse by tyrants, for example.

“Think&Care”

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#152766
Feb 10, 2013
 
mtimber wrote:
<quoted text>
So humanism is the basis of morality.
So when slavery was morally acceptable, by society, it was ok?
According to your argument, it would be.
Isn't it interesting that even those who upheld slavery did not want to be slaves themselves? Even those who saw it as part of the 'natural order' of things dictated by God, didn't see it as something they wanted their children to experience directly?

No, this only shows the society to be hypocritical. Fairness is crucial to humanism: the same rules apply to everyone. Funny, even that principle goes back a long way.

“Think&Care”

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#152767
Feb 10, 2013
 
mtimber wrote:
<quoted text>
How can you state that any moral system is a failure, if you do not have a basis for defining morality?
Which you clearly do not...
Of course we do: fairness and human happiness. Both come from the fact that we are a social species. No deity required.

“Think&Care”

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#152768
Feb 10, 2013
 
mtimber wrote:
<quoted text>
Laws of logic.
Are they material or immaterial?
They are ideas in our minds. As such, they are processes in the brain.

“Think&Care”

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#152769
Feb 10, 2013
 
mtimber wrote:
<quoted text>
What about the man that states a gust of wind blew on a handful of dirt and man magically appeared.
How would you define him?
Any invocation of magic as an explanation in the real world shows a disconnect to reality.

More specifically, the chemical properties of 'dirt' and 'wind' are not such that humans can be produced from them.
Imhotep

United States

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#152770
Feb 10, 2013
 
mtimber wrote:
<quoted text>
What about the man that states a gust of wind blew on a handful of dirt and man magically appeared.
How would you define him?
Delusional, Uneducated, or a another Magician...
It's been done before, and with beautiful women!
See most any magic show in Vegas except 'The Amazing Jonathan'

;)

http://www.lasvegas-nv.com/the-amazing-johnat...

“Think&Care”

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#152771
Feb 10, 2013
 
mtimber wrote:
<quoted text>
As the truth of God is self evident, your question does not really make much sense...
Except, of course, that many people don't see it as self-evident. That shows it isn't.
But you still are missing the point.
How do you account for the idea of purpose and destiny in an atheistic universe.
You cannot.
We choose our own purpose in life. Wow that was easy. You see, purpose is something each and every one of us gets to decide for ourselves It's a tremendous freedom, but one that many shy away from. Some people just don't like to take responsibility for their own decisions, so they create the idea of deities to make them feel better about themselves.

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#152772
Feb 10, 2013
 

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Givemeliberty wrote:
But your god in the old and New Testament advocates for slavery, are you saying he was immoral for that?
I got a hundred bucks that says he dodges and avoids questions :)
<quoted text>
First you have to define morality.

If you do not qualify your terms, how can anyone respond appropriately to them?

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#152773
Feb 10, 2013
 
polymath257 wrote:
<quoted text>
Any invocation of magic as an explanation in the real world shows a disconnect to reality.
More specifically, the chemical properties of 'dirt' and 'wind' are not such that humans can be produced from them.
Like virtual particles?

Singing sand.

“ The Lord of delirious minds.”

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#152774
Feb 10, 2013
 
mtimber wrote:
<quoted text>
As the truth of God is self evident, your question does not really make much sense...
But you still are missing the point.
How do you account for the idea of purpose and destiny in an atheistic universe.
You cannot.
The explanation is simple, you were created by God, with purpose, but due to the desire to suppress that knowledge of God, including His purpose for you, you have to deny His existance.
Then you are caught in the conundrum of accounting for the purpose you intrinsically know you have, without the originator of that purpose to help you define it.
So what happens then?
Nothing, you just keep claiming you have purpose but cannot account for it.
You cannot explain it, because the explanation is not something you are comfortable with...


Load of malarkey , not sure where the phrase came from.
But I know it when I see it.

We define our own purposes in life, some never find one.
Some do find one, but it doesn't have to be inspired by religion
or god. Our purpose first, is to survive. That is every animals purpose. People like you suppose there was some creator designed purpose to life, but none exists. Those who are believing this, are having their strings pulled by those who have hijacked their potential and using them for an agenda that is of someone Else's fabrication. Plain and simple, but some exist to serve and are easily led to the agendas of other men. But don't pretend the purpose is from god, because that's just a lie used as a motivator.

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#152775
Feb 10, 2013
 

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blacklagoon wrote:
<quoted text>There IS NO evidence for the existence of your God. There are however, stories and anecdotal testimony which hardly count as "empirical evidence." As someone once said "The evidence for God is the same as for werewolves."
Now what usually happens after someone makes such claim, is support for this claim follows. Fossil records, some other kind of physical evidence, anything can be traced back and connected to your God thing. We have evidence for Alexander the Great, DNA from his father I think. You don't even have reliable or historical evidence for Jesus. You once again have some anecdotal testimony, and lots of stories passed down over the centuries. The fact is, there are NO contemporary accounts of Jesus outside of the bible. Everything that was written about Jesus was written decades after his supposed death.
There is no evidence within me or around me. I'm an animal the same as you. I was born and will cease to live at some point. The marvels of my body are the work of millions of years of evolution, as is the world around me. There is no magic involved, pure biology and science is the answer. I'm sure you believe there is some mystical magical being responsible, but all that exists, like your God, only in YOUR mind.
There are NO laws that govern "Mind" only matter. And those laws may well have existed always.
You do what all Theists and fundies do, you state your beliefs as factual, and do so without a shred of evidence. I use to find this annoying, now I find it extremely comical. So very childlike. "Oh look, a rainbow, its so beautiful it must be God." "Look at how complex our bodies are, I can't for one moment understand this complexity, only God could have created such perfection." You can't understand it so........GODDIDIT. You see something awe inspiring so......GOGDIDIT. So very childish. Oh, BTW, the human body is very far from perfect.
I am sorry, but your argument that there is no evidence for Jesus is just downright absurd and not one I am even tempted to treat seriously.
blacklagoon

Brookline, MA

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#152776
Feb 10, 2013
 
mtimber wrote:
<quoted text>
As the truth of God is self evident, your question does not really make much sense...
But you still are missing the point.
How do you account for the idea of purpose and destiny in an atheistic universe.
You cannot.
The explanation is simple, you were created by God, with purpose, but due to the desire to suppress that knowledge of God, including His purpose for you, you have to deny His existance.
Then you are caught in the conundrum of accounting for the purpose you intrinsically know you have, without the originator of that purpose to help you define it.
So what happens then?
Nothing, you just keep claiming you have purpose but cannot account for it.
You cannot explain it, because the explanation is not something you are comfortable with...
The "truth" of God is self-evident to you, and to those who believe as you do, it is NOT at all self-evident to many others including myself. Your problem is that you start with a faulty premiss and then build everything around this premiss. It always comes down to whether or not your beliefs are TRUE. True in the demonstrable way. You have a belief, a belief that can not be demonstrated to be real. I'm sure its very real to you, but you can never convince anyone else that its true without..........OK....the scariest word for all Theists..........Evidence.

I think you need to realize what truth means, When you say "The TRUTH of God" you're i big trouble. It's a wonderful sounding phrase but total bullshit. Here......TRUTH, "That which is true or in accordance with FACT or REALITY. And FACT..."A piece of information used as EVIDENCE....or FACT.."that which is INDISPUTABLY the case. So as you can see, your flowery religious phrase is without merit.

Do you know how childish you sound when you state your beliefs as factual? "You were created by God for a purpose." You can't even prove this mythical being exists let alone has given us a purpose. When you do this, you are making a positive claim, "You were created by God for a purpose." The burden of proof now falls squarely on your shoulders, prove God exists, and then we ca move on to the purpose bullshit. So what was Hitlers purpose, how about John Wayne Gacey, or any number of psychopathic killers? Yeah, Yeah, they had a purpose but ignored Gods recommendations. LOL

Of course I can account for purpose and destiny. Why do you think this is such a huge mystery? I can only feel intense pity for you, unable to navigate through life without an imaginary outside agent, you poor bastard. I decide my pathway through life, I decide my purpose, I control, up to a point, my destiny, not some outside agent. Why is it so very difficult for you to accept that anyone can decide their purpose in life. I personally have devoted my life to the creative arts and passing on what I have learned to others. THIS IS MY PURPOSE IN LIFE. Others have chosen to improve the lives of others by devoting their live to medicine or the sciences.

I can't suppress this knowledge of God when there is NONE. Beyond you holy book, there is NO knowledge of God that is demonstrable within reality.

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#152777
Feb 10, 2013
 

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blacklagoon wrote:
There are NO laws that govern "Mind" only matter. And those laws may well have existed always.
Do you really want to make this argument.

If so, please support your reasoning.

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#152778
Feb 10, 2013
 
Just Think wrote:
<quoted text>
I didn't claim that I had those things "as an atheist" - I have them as a human being.
Again, we're not all as weak as you that we have do define ourselves by our views on religion. You really should expand your horizons.
I know you have them.

You know you have them.

You are missing the point.

As an atheist you cannot account for it.

Because you have to deny the self evident truth that you were intelligently created with a spiritual purpose, whilst claiming the right to that purpose.

As a matter of interest, what is your purpose?

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