Atheism requires as much faith as rel...

Atheism requires as much faith as religion?

There are 247812 comments on the Webbunny tumblelog story from Jul 18, 2009, titled Atheism requires as much faith as religion?. In it, Webbunny tumblelog reports that:

Atheism requires as much faith as religion? bearvspuma : The only problem with this rationalization is that ita s assuming all athiests are so because theya re intelligent in the ways of science and reasoning and all people that believe in a form of god are unintelligent.

Join the discussion below, or Read more at Webbunny tumblelog.

blacklagoon

Hyde Park, MA

#152870 Feb 10, 2013
mtimber wrote:
<quoted text>
So if man defines morality, then slavery, which society deemed morally acceptable was ok?
I hope you see the absurdity of the position you hold when you try to give society the credit for setting morality...
You cannot argue that anything is intrinsically wrong or right, it is just a matter of crowd politics.
That then means that morality is merely the expression of the majorities desire.
Which creates a problem, when the majorities desire is harmful to the individual...
Your mistake, you never should have tried to make your point using slavery. Your holy book and you God completely endorse slavery. Slave owners of the South believed, and had no problem saying so, that owning slaves was their "God Given Right." And as devout Christian, as most all slave owners were, they were absolutely right. God see's nothing wrong with one human owning another, so why should I have a problem. Slavery was not universal.

Most societies can agree on what is harmful for its citizens and the moral laws reflect that. Left to their own devises without the interference from religion, a society will define what is harmful tom it;s citizens and pass laws. Look to Islam to see how religion poisons this process. Islamic rule see's nothing at all wrong with senseless murder, and torture. All under then guise of their God ALLAH.

Christians had their day in the sun during the inquisition, another fine example of a moral code set by religion. The Inca's cut out the hearts from thousands of the living to appease their Sun God.

For your information, the GOLDEN RULES works perfectly fine for a society that is looking for a solid moral code. NO demon God needed or wanted.

“Input”

Since: Dec 10

Input

#152871 Feb 10, 2013
Dave Nelson wrote:
<quoted text>
Uh, when was that written? What inspired it?
Jesus 2
Atheists 0
WW2 inspired it it wasn't Christians alone in it's design.
It is universal Dave , meaning greater than religion, or country.

Without distinction of any kind, such as race, colour, sex, language, religion.

Since: Jan 13

Location hidden

#152872 Feb 10, 2013
blacklagoon wrote:
<quoted text>No you are NOT making an argument, nor are you having an intelligent dialog, what you are doing is PREACHING!!
People who make ABSOLUTE KNOWLEDGE CLAIMS are required to support this claims with verifiable EVIDENCE. Why is that word so difficult for you to deal with. EVIDENCE, EVIDENCE, SHOW ME EVIDENCE FOR YOUR CLAIM. Anecdotal accounts or persona; experience are not viewed as evidence.
I have told you that I can very well account for My purpose, and the control that I have over MY destiny.
How do I account for purpose in the human experience? Either you have trouble with comprehension or you're just plain ass stupid. I told you that EACH PERSON DETERMINES HIS PURPOSE!!!
Now, stop PREACHING and try your best to carry on an intelligent conversation. Otherwise we are done!!!
Wow, your preaching about my preaching contains so many moral imperatives that I would not know which part to say amen to...

I hope you get the point.:-)

Now, to the subject at hand.

I am not making absolute truth claims.

I am pointing you to the Self-existant, eternal God that has created the universe and what He has said about absolute truth.

I am just a messenger, not the writer of the message.

Just to clear that up.

----------

What is to be noted however, is that you have still not accounted for why you have purpose.

It is not a big problem for me, as I know God gave you purpose, so your life makes sense, if you accept that purpose.

You however, just keep claiming you have purpose.

I understand that, but you do not give a reason WHY you should have a purpose as an atheist.

So you point to the knowledge God has given you, deny God and then fail to account for that knowledge, because you cannot.

Which I am pointing out, proves the point.

You deny Gods ownership of your purpose, but then cannot explain why you own that purpose.

You have tried to steal something from God and have been caught like a child with it in your hands.

Now you are being asked:

"Where did you get that from, did you steal it from God."

With which you reply:

"No, it doesn't belong to God, its mine, I made it."

But that creates a problem.

As purpose can only be created by someone who has total control over all things...

Since: Jan 13

Location hidden

#152873 Feb 10, 2013
Aura Mytha wrote:
<quoted text>
Actually it is what is called an absurd paradox.
If everything requires a cause , then there can be no first cause.
It leads to infinite regress, answering it by poking a god in the equation does not answer it. That's special pleading by exempting a god from cause. You have to accept there was no cause for first cause anyway.
Since there is no cause for god, and no evidence of god.
It's a absurd paradox, and you can just say the first cause was uncaused.
False premise and a typical atheists mistake on this point.

The obvious truth is:

Every effect has a cause.

Not everything has a cause...

Since: Jan 13

Location hidden

#152874 Feb 10, 2013
polymath257 wrote:
<quoted text>
Wrong. I simply have to be able to plan. You aren't understanding what I am saying, are you? Purpose is a *local* matter, even an individual matter.*We* get to decide what *our* purpose is because *we* are able to plan. Our purpose is *defined by us*.
<quoted text>
Who said anything about an absolute truth claim? You asked about purpose.
Your purpose in "life".

As an atheist, you do not have a "purpose", your life is meaningless in the cold empty aggressive atheistic universe you want to propose.

Your life has no meaning.

But you intrinsically know that that his not true.

Because God has given you a sense of purpose and hope in life.

But to account for that purpose you have to stop suppressing the truth.

You are not willing to do that.

So you cannot account for the purpose you know you have.

That is a bankrupt and quite pitiful worldview to cling on to.

Since: Jan 13

Location hidden

#152875 Feb 10, 2013
polymath257 wrote:
<quoted text>
You have not shown the existence of a first cause. You have not shown there is only one first cause. You haven't shown anything that would suggest a first cause, even if existing and unique, would have any of the common properties assigned to a deity.
And, for that matter, you haven't defined what it *means* to cause.
<quoted text>
I understand your argument, but your assumptions are wrong, so you come to an incorrect conclusion.
Logic and causality plainly reveal the need for a First Cause.

All effects need a cause.

That is the foundation of all knowledge.

You can of course deny that if you want, but it doesn't stop it being true and it further illustrates the absurd lengths you will go to suppress even the most basic self evident truths that you can observe...

“Input”

Since: Dec 10

Input

#152876 Feb 10, 2013
mtimber wrote:
<quoted text>
False premise and a typical atheists mistake on this point.
The obvious truth is:
Every effect has a cause.
Not everything has a cause...

Oh it's not a religious nonreligious determination, it is a logical determination. That's where your logic fails.
If you accepted what you wrote above, then no creator for first cause is required.
blacklagoon

Hyde Park, MA

#152877 Feb 10, 2013
mtimber wrote:
<quoted text>
Your claims are arbitrary, appeal to anti-theist propaganda and are false.
There are plenty of studies out there, by Christians and non-Christians that assert the existence of Jesus.
Also, your argument that the Bible is invalid has also been shown extensively to be unsound.
Denying the obvious, arbitrarily, does not make you right.
But because you are suppressing the truth, on every level you can, with a religious zeal that a suicide bomber would be impressed with, you will believe any piece of nonsense that supports your suppression of the simple fact of Jesus' existance.
Of course you are terribly wrong, my claims are NOT arbitrary, and are completely true. If you say there are plenty of studies out there, feel free to post them. I'll repeat what I said before, and this is ABSOLUTE FACT....There are NO contemporary accounts of Jesus outside of the bible. Stories passed down through the centuries and anecdotal accounts do NOT count as evidence. There is actually more evidence for the Mormon faith than for your beliefs. There is much supportive evidence for Joe Smith, the Mormon equivalent to Jesus, than you have for Jesus.

The bible becomes completely invalid because of the immorality and unwarranted cruelty it contains. The list of evil is long.

Slavery...Genocide....the murder of babies and the destruction of unborn fetuses by your God.....rape...laws that require a young rape victim to marry her rapist....blood sacrifice....turning father against son.....the threat of eternal torture...... Nothing should be so obvious that this book was written by frightened old men that the horrific treatment of women. Talking snakes, a global flood, grown the f--k up will ya.

Since: Jan 13

Location hidden

#152878 Feb 10, 2013
blacklagoon wrote:
<quoted text>Your mistake, you never should have tried to make your point using slavery. Your holy book and you God completely endorse slavery. Slave owners of the South believed, and had no problem saying so, that owning slaves was their "God Given Right." And as devout Christian, as most all slave owners were, they were absolutely right. God see's nothing wrong with one human owning another, so why should I have a problem. Slavery was not universal.
Most societies can agree on what is harmful for its citizens and the moral laws reflect that. Left to their own devises without the interference from religion, a society will define what is harmful tom it;s citizens and pass laws. Look to Islam to see how religion poisons this process. Islamic rule see's nothing at all wrong with senseless murder, and torture. All under then guise of their God ALLAH.
Christians had their day in the sun during the inquisition, another fine example of a moral code set by religion. The Inca's cut out the hearts from thousands of the living to appease their Sun God.
For your information, the GOLDEN RULES works perfectly fine for a society that is looking for a solid moral code. NO demon God needed or wanted.
You are still not dealing with the point.

Please take the time to read it and think about it, as it is clear you are not doing so at the moment.

If morality is what the "herd" decides, then nothing is absolutely wrong or absolutely right.

And you would have followed the herd all through history.

So you would have supported the inquisition.

You would have supported slavery.

You would have supported every crime that every society ever made, because you are morally bound to do so.

Your morality can never rise any higher or challenge the herd.

Therefore, you can never argue that a different herd acted immorally...

You would have been morally bound to accept the earth was flat during the dark ages.

And would have probably been standing outside Gallileos house with a pitchfork and torch demanding his execution...

Time to start thinking and leave the herd, the herd never gets it right...

And the current herd religion is secular atheism...

Since: Sep 08

Westcliffe, CO

#152879 Feb 10, 2013
Aura Mytha wrote:
<quoted text>
WW2 inspired it it wasn't Christians alone in it's design.
It is universal Dave , meaning greater than religion, or country.
Without distinction of any kind, such as race, colour, sex, language, religion.
WWII happened a long time after the insertion of the moral codes injected into every corner of the world by Western imperialism and missionaries. Which, it so happens are derived from Christianity.

You are going to emit a blast of flatulence about that imperialism and spread of religion, but be advised that there were several conquistadors punished for abuse of the conquered because of the Church's influence, and the murdering of each other by the conquered tended to come to an end, as did human and animal sacrifice. You had greed and economics tempered by religious values that started a larger choir to sing from the same sheet of music.

Since: Jan 13

Location hidden

#152880 Feb 10, 2013
Aura Mytha wrote:
<quoted text>
Oh it's not a religious nonreligious determination, it is a logical determination. That's where your logic fails.
If you accepted what you wrote above, then no creator for first cause is required.
You need to go back and restate your premise.

Insisting on an unsound premise being accepted, does not make your argument sound...

The basic observation of causality:

Every effect has a cause.

The strawman you have setup, is not one I would be willing to argue for and not something you can support either.
Thinking

Yeovil, UK

#152881 Feb 10, 2013
Bollocks.
mtimber wrote:
<quoted text>
You are still not dealing with the point.
Please take the time to read it and think about it, as it is clear you are not doing so at the moment.
If morality is what the "herd" decides, then nothing is absolutely wrong or absolutely right.
And you would have followed the herd all through history.
So you would have supported the inquisition.
You would have supported slavery.
You would have supported every crime that every society ever made, because you are morally bound to do so.
Your morality can never rise any higher or challenge the herd.
Therefore, you can never argue that a different herd acted immorally...
You would have been morally bound to accept the earth was flat during the dark ages.
And would have probably been standing outside Gallileos house with a pitchfork and torch demanding his execution...
Time to start thinking and leave the herd, the herd never gets it right...
And the current herd religion is secular atheism...

Since: Jan 13

Location hidden

#152882 Feb 10, 2013
So all the atheists here that were born in a muslim country would be morally bound to be muslims...

...If they adhered to herd morality as they claim they do...

Since: Sep 08

Westcliffe, CO

#152883 Feb 10, 2013
blacklagoon wrote:
<quoted text>Of course you are terribly wrong, my claims are NOT arbitrary, and are completely true. If you say there are plenty of studies out there, feel free to post them. I'll repeat what I said before, and this is ABSOLUTE FACT....There are NO contemporary accounts of Jesus outside of the bible. Stories passed down through the centuries and anecdotal accounts do NOT count as evidence. There is actually more evidence for the Mormon faith than for your beliefs. There is much supportive evidence for Joe Smith, the Mormon equivalent to Jesus, than you have for Jesus.
The bible becomes completely invalid because of the immorality and unwarranted cruelty it contains. The list of evil is long.
Slavery...Genocide....the murder of babies and the destruction of unborn fetuses by your God.....rape...laws that require a young rape victim to marry her rapist....blood sacrifice....turning father against son.....the threat of eternal torture...... Nothing should be so obvious that this book was written by frightened old men that the horrific treatment of women. Talking snakes, a global flood, grown the f--k up will ya.
Without the Bible and the morality derived from it, you wouldn't be able to make those judgments.

“Input”

Since: Dec 10

Input

#152884 Feb 10, 2013
mtimber wrote:
<quoted text>
You are still not dealing with the point.
Please take the time to read it and think about it, as it is clear you are not doing so at the moment.
If morality is what the "herd" decides, then nothing is absolutely wrong or absolutely right.
And you would have followed the herd all through history.
So you would have supported the inquisition.
You would have supported slavery.
You would have supported every crime that every society ever made, because you are morally bound to do so.
Your morality can never rise any higher or challenge the herd.
Therefore, you can never argue that a different herd acted immorally...
You would have been morally bound to accept the earth was flat during the dark ages.
And would have probably been standing outside Gallileos house with a pitchfork and torch demanding his execution...
Time to start thinking and leave the herd, the herd never gets it right...
And the current herd religion is secular atheism...
God creates idiots, that you do prove.

Since: Sep 08

Westcliffe, CO

#152885 Feb 10, 2013
Dave Nelson wrote:
<quoted text>
WWII happened a long time after the insertion of the moral codes injected into every corner of the world by Western imperialism and missionaries. Which, it so happens are derived from Christianity.
You are going to emit a blast of flatulence about that imperialism and spread of religion, but be advised that there were several conquistadors punished for abuse of the conquered because of the Church's influence, and the murdering of each other by the conquered tended to come to an end, as did human and animal sacrifice. You had greed and economics tempered by religious values that started a larger choir to sing from the same sheet of music.
Oh.

Jesus 3
Atheist 0

“cdesign proponentsists”

Since: Jul 09

Pittsburgh, PA

#152886 Feb 10, 2013
polymath257 wrote:
<quoted text>
You have not shown the existence of a first cause. You have not shown there is only one first cause. You haven't shown anything that would suggest a first cause, even if existing and unique, would have any of the common properties assigned to a deity.
And, for that matter, you haven't defined what it *means* to cause.
<quoted text>
I understand your argument, but your assumptions are wrong, so you come to an incorrect conclusion.
You notice that mtimber plays the same game as so many other theists. mtimber plays the god of the gaps game. He cannot argue that which is known in science and history, he must argue that which is not yet known.

Ask mtimber how to cure leprosy and if he does not claim Leviticus 14:49-53 to be the answer, then you know that he does not believe in his god anymore than an Atheist.

Science, on the other hand, took a different and effective approach and there are very few cases of leprosy.

When you ask people like mtimber how to cure blindness, he first answer should be, have jesus pick up some dirt and spit into it until it is a paste, then cake it over the blind persons eyes. Then tell that person to go to the river, wash his eyes and abracadabra, the man can see!

Ask mtimber what is Pi? If he answers 3, then he his a true believer! If he goes beyond 3, he is helping fill in the gaps that we no longer need a god for.

If you get he to talk about anything that has been proven, all he has to do is, deny it. You cannot force him or convince him to admit anything. It would ruin his game.

“Input”

Since: Dec 10

Input

#152887 Feb 10, 2013
Dave Nelson wrote:
<quoted text>
WWII happened a long time after the insertion of the moral codes injected into every corner of the world by Western imperialism and missionaries. Which, it so happens are derived from Christianity.
You are going to emit a blast of flatulence about that imperialism and spread of religion, but be advised that there were several conquistadors punished for abuse of the conquered because of the Church's influence, and the murdering of each other by the conquered tended to come to an end, as did human and animal sacrifice. You had greed and economics tempered by religious values that started a larger choir to sing from the same sheet of music.
Nope Dave religion is only responsible in the way that religion is composed of people. People were responsible, but people of different religions. What really mattered is that the largest body of people comprised of all religions and nonreligious affiliation agreed on the terms. It is not derived from Christianity, it is derived from societies of people who interact with each other.
Religion is only a part of a larger agenda when it came to this.

You fundies can't get past the idea that morality is not dictated by god, but is in fact defined by a group of people by consensus.

Since: Jan 13

Location hidden

#152888 Feb 10, 2013
Atheism argues that the herd morality is the absolute morality of the current society.

In the dark ages, it was considered by the herd (society), that atheism was heretical and punishable by death.

Therefore, atheism has to condone the persecution of atheism by its own moral standard.

The herd decided atheism was immoral, therefore atheism was immoral...

Absurdity unmatched...

“cdesign proponentsists”

Since: Jul 09

Pittsburgh, PA

#152889 Feb 10, 2013
Dave Nelson wrote:
<quoted text>
Oh.
Jesus 3
Atheist 0
Tell jesus to come and claim his prize!

Oh, wait! He died for your sins. How sad.

Maybe his dad will come down and claim his prize for him!

Yeah, probably not. No one has seen him since he sat down with Abraham. Then for some strange reason, god couldn't be seen by men.

You tell your god that I will divert my eyes when he shows up! I'll keep my eyes closed the entire time he is here picking up his son's prize.

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