Atheism requires as much faith as religion?

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Atheism requires as much faith as religion? bearvspuma : The only problem with this rationalization is that ita s assuming all athiests are so because theya re intelligent in the ways of science and reasoning and all people that believe in a form of god are unintelligent.
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“Fear is the Mind-Killer”

Since: Jun 08

Albuquerque, NM

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#152049
Feb 6, 2013
 
Benjamin Frankly wrote:
<quoted text>
I haven't claimed that without religion there would be no wars, the only thing I have claimed so far is that there are no moral actions (that we can agree on) that are unique to ether the religious or non-religious, but there are evil actions unique to the religious. Thatís it ether you misunderstand my point which makes what you attack a straw man or you are avoiding my point with red herrings and straw men, I donít know you well enough to conclude the latter so Iíll run with the former.
I hope this post clarifies my point and makes your relevant.
Well I'm a little late coming to this discussion, but why don't you illuminate us all once again.

This was of particular concern: "the only thing I have claimed so far is that there are no moral actions (that we can agree on) that are unique to ether the religious or non-religious, but there are evil actions unique to the religious."

???

Firstly, moral actions? Are we going from the moral relative point of view, or the moral absolute point of view such as Sam Harris promotes?

And how exactly are the "religious" unique in their moral actions, after you just stated that no moral actions are unique to either the religious or non-religious? But you did use "evil" actions in place of moral, which is telling.
Thinking

Charlton Mackrell, UK

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#152050
Feb 6, 2013
 
I don't believe your figures, so let's just say:
Fossils: x% vs. proof of god: 0%
Dave Nelson wrote:
" Limitations
Further information: Biostratigraphy
Organisms are only rarely preserved as fossils in the best of circumstances, and only a fraction of such fossils have been discovered. This is illustrated by the fact that the number of species known through the fossil record is less than 5% of the number of known living species, suggesting that the number of species known through fossils must be far less than 1% of all the species that have ever lived.[17] Because of the specialized and rare circumstances required for a biological structure to fossilize, only a small percentage of life-forms can be expected to be represented in discoveries, and each discovery represents only a snapshot of the process of evolution. The transition itself can only be illustrated and corroborated by transitional fossils, which will never demonstrate an exact half-way point.[18]
The fossil record is heavily slanted toward organisms with hard parts, leaving most groups of soft-bodied organisms with little to no role.[17] It is replete with the vertebrates, the echinoderms, the brachiopods and some groups of arthropods.[19]"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fossil
Less than 1%.
Imhotep

United States

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#152051
Feb 6, 2013
 
Yankee Yahoo wrote:
<quoted text>
Well I'm a little late coming to this discussion, but why don't you illuminate us all once again.
This was of particular concern: "the only thing I have claimed so far is that there are no moral actions (that we can agree on) that are unique to ether the religious or non-religious, but there are evil actions unique to the religious."
???
Firstly, moral actions? Are we going from the moral relative point of view, or the moral absolute point of view such as Sam Harris promotes?
And how exactly are the "religious" unique in their moral actions, after you just stated that no moral actions are unique to either the religious or non-religious? But you did use "evil" actions in place of moral, which is telling.
There is no morality in the Bible.

PS: The Jains are vastly superior.

Jainism is based on three general principles called the three Ratnas (jewels). They are:
Right faith.
Right knowledge.
Right action.

They are expected to follow five principles of living:

Ahimsa: "non violence in all parts of a person -- mental, verbal and physical." 3 Committing an act of violence against a human, animal, or even a vegetable generates negative karma which in turn adversely affects one's next life.

Satya: speaking truth; avoiding falsehood

Asteya: to not steal from others

Brahma-charya:(soul conduct); remaining sexually monogamous to one's spouse only

Aparigraha: detach from people, places and material things. Avoiding the collection of excessive material possessions, abstaining from over-indulgence, restricting one's needs, etc.

Since: Sep 08

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#152052
Feb 6, 2013
 
scaritual wrote:
<quoted text>
We may have to start referring to you as *Dave "the Jesus!" Nelson* after that number of the beast comment.
Hahaa, you even capitalized it as if it's a real thing and such.
If you start randomly capitalizing words for no apparent reason and using lots of repeated exclamation!!! and question??? marks...
I'm really gonna start worrying about you, Dave "______" Nelson.
MAGNETS AND STRINGS FOREVER AND AS FAR AS THE EYE CAN SEE!
Are you mad because I didn't throw you a kiss?

“Fear is the Mind-Killer”

Since: Jun 08

Albuquerque, NM

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#152053
Feb 6, 2013
 
Imhotep wrote:
<quoted text>
There is no morality in the Bible.
PS: The Jains are vastly superior.
Jainism is based on three general principles called the three Ratnas (jewels). They are:
Right faith.
Right knowledge.
Right action.
They are expected to follow five principles of living:
Ahimsa: "non violence in all parts of a person -- mental, verbal and physical." 3 Committing an act of violence against a human, animal, or even a vegetable generates negative karma which in turn adversely affects one's next life.
Satya: speaking truth; avoiding falsehood
Asteya: to not steal from others
Brahma-charya:(soul conduct); remaining sexually monogamous to one's spouse only
Aparigraha: detach from people, places and material things. Avoiding the collection of excessive material possessions, abstaining from over-indulgence, restricting one's needs, etc.
Don't steal, don't kill, don't commit adultery ....

Um, is that not morality?

Jainism?

Well, the command from Jesus was to love God and your neighbor with all of your heart. Even if you excluded God, loving thy neighbor would still equal the following:

Right faith.
Right knowledge.
Right action.

No, my friend, you are quite mistaken.

Christian morals are not unique to Christianity, as you demonstrate with Jainism. No civilization on earth has ever arisen without exactly the kind of morals both Jainism, and Christianity, indeed promote.

Why? Because morals evolved with out species to make us the refined organisms that we are. Moral behavior goes hand in hand with human natural selection. We are at our best when we are moral with one another.

C.S. Lewis already pointed this out, in his attempt to clarify Christianity to the non-Christian. I think you are in dire need of his work, Mere Christianity, as you clearly do not understand this religion.

What is unique about Christianity, is that it remain the only religion where God Himself came doen to live amongst humans, where God Himself reached down to mankind to help him evolve even further to a higher state.

No other religion comes even close. So I reject your argument (clear Jainism is not superior) and counter with Christianity being the most superior religion on earth, AND, will include scientific data to prove it. The whole of Western Civilization amazing scientific achievements for the last 1600 years, tangible evidence of Christianity (with quite a bit of help from the Jews, I might add.)

Now, what civilizations has Jainism spawned? And if one exists (Asia somewhere?), how has that civilization proven superior to Western Europe?

“Life may be sweeter for this”

Since: Nov 08

Fennario

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#152054
Feb 6, 2013
 

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Dave Nelson wrote:
My fingers are long past being able to play a guitar.
But not air guitar. You'd be a chick magnet:
https://www.youtube.com/watch...
Imhotep

United States

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#152055
Feb 6, 2013
 
Yankee Yahoo wrote:
<quoted text>
Don't steal, don't kill, don't commit adultery ....
Um, is that not morality?
Jainism?
Well, the command from Jesus was to love God and your neighbor with all of your heart. Even if you excluded (edited), how has that civilization proven superior to Western Europe?
Failure to read thy Bible in not a valid excuse.

The Bible God also incorporated his brand of morality into the laws he gave his chosen people.
In the following,

God outlines his moral law regarding the buying of slaves:

Lev 25:44-46
And as for thy bondman(slaves) and thy handmaid(slaves) whom thou shalt have -- of the nations that are round about you, of them shall ye buy bondmen(slaves) and handmaids(slaves).
Moreover of the children of them that dwell as sojourners with you, of them may ye buy, and of their family that is with you, which they beget in your land, and they shall be your possession.
And ye shall leave them(the slaves) as an inheritance to your children after you, to inherit them(the slaves) as a possession: these may ye make your bondmen for ever; but as for your brethren, the children of Israel, ye shall not rule over one another with rigour.

One more example of God's morality on display follows:

Exo 21:20-21
And if a man strike his bondman(slave) or his handmaid with a staff, and he(the slave)die under his hand, he shall certainly be avenged.
Only, if he(the slave) continue (survive the beating and live) a day or two days, he shall not be avenged; for he(the slave) is his(the owner's) money(property).

There are many more examples of God's "moral" law which have very little to do with morality but the point has been made.

So according to this slavery is just fine as long as your personal God endorses it.

These types of pious Christian claims should always be given a swift kick right out the door of reason into the garbage can where they belong.

;)

“The eye has it...”

Since: May 09

Russell's Teapot

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#152056
Feb 6, 2013
 
Dave Nelson wrote:
<quoted text>
Are you mad because I didn't throw you a kiss?
Easy, Dave, easy ... this road don't go that way.

So, no, I don't want a kiss from you. Blown or otherwise.

NTTAWWT.

It just isn't my thing. Now you know.

“H-o-o-o-o-o-o-ld on thar!”

Since: Sep 08

The Borderland of Sol

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#152057
Feb 6, 2013
 
It aint necessarily so wrote:
<quoted text>
You were the source of that addition to the list. Thanks again. Kabong!
Ooops, was it here that I brought him up?

Apologies for the repetition...

“Fear is the Mind-Killer”

Since: Jun 08

Albuquerque, NM

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#152058
Feb 6, 2013
 

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Imhotep wrote:
<quoted text>
Failure to read thy Bible in not a valid excuse.
The Bible God also incorporated his brand of morality into the laws he gave his chosen people.
In the following,
God outlines his moral law regarding the buying of slaves:
Lev 25:44-46
And as for thy bondman(slaves) and thy handmaid(slaves) whom thou shalt have -- of the nations that are round about you, of them shall ye buy bondmen(slaves) and handmaids(slaves).
Moreover of the children of them that dwell as sojourners with you, of them may ye buy, and of their family that is with you, which they beget in your land, and they shall be your possession.
And ye shall leave them(the slaves) as an inheritance to your children after you, to inherit them(the slaves) as a possession: these may ye make your bondmen for ever; but as for your brethren, the children of Israel, ye shall not rule over one another with rigour.
One more example of God's morality on display follows:
Exo 21:20-21
And if a man strike his bondman(slave) or his handmaid with a staff, and he(the slave)die under his hand, he shall certainly be avenged.
Only, if he(the slave) continue (survive the beating and live) a day or two days, he shall not be avenged; for he(the slave) is his(the owner's) money(property).
There are many more examples of God's "moral" law which have very little to do with morality but the point has been made.
So according to this slavery is just fine as long as your personal God endorses it.
These types of pious Christian claims should always be given a swift kick right out the door of reason into the garbage can where they belong.
;)
Because slavery is a moral issue.

That does not follow that the Bible does not have morality. You started by saying there are NO morals in the Bible.

Now you are trying to change the subject. Do you now admit that you are wrong, and that the Bible does contain morality? Whether you believe such morals or wrong a right is an entirely different matter.

And, the science does not support you, since once again, Western Civilization was the first, EVER to outlaw slavery, and call it moral sin to own slaves.

No, that is not in the Bible. But not all Christians subscribe to Luther's Sola Scriptora, for which you argument would have to be based. The Church also as ORAL tradition equally as important as WRITTEN tradition, which condemn slavery outright.

Now how did that come to pass? Could it be that REGULATING how slaves was treated put into the minds of others the dangers of slavery entirely, which lead inevitably to its condemnation as a whole? History proves that this is a resounding yes ... minus Luther's Reformation which allowed slavery to creep back into the West temporarily.

You argument still fails, and Christianity is proven to be morally superior to all other moral systems, on HISTORICAL data alone.

“The eye has it...”

Since: May 09

Russell's Teapot

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#152059
Feb 6, 2013
 
It aint necessarily so wrote:
<quoted text>
But not air guitar. You'd be a chick magnet:
https://www.youtube.com/watch...
70+ years old.
https://www.youtube.com/watch...
On a homemade cigar box 4 string "geetar", too boot.

Another song, just for range.
https://www.youtube.com/watch...

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#152060
Feb 6, 2013
 
Yankee Yahoo wrote:
<quoted text>
Don't steal, don't kill, don't commit adultery ....
Um, is that not morality?
Jainism?
Well, the command from Jesus was to love God and your neighbor with all of your heart. Even if you excluded God, loving thy neighbor would still equal the following:
Right faith.
Right knowledge.
Right action.
No, my friend, you are quite mistaken.
Christian morals are not unique to Christianity, as you demonstrate with Jainism. No civilization on earth has ever arisen without exactly the kind of morals both Jainism, and Christianity, indeed promote.
Why? Because morals evolved with out species to make us the refined organisms that we are. Moral behavior goes hand in hand with human natural selection. We are at our best when we are moral with one another.
C.S. Lewis already pointed this out, in his attempt to clarify Christianity to the non-Christian. I think you are in dire need of his work, Mere Christianity, as you clearly do not understand this religion.
What is unique about Christianity, is that it remain the only religion where God Himself came doen to live amongst humans, where God Himself reached down to mankind to help him evolve even further to a higher state.
No other religion comes even close. So I reject your argument (clear Jainism is not superior) and counter with Christianity being the most superior religion on earth, AND, will include scientific data to prove it. The whole of Western Civilization amazing scientific achievements for the last 1600 years, tangible evidence of Christianity (with quite a bit of help from the Jews, I might add.)
Now, what civilizations has Jainism spawned? And if one exists (Asia somewhere?), how has that civilization proven superior to Western Europe?
"only religion where God Himself came doen to live amongst humans"

You should get knowledge on other religions before you make stuff up! The Indian religions also say God has come down to live on earth, it's your word against ours!

I don't agree with this 'Jainism person' though, even the Bible teaches good. Jainism is a philosophy that i personally don't agree with, even too much sugar can be poisonous!!

“The eye has it...”

Since: May 09

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#152061
Feb 6, 2013
 
Correction: *to boot

Since: Dec 11

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#152062
Feb 6, 2013
 
Yankee Yahoo wrote:
<quoted text>
And, the science does not support you, since once again, Western Civilization was the first, EVER to outlaw slavery, and call it moral sin to own slaves.
Buddhism explicitly denounced slavery long before that.
Yankee Yahoo wrote:
Could it be that REGULATING how slaves was treated put into the minds of others the dangers of slavery entirely, which lead inevitably to its condemnation as a whole? History proves that this is a resounding yes
That's totally absurd. The ancient Israelites knew the horrors of slavery because they WERE SLAVES (by their own mythology).

How ridiculously ineffective is the Bible god if he thinks slavery is wrong, but tells people to practice it anyway in the hopes that they may figure out it's not so good in a COUPLE THOUSAND YEARS?

Your attempt to credit Christianity with everything related to Western Civilization is ridiculous.

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#152063
Feb 6, 2013
 
Yankee Yahoo wrote:
<quoted text>
Because slavery is a moral issue.
That does not follow that the Bible does not have morality. You started by saying there are NO morals in the Bible.
Now you are trying to change the subject. Do you now admit that you are wrong, and that the Bible does contain morality? Whether you believe such morals or wrong a right is an entirely different matter.
And, the science does not support you, since once again, Western Civilization was the first, EVER to outlaw slavery, and call it moral sin to own slaves.
No, that is not in the Bible. But not all Christians subscribe to Luther's Sola Scriptora, for which you argument would have to be based. The Church also as ORAL tradition equally as important as WRITTEN tradition, which condemn slavery outright.
Now how did that come to pass? Could it be that REGULATING how slaves was treated put into the minds of others the dangers of slavery entirely, which lead inevitably to its condemnation as a whole? History proves that this is a resounding yes ... minus Luther's Reformation which allowed slavery to creep back into the West temporarily.
You argument still fails, and Christianity is proven to be morally superior to all other moral systems, on HISTORICAL data alone.
"Western Civilization was the first, EVER to outlaw slavery, and call it moral sin to own slaves."

Don't lie!

The west has a habit of committing evil acts and then making those acts illegal.

I have said this before that morals do not change, slavery was known to be wrong in India thousands of years ago, they knew and know the caste system was wrong, but people still keep doing it, it is not the fault of the religion.

Women in the west were not allowed to vote before the 20th century, when Sikhism had allowed women to join any occupation they wanted.

You people in the west need to understand that u r the last race to be 'civilized', the west has destroyed so many countries to get to where it is now!! It is not something to be proud of!!

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#152064
Feb 6, 2013
 
The_Box wrote:
<quoted text>
Buddhism explicitly denounced slavery long before that.
<quoted text>
That's totally absurd. The ancient Israelites knew the horrors of slavery because they WERE SLAVES (by their own mythology).
How ridiculously ineffective is the Bible god if he thinks slavery is wrong, but tells people to practice it anyway in the hopes that they may figure out it's not so good in a COUPLE THOUSAND YEARS?
Your attempt to credit Christianity with everything related to Western Civilization is ridiculous.
EXACTLY!!!

Moses was fighting the Egyptians and telling them to let his people go, but oh no, nobody knew slavery was bad in the olden days! lol!

People don't know what they're talking about! Either they never read a history book or if they have, they just wanna live in their own little box!

“Fear is the Mind-Killer”

Since: Jun 08

Albuquerque, NM

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#152065
Feb 6, 2013
 

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Clementia wrote:
<quoted text>
"only religion where God Himself came doen to live amongst humans"
You should get knowledge on other religions before you make stuff up! The Indian religions also say God has come down to live on earth, it's your word against ours!
I don't agree with this 'Jainism person' though, even the Bible teaches good. Jainism is a philosophy that i personally don't agree with, even too much sugar can be poisonous!!
Incorrect. The notion of "god" in India is not the same as "God" in our language. We are not speaking of the same kind of deity, at all.

A correct translation of the Vedic texts would replace the deities with the word "angel" or messengers, or those with advanced powers over the universe, but not the singular source of the universe.

I don't make stuff up. This is basic Christian theology, which is a study onto itself. If you want a better explanation, I always recommend Mere Christianity by CS Lewis.

No, it is not my word. It is the word of many people in the past. Now, if you wish to prove they are all liars, be my guest. But you will find that no one in 2000 years has been able to refute the historical facts of the time period, nor explain why Christianity emerged at all that explains a total shift in human thinking. It is then your word against all of history, not my word against anyone today. I make no claims. They have been made already, and sustained, and remain true until a solid refutation of the historical data is brought forth.

“Fear is the Mind-Killer”

Since: Jun 08

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#152066
Feb 6, 2013
 

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The_Box wrote:
<quoted text>
Buddhism explicitly denounced slavery long before that.
<quoted text>
That's totally absurd. The ancient Israelites knew the horrors of slavery because they WERE SLAVES (by their own mythology).
How ridiculously ineffective is the Bible god if he thinks slavery is wrong, but tells people to practice it anyway in the hopes that they may figure out it's not so good in a COUPLE THOUSAND YEARS?
Your attempt to credit Christianity with everything related to Western Civilization is ridiculous.
Well that is good. Now show me where Buddhism does this.

And show me where it has been practiced. Did the Han Dynasty condemn slavery? Did any other civilization condemn it? I am open to new information, please present it.

I do not credit it. Academia does, with such professors like Carroll Quigley who was a tutor for President Bill Clinton. So, merely saying something is ridiculous has no weight against higher education.

Or, perhaps you confuse "Western Civilization" with Western European Civilization. I am strictly excluding the Romans and Greeks, who, being west of Asia, are assumed to be part of "Western Civilization."

You do realize there is more than one definition for the term, right? I will try to include "European" next time, thank you.

Anyway, the data is there for all to see. Christianity rises, the Greco-Roman world falls, a new civilization is born, and it is more advanced than any known to mankind.

Who then, is responsible?

“In the beginning God Created..”

Since: Feb 12

Southern Illinois

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#152067
Feb 6, 2013
 
Imhotep wrote:
<quoted text>
Answer prayers? LOL
Seriously, do you really believe in prayer?
Why didn't God hear the Jews in death camps?
Earache or anti Semite?
If you pray for rain eventually it will rain.
It will rain eventually without a prayer also.
Why put prayer to the ultimate test aka Christian Scientists... Refuse medical treatment for prayer!
God will answer that transplant prayer right away!
How strong is your faith on prayer?
http://suite101.com/article/christian-scienti...
Iím positive that prayer works. I canít share the testimonies with you because you would think that I was making it all up so I will spare you from hearing them. Yes, Iím certain prayer works.

God doesnít answer every prayer as I would like but there are reasons why. You mentioned the Jews in the death camps. The atrocities against the Jews resulted in a new nation being born. That nation is Israel, created in 1948.

If it werenít for the Holocaust there would be no Israel today. It took something so horrible to bring the majority of the world together to fulfill bible prophecy. Isaiah 11:12

I believe in medical care and modern medicine. Jesus never criticized medicine or Doctors. There comes a time when medicine can do no more. Then itís time to take up a prayer before the King of Kings.

Prayer can not only be used for healing but for well being such as jobs and blessings. Your missing out my friend but thatís your choice.

“In the beginning God Created..”

Since: Feb 12

Southern Illinois

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#152069
Feb 6, 2013
 
madscot wrote:
<quoted text>
No shit? So the next time I have a full arrest come through my ER I can call you and let you pray for the patient to start breathing with a heartbeat and it will happen?
I believe in medical care and modern medicine. Jesus never criticized medicine or Doctors. There comes a time when medicine can do no more. I believe it is Godís will for us to use modern medicine. Did you know there was a Medical Doctor who was one of the early disciples? His name was Doctor Luke, MD.

If it was one of my loved ones in the Emergency Room dying. You can bet Iíll be pleading to God for a miracle. More especially if it is a child. I can tell you with a sincere heart. Children are worth praying for.

In cases where the elderly that have lived a full life. I have prayed that death come swiftly and take the love one on to the next camp ground. For death is a guarantee for all of us.

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