Atheism requires as much faith as religion?

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Atheism requires as much faith as religion? bearvspuma : The only problem with this rationalization is that ita s assuming all athiests are so because theya re intelligent in the ways of science and reasoning and all people that believe in a form of god are unintelligent.

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“Life may be sweeter for this”

Since: Nov 08

Fennario

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#150622
Jan 28, 2013
 
The first cause argument is not applicable to the universe as an entity. The idea of causality is derived from experience with objects much smaller than universes that are contained in them. You cannot extend the inductions (generalizations) derived from studying the whole and apply them to the parts. That one is called a fallacy of composition. From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy_of_compo... :
"The fallacy of composition arises when one infers that something is true of the whole from the fact that it is true of some part of the whole. For example: "This fragment of metal cannot be fractured with a hammer, therefore the machine of which it is a part cannot be fractured with a hammer."
We don't have enough information about universes to generalize about them, and there is an excellent argument against anything existing before time. Causes imply a before state and an after state. The word "before" has no meaning until T = 0+.
There is no "before time" just as there is nothing on earth south of the South Pole. The phrase is meaningless, as is the claim of a first cause preceding time.
mtimber wrote:
"You haven't seen everything, so you can't know if causality is constant."
Who did you think that you were quoting?

Do us both a favor and rebut my words, not your modified versions of them.
mtimber wrote:
Interesting how you personally however can claim the opposite: "I haven't seen everything but I do know that causality is not constant." Interesting that, don't you think?
I can't.
I didn't say that, either, so no, not very interesting. Nor very honest.

“Life may be sweeter for this”

Since: Nov 08

Fennario

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#150623
Jan 28, 2013
 

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mtimber wrote:
So lets examine your claim. You recognise that all worldviews rest on pre-suppositions, that then have to be tested.
You then set a standard that the correct worldview has to be empirically tested. Upon that basis, why would you say that "arockdidit", or "nothingexplodedetc" gives you an empirically based advantage?
I've never said that. If you are going to keep changing my words, we won't accomplish much.

My worldview - rational skepticism - is superior to yours - Christian fideism - based on the results each has produced both in my life and in the world.

Work with that. Please don't reword it and then argue with yourself again.

“Life may be sweeter for this”

Since: Nov 08

Fennario

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#150624
Jan 28, 2013
 
mtimber wrote:
Indeed, but which of my premises is false?
The existence of the Christian god. Its existence is demonstrably false. It's account of creation is wrong in every detail except one, for starters.

“Life may be sweeter for this”

Since: Nov 08

Fennario

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#150625
Jan 28, 2013
 
It aint necessarily so wrote:
Really? You need help with this one? OK. Because somebody lied to you that such a god exists and said such a thing.
mtimber wrote:
What is your absolute standard of morality upon which you base this claim?
How many times do you need to be told the same thing? No such thing exists or is necessary

Furthermore, mine was an existential claim, not a moral judgment.
mtimber wrote:
I point to the eternal pre-existing all knowing absolutely moral God. What do you point to, as an atheist, to support your claim?
Myself, people like me, and the empirical validity of rational ethics. It keeps making the world better.

Look at St.Paul, who with a simple pronouncement dispensed with Old Testament law and the law of Jehovah-Jesus.

Jesus taught in Matt. 5:18-19 that Old Testament law was still in effect: "For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach [them], the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven."

But Paul had a different idea in Romans 10:4: "For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness for every one who believes." That's rational ethics. Those laws were ridiculous, Paul recognized that, and simply dispensed with them.

“cdesign proponentsists”

Since: Jul 09

Pittsburgh, PA

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#150626
Jan 28, 2013
 
River Tam wrote:
<quoted text>
That's a totally gay song.
There are newer ones.
This isn't one of them.
http://www.youtube.com/watch...
If you were old, it would still be cool!!
Imhotep

Floral City, FL

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#150627
Jan 28, 2013
 
Eagle12 wrote:
<quoted text>
we to believe these are your words and not from an Atheist web site?
I find it so odd that if a Christian goes to a Christian site and repost something already in print. The Atheist cast repulsive comments for such action.
You have also failed to list your source which can be found. This is plagiarism, my good Atheist friend. It is taking what someone else owns and claiming it for yourself.
These are not your arguments but repost from off the shelf Atheist web sites. I would challenge you to come up with your own words and research.
Try this site, Christian.
PTL!

http://m.youtube.com/#/watch...

Learn from this one
http://m.youtube.com/#/watch...

“Think&Care”

Since: Oct 07

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#150628
Jan 28, 2013
 
Serah wrote:
While I see no irreconcilable conflicts between the book of Genesis and evolutionary science, what we are learning about the relatedness of all living things through the information molecule of DNA offers the chance of a new and exciting interpretation of God’s plan in creating humans in His image.
From *your* post. Francis Collins understands evolution and knows it happened. He also thinks it is consistent with the Biblical account.

Once again, as long as he does his science correctly and doesn't attempt to get religion taught as science, I have no problem.

“Life may be sweeter for this”

Since: Nov 08

Fennario

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#150629
Jan 28, 2013
 
Serah wrote:
<quoted text>Perhaps you have experienced amazing coincidences or deja vu?
Yes to the déjà vu.

“Life may be sweeter for this”

Since: Nov 08

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#150630
Jan 28, 2013
 
solopassage wrote:
Jesus corrected the Jewish doctrines of the Old Testament by introducing a new system of ethics
What ethics were introduced by Jesus?
Thinking

Huntingdon, UK

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#150631
Jan 28, 2013
 

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We should expect coincidences to occur.
If there weren't coincidences I'd suspect the world was only pseudo random.
It aint necessarily so wrote:
<quoted text>
Yes to the déjà vu.

Since: Sep 08

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#150632
Jan 28, 2013
 
River Tam wrote:
<quoted text>
I don't know. I'm not an architect, I'm a musician.
I play the violin. The acoustics were nice. You tell me.
My momma was a Florida Cracker with some musical talent, and a love for music. Was raised with a variety of music playing in that house.

She said something one time that has stayed with me. She said God loved musicians.

Maybe he pains some of them to get more soulful sounds out of them. Not the topical math based stuff, but from the soul.

One of the more profound effects of my death experience was a realization of how important music is. It is very quiet when you are dead and disembodied.

Since: Sep 08

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#150633
Jan 28, 2013
 
Come to think of it, life IS an emotional experience.

It's what gives it flavor.

“Today we pray”

Since: Jul 12

"tomorrow we win"

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#150634
Jan 28, 2013
 
It aint necessarily so wrote:
The existence of the Christian god. Its existence is demonstrably false.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAA !!!!

Whew!

Why don't you save us all a boat load of trouble & take your "findings" to the media & demonstrate to the world that God is non-existant...

No?

OK then, just keep making unsubstantiated, ridiculous posts on Topix.

Since: Sep 08

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#150635
Jan 28, 2013
 
It is odd the effect music has on creatures, isn't it? The moods and emotions it can stir. Strange phenomenon for evolved material beings.

The guitar was banned by the Church for a while after it came out. Stirred up too much licentious passions.

I am sure they played some rock and roll way back then, too. Comes natural.
Pat

Granby, CT

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#150636
Jan 28, 2013
 
RiversideRedneck wrote:
<quoted text>
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAA !!!!
Whew!
Why don't you save us all a boat load of trouble & take your "findings" to the media & demonstrate to the world that God is non-existant...
No?
OK then, just keep making unsubstantiated, ridiculous posts on Topix.
How easily you can spot an unsubstantiated claim when you disagree with it but are unable to spot a unsubstantiated claim if you find it personally appealing. The hypocrisy of the theist exposed once again.
bohart

Morristown, TN

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#150637
Jan 28, 2013
 

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polymath257 wrote:
<quoted text>
The difference is that we are very early in our investigations of abiogenesis. it is only recently that we have learned the chemical foundations for life (even the simple fact that DNA is the genetic material was only learned 55 years ago). We are also only beginning to really understand the conditions on the early earth. In addition, when we have investigated this question, the obstacles that originally appeared have, over time, been found to be *less* of a problem than expected. It was originally thought that organic compounds could only arise in living systems. That was shown wrong. Then it was thought that amino acids couldn't form under conditions expected on the early earth. That was found wrong. Then it was thought that polymerization to form more complicated chemicals would be unlikely and that was found wrong. And it was thought that membrane systems wouldn't be able to form and *that* was found to be wrong.
The problems are that we do not understand the chemistry for life nearly well enough to solve this problem yet. But each obstacle that was thought to be there has been shown to dissipate under study.
So the question of abiogenesis is closer to attempting to bridge a gap than anything else. Life *is* a chemical process. The main question is how the original chemicals came together in the correct amounts and in the right places.
We can also turn this around and note that *every* time we have found a cause for *anything*, it has always been a physical cause. That is absolute and nothing has ever even hinted at anything different. So, again, it is reasonable to suspect a physical cause for the beginning of life.
Yes, because you say its different. Tell me what violations of the law of biogenesis , that life only comes from existing life, have ever been seen using your beloved scientific method? Since we all know the answer is zero, yours is a faith based belief.Also your same old worn out lies about amino acids,polymerization, organic compounds, etc, are all lab created and mean nothing when it comes to life . Nothing

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#150638
Jan 28, 2013
 
Pat wrote:
<quoted text>
How easily you can spot an unsubstantiated claim when you disagree with it but are unable to spot a unsubstantiated claim if you find it personally appealing. The hypocrisy of the theist exposed once again.
Bean plants can grow some pretty flowers. These flowers blossom in the sunshine and can look about to see where it is, which communicates such to the rest of the plant. It has perspective.

Your perspective is that of a toadstool.

“Life may be sweeter for this”

Since: Nov 08

Fennario

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#150639
Jan 28, 2013
 
bohart wrote:
Tell me what violations of the law of biogenesis , that life only comes from existing life, have ever been seen using your beloved scientific method? Since we all know the answer is zero, yours is a faith based belief.
Scientists wouldn't be spending so much effort trying to solve the problem of abiogenesis if existing evidence didn't point them in that direction.

By contrast, they aren't looking for perpetual motion machines, since the evidence suggests that that would be a dead end.

You really don't understand what evidence is,or how it can be used. It isn't necessary to see abiogenesis to suspect it or find it.

The mere fact that science has found so many naturalistic explanations for physical phenomena like lightning and eclipses is evidence that other phenomena will succumb to similar investigations using the same method.
bohart wrote:
Also your same old worn out lies about amino acids,polymerization, organic compounds, etc, are all lab created and mean nothing when it comes to life . Nothing
Then you don't know biochemistry. Those are the ABCs of living things and life.

“Today we pray”

Since: Jul 12

"tomorrow we win"

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#150640
Jan 28, 2013
 
Pat wrote:
<quoted text>
How easily you can spot an unsubstantiated claim when you disagree with it but are unable to spot a unsubstantiated claim if you find it personally appealing. The hypocrisy of the theist exposed once again.
Awesome. So you can't demonstrate that God doesn't exist.

Wouldn't it have been easier just to say that?
Thinking

Huntingdon, UK

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#150641
Jan 28, 2013
 
Tough sh!t. The research is happening without you.
bohart wrote:
<quoted text>
Yes, because you say its different. Tell me what violations of the law of biogenesis , that life only comes from existing life, have ever been seen using your beloved scientific method? Since we all know the answer is zero, yours is a faith based belief.Also your same old worn out lies about amino acids,polymerization, organic compounds, etc, are all lab created and mean nothing when it comes to life . Nothing

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