Atheism requires as much faith as rel...

Atheism requires as much faith as religion?

There are 244885 comments on the Webbunny tumblelog story from Jul 18, 2009, titled Atheism requires as much faith as religion?. In it, Webbunny tumblelog reports that:

Atheism requires as much faith as religion? bearvspuma : The only problem with this rationalization is that ita s assuming all athiests are so because theya re intelligent in the ways of science and reasoning and all people that believe in a form of god are unintelligent.

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Since: Sep 08

Westcliffe, CO

#150479 Jan 27, 2013
polymath257 wrote:
<quoted text>
I agree. But there are many things about quantum mechanics that differ from classical mechanics and one of them is the lack of causes. Since quantum mechanics *does* agree with *all* available evidence, we should give some credence to its conclusions. Among these conclusions are that objects do not have well defined properties outside of observation and that the classical notion of causality does not apply to quantum events.
Now,*you* are, once again, the one claiming that we cannot draw conclusions based on the observations we have done. Among the conclusions is the simple fact that a muon just before a decay is *exactly* the same as a muon at any other time. So the 'cause' of the decay is not internal to the muon. But there is also nothing *outside* interacting, so there is no cause outside either.
<quoted text>
Please be more detailed here. Which elements do you think it is affected by?
<quoted text>
One the contrary, we *can* prove the earth is not flat via observation. Muons have been studies for the last 50+ years and their properties are quite well known.
<quoted text>
You may suggest it, but you are wrong. I often wish the universe were more deterministic and had more causality than it does. but the actual evidence is that classical notions of causality are simply wrong. And yes, the tests actually do test *all* possible causal theories.
"So the 'cause' of the decay is not internal to the muon. But there is also nothing *outside* interacting, so there is no cause outside either."

Prove that last phrase.

You can't.

There is no difference between a bubble at the bottom of the ocean being affected by water pressure and a muon anywhere in the universe. All in the same container. Buoyancy is universal if gravity is. More accurately, is the forces and relationships in all directions that causes buoyancy.

“ecrasez l'infame”

Since: May 08

Atlanta, Georgia

#150480 Jan 27, 2013
Dave Nelson wrote:
<quoted text>
Where does it say it was a planned perfection?
So "original sin" was part of the plan all along. Interesting twist for an apologetic position. So this deity created hell and the serpent and set the whole thing up. Then pretends it's all Eve's fault. That is one vile, sick deity you grovel to.

Since: Apr 09

Location hidden

#150481 Jan 27, 2013
mtimber wrote:
<quoted text>
Imply what you like, it is irrelevant to the point I made...
Nice dodge, bro.

Since: Apr 09

Location hidden

#150482 Jan 27, 2013
mtimber wrote:
<quoted text>
In other words, you cannot deal with the arguments so hide behind a pretended wisdom...
Pot, meet kettle.

“The eye has it...”

Since: May 09

Russell's Teapot

#150483 Jan 27, 2013
Dave Nelson wrote:
<quoted text>
Where does it say it was a planned perfection?
The deity is infallible. That is its stated nature within the bible.

Personally, it makes little difference to me since I find it to be a myth, but the deity is said to be perfect in all it does.

Look at this verse in Deuteronomy.

TNK Deuteronomy 32:4 The Rock!-- His deeds are perfect, Yea, all His ways are just; A faithful God, never false, True and upright is He.(Deu 32:4 TNK)

Now: TNK Genesis 2:2 On the seventh day God finished the work that He had been doing, and He ceased on the seventh day from all the work that He had done.(Gen 2:2 TNK)

The claims within the bible are that all work the deity performs is perfect.

The deity judged the work it had performed as "very good":

TNK Genesis 1:31 And God saw all that He had made, and found it very good. And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day.(Gen 1:31 TNK)

I'm not the one writing this stuff. That is the "official" Judaic take on the deity. Within the myth, all the deity does is perfect. This is no secret.
Imhotep

Wesley Chapel, FL

#150484 Jan 27, 2013
mtimber wrote:
<quoted text>
What is your absolute standard of morality upon which you base this claim?
I point to the eternal pre-existing all knowing absolutely moral God.
What do you point to, as an atheist, to support your claim?
Moral God?

Read the Bible

When a person reads declarations like this, they must always keep in mind that to a zealous Christian, all other belief systems are false by definition.

Nothing moral exists outside of the theological cocoon Christians reside in.

So of course, when these zealots speak of a "belief in and love for God", it must be the Bible God and no other. In other words, unless you believe in and love the Bible God, you can never be "totally" moral.

There are many examples of God's "morals" which are anything but moral according to modern "civilized" societies.

Perhaps the most obvious example of God's questionable morals can be found regarding the issue of slavery.

The Bible God endorsed slavery. That's a fact according to the Bible. Christians however, don't like this to be pointed out about their God so they'll attempt to dilute this ugly fact by claiming that God simply "tolerated" slavery but never endorsed it.
A few quotes from the Bible dissolve this cozy notion and rather lame attempt to wash God's hands of this ugly doctrine.

The Bible God gave instructions on how his chosen people should wage war against their various neighbors:

Deut 20:10-11
When thou comest nigh unto a city to fight against it, then proclaim peace unto it.

And it shall be, if it make thee answer of peace, and open unto thee, then it shall be, that all the people that is found therein shall be tributaries(forced laborers) unto thee, and they shall serve thee.

Notice that if the people of the attacked city accept the "offer of peace" they will become slaves of God's chosen people. Forced labor is slavery.

Deut 20:12-16
And if it will make no peace with thee, but will make war against thee, then thou shalt besiege it:
And when the LORD thy God hath delivered it into thine hands, thou shalt smite every male thereof with the edge of the sword:

But the women, and the little ones, and the cattle, and all that is in the city, even all the spoil thereof, shalt thou take unto thyself; and thou shalt eat the spoil of thine enemies, which the LORD thy God hath given thee.

Thus shalt thou do unto all the cities which are very far off from thee, which are not of the cities of these nations.

But of the cities of these people, which the LORD thy God doth give thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth:

Notice that God instructs his people to completely annihilate nearby nations, killing anything that "breathes", while nations further outside an immediate zone of holiness will have their men killed, their women, children, livestock and everything else taken as plunder by God's chosen people.

Does any of this actually sound "moral" ? This is the same Bible God which Christians say that society must believe in and love in order to have a totally moral society.

Are slavery and mass genocide "moral" just because this deity commanded it?

Read the Bible... It is obvious you enjoy scant knowledge of its contents.

Since: Nov 12

Location hidden

#150485 Jan 27, 2013
mtimber wrote:
<quoted text>
My argument is quite logical.
Everything created has a cause.
Everything created from other materials or from nothing?
mtimber wrote:
<quoted text>
The first cause has to be by nature eternal.
Why? Because nothing came before it?
mtimber wrote:
<quoted text>
To be eternal, the first cause has to operate outside of time.
""Operate" outside of time" is illogical. Like its royal blue but colorless.
mtimber wrote:
<quoted text>
The first cause has to be omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent, all loving and eternal.
Huge jump. Also has nothing to do with love.
mtimber wrote:
<quoted text>
On the point of God being eternal.
He reveals the future consistently and accurately, therefore affirming He is outside of time and therefore the First Cause.
No. That is what you believe and I understand you feel it is true... Maybe you could give an example of this accurate future he revealed. However predicting the future doesn't "prove" being outside of time. There is no reason to make that connection.

Since: Sep 08

Westcliffe, CO

#150486 Jan 27, 2013
scaritual wrote:
<quoted text>
The deity is infallible. That is its stated nature within the bible.
Personally, it makes little difference to me since I find it to be a myth, but the deity is said to be perfect in all it does.
Look at this verse in Deuteronomy.
TNK Deuteronomy 32:4 The Rock!-- His deeds are perfect, Yea, all His ways are just; A faithful God, never false, True and upright is He.(Deu 32:4 TNK)
Now: TNK Genesis 2:2 On the seventh day God finished the work that He had been doing, and He ceased on the seventh day from all the work that He had done.(Gen 2:2 TNK)
The claims within the bible are that all work the deity performs is perfect.
The deity judged the work it had performed as "very good":
TNK Genesis 1:31 And God saw all that He had made, and found it very good. And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day.(Gen 1:31 TNK)
I'm not the one writing this stuff. That is the "official" Judaic take on the deity. Within the myth, all the deity does is perfect. This is no secret.
You think much the same of scientists.

They know more than you, so they must be right. Perfect.

Yessir, Boss, you right. No argument from me.

“I Am No One Else”

Since: Apr 12

Seattle

#150487 Jan 27, 2013
Dave Nelson wrote:
<quoted text>
You think much the same of scientists.
They know more than you, so they must be right. Perfect.
Yessir, Boss, you right. No argument from me.
Scientists will also allow you to see and test their evidence, which is a huge improvement from what preachers do.

“In the beginning God Created..”

Since: Feb 12

Southern Illinois

#150488 Jan 27, 2013
Givemeliberty wrote:
Keep quacking daffy at least you are good for a laugh.
I couldn't help but notice you failed to answer my question about Jesus' failed prophecy, must be a tremendous shame that your messiah failed so miserably and worse lied to children! Tisk! How low could he go?
So do tell daffy, you lied oops I mean claimed that your dad was an atheist but converted on his death bed when a Middle Eastern man went into his room yes? So who was this Arab anyways? I mean you do know hospitals just don't allow anyone to go into patients rooms especially deathly ill patients thy are understandably extra protective of. When my grandpa was dying I always had to sign in even though they knew me by name. So this Middle Eastern man had to have been on his approved contact list or had to be an approved member of the hospital staff. Now for concern of your father when he told this story didn't you enquire who this strange person was? Who was he? What did he do?
<quoted text>
Out goes through yonder open window the noxious words of a immoralist. Sardonic by nature and perfidious in action. These drossy words of a unlettered katzenjammer ninnyhammer do I cast threw into the abyss from which it came.

“Rising”

Since: Dec 10

Milky Way

#150489 Jan 27, 2013
Hedonist wrote:
<quoted text>
So "original sin" was part of the plan all along. Interesting twist for an apologetic position. So this deity created hell and the serpent and set the whole thing up. Then pretends it's all Eve's fault. That is one vile, sick deity you grovel to.
Don't go eating my private stash tree either, see that one over there with the big red budding flowers that looks so delicious and tasty that is absolutely yummy. Don't you dare touch those great tasting goody fruits that burst with flavor in your mouth. I'm not warning you about that snake talk either. I will be going right now where I can't see if you sneak over to the tree and I'll be back in a couple hours so stay away from it now I mean it!

“I Am No One Else”

Since: Apr 12

Seattle

#150490 Jan 27, 2013
Eagle12 wrote:
<quoted text>
Out goes through yonder open window the noxious words of a immoralist. Sardonic by nature and perfidious in action. These drossy words of a unlettered katzenjammer ninnyhammer do I cast threw into the abyss from which it came.
If you are going to try to use bigger words, please learn how to spell them and conjugate correctly, because all your failures in this post make your entire argument a joke.

Since: Nov 12

Location hidden

#150491 Jan 27, 2013
mtimber wrote:
<quoted text>
I have demonstrated it.
The Bible clearly shows that you are lying on this matter.
And as the Bible has shown it can be trusted, then I see no reason to take your word over the truths it clearly reveals.
You do know of God, but you suppress that truth so that you can continue in sin.
You say you don't lie, as if there is an absolute moral value you wish to ascribe to yourself.
Why would you, as an atheist be concerned about that?
You see, you claim to live by atheistic principles of morality, but then you appeal to Christian principles of morality as the defining standard of your character.
Which reveals, that yes, you do know God, but you deny Him as it suits your purpose to...
Well...... it was fun while it lasted. This response is just as ignorant as the rest of the name callers. Just using enough class to not use words like idiot and retard.

It would be very illogical to know god exists but pretend you dont so you can sin!

I hope you were just having a moment and you haven't lost control.

“The eye has it...”

Since: May 09

Russell's Teapot

#150492 Jan 27, 2013
Dave Nelson wrote:
<quoted text>
You think much the same of scientists.
They know more than you, so they must be right. Perfect.
Yessir, Boss, you right. No argument from me.
It's OK if you don't have a response, Dave.

Don't be angry.

Maybe some prayer would do you some good right now.

“Rising”

Since: Dec 10

Milky Way

#150493 Jan 27, 2013
KittenKoder wrote:
<quoted text>
Scientists will also allow you to see and test their evidence, which is a huge improvement from what preachers do.
Did you know people weren't even allowed to read and interpret the bible for themselves for over a thousand years? Martin Luther was the first to support people reading it themselves.

“In the beginning God Created..”

Since: Feb 12

Southern Illinois

#150494 Jan 27, 2013
KittenKoder wrote:
<quoted text>
The sad state of a theist, you take pride in being uneducated and stupid.
I shall take your elegant words and inscribe them on soft toiletry tissue. Then when nature calls I shall use them to wipe. Your insolent words will have had some special purpose, bless you.

“I Am No One Else”

Since: Apr 12

Seattle

#150495 Jan 27, 2013
Aura Mytha wrote:
<quoted text> Did you know people weren't even allowed to read and interpret the bible for themselves for over a thousand years? Martin Luther was the first to support people reading it themselves.
That was part of my point. It is actually one of the pet peeves Mormons have with other christian religions, the preachers still try to discourage people from reading the bible in most churches, but the Mormons make you memorize it as a child.

Since: Sep 10

Long Beach, CA

#150496 Jan 27, 2013
Eagle12 wrote:
<quoted text>
Out goes through yonder open window the noxious words of a immoralist. Sardonic by nature and perfidious in action. These drossy words of a unlettered katzenjammer ninnyhammer do I cast threw into the abyss from which it came.
For shame, Eagle.

Look at the mess you have made of the English language, and weep.

“In the beginning God Created..”

Since: Feb 12

Southern Illinois

#150497 Jan 27, 2013
KittenKoder wrote:
<quoted text>
If you are going to try to use bigger words, please learn how to spell them and conjugate correctly, because all your failures in this post make your entire argument a joke.
You have enlightened and entertained the accomplished with your benightedness.

Since: Sep 10

Long Beach, CA

#150498 Jan 27, 2013
Dave Nelson wrote:
<quoted text>
Yessir, Boss, you right. No argument from me.
I have been meaning to ask you something, Dave.

Are you getting your Rocky Mountain high?

Do you have a dispensary nearby?

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