Atheism requires as much faith as religion?

Atheism requires as much faith as religion? bearvspuma : The only problem with this rationalization is that ita s assuming all athiests are so because theya re intelligent in the ways of science and reasoning and all people that believe in a form of god are unintelligent. Full Story

“Life may be sweeter for this”

Since: Nov 08

Fennario

#150329 Jan 27, 2013
Serah wrote:
You have obviously not had any messages from your Ancestors from the other side.
That is correct, but my eyes and ears are wide open. Maybe today.

Since: Sep 08

Westcliffe, CO

#150330 Jan 27, 2013
Hedonist wrote:
<quoted text>
Which, by you way of reasoning, must have been produced by something beyond its comprehension and a lot smarter that it ... which must have been produced by something beyond its comprehension and a lot smarter that it ... etc ... etc ... etc.
You probably impress the hell out of yourself by coming up with such reasoning. It sounds so intellectual. Even if it just leaves you sitting there with your mind running in circles, going nowhere.

“I Am No One Else”

Since: Apr 12

Seattle

#150331 Jan 27, 2013
Dave Nelson wrote:
<quoted text>
You probably impress the hell out of yourself by coming up with such reasoning. It sounds so intellectual. Even if it just leaves you sitting there with your mind running in circles, going nowhere.
It is a valid point. If everything requires something intelligent to create, then so does that which creates it require something intelligent to create, thereby creating an infinite regression. If one thing can exist, anything at all, without intelligent creation then so can anything exist without intelligent creation. Thus if you propose a god that created this universe that was not created by something else, then the universe itself can happen to exist without that god you proposed, making the existence of such a god meaningless and useless.

“Life may be sweeter for this”

Since: Nov 08

Fennario

#150332 Jan 27, 2013
mtimber wrote:
It is not "known" that anything is uncaused. You have assumed something is uncaused, but you have no empirical evidence for that claim.
The physicists tell us that quantum events are uncaused, and there is good experimental evidence to support that claim.

Do you believe that there is free will? If you believe that any aspect of will is uncaused, then you just contradicted yourself. If you believe that every aspect of will and is determined by a cause, then you have ruled out the possibility of free will.

“Life may be sweeter for this”

Since: Nov 08

Fennario

#150333 Jan 27, 2013
polymath257 wrote:
Because the Big Bang theory ... works very well from less than a nanosecond into the expansion phase until the present.
mtimber wrote:
So that nanosecond, what happened then?
He said less than a nanosecond.

It's actually, much, much, MUCH less than a nanosecond, perhaps as little as 5.4 x 10E-44 seconds, the Planck time.

A nanosecond is 10E-9 seconds, a billionth of a second.

A billionth of a billionth of a second is called an attosecond, 10E-18 seconds.

A millionth of this value is called a yoctosecond, 10E-24 seconds. After this, we run out of prefixes, with twenty more powers of ten needed. The amount of time we are discussing is less than a billion billionths of a yoctosecond - much less, about 2%.

54 billion billion billion billion billionths of a second. That's the size of the gap that your god must squeeze into for now.

@ polymath - did I get that right?

Since: Mar 11

Chicago, IL

#150334 Jan 27, 2013
My turn my turn! You don't have to tell me twice to let the boys breathe free of the confines of demon pants!

You let the girls breathe along with that breathing exercise I taught you and beautiful babies are bound to happen ;-)
Clementia wrote:
<quoted text>
U lucky u weren't around last night, i was possessed by a spirit or something!
Yes Sir!
I'll teach them the breathing technique u taught me..
Inhale, exhale and repeat....Inhale, exhale and repeat...Inhale, exhale and repeat...!
You were right it does come in handy!
OK, now your turn to let the boys breathe! ;-)

Since: Sep 08

Westcliffe, CO

#150335 Jan 27, 2013
KittenKoder wrote:
<quoted text>
It is a valid point. If everything requires something intelligent to create, then so does that which creates it require something intelligent to create, thereby creating an infinite regression. If one thing can exist, anything at all, without intelligent creation then so can anything exist without intelligent creation. Thus if you propose a god that created this universe that was not created by something else, then the universe itself can happen to exist without that god you proposed, making the existence of such a god meaningless and useless.
Sweetie, you are at the bottom of the pecking order. Follow the chain of command.

Since: Jan 13

Location hidden

#150336 Jan 27, 2013
KittenKoder wrote:
<quoted text>
You don't know, we don't know, you just lie and claim you do know.
I have made no such claim...

Since: Jan 13

Location hidden

#150337 Jan 27, 2013
KittenKoder wrote:
<quoted text>
nothing is cause by anything.
Can you clarify this as it appears you are claiming that nothing has a source?

Since: Jan 13

Location hidden

#150338 Jan 27, 2013
KittenKoder wrote:
<quoted text>
You don't know, we don't know, you just lie and claim you do know.
So you accept it as a presupposition that it must have happened?

You don't know it did, or how it did, but you know it did...

Please clarify.

“I Am No One Else”

Since: Apr 12

Seattle

#150339 Jan 27, 2013
Dave Nelson wrote:
<quoted text>
Sweetie, you are at the bottom of the pecking order. Follow the chain of command.
If only you actually knew something. Can you not address the infinite regression or are you proposing that only your god is exempt from the "everything needs a creator" assertion?

“I Am No One Else”

Since: Apr 12

Seattle

#150340 Jan 27, 2013
mtimber wrote:
<quoted text>
Can you clarify this as it appears you are claiming that nothing has a source?
Can you avoid red herrings?

Since: Jan 13

Location hidden

#150341 Jan 27, 2013
KittenKoder wrote:
<quoted text>
It is a valid point. If everything requires something intelligent to create, then so does that which creates it require something intelligent to create, thereby creating an infinite regression. If one thing can exist, anything at all, without intelligent creation then so can anything exist without intelligent creation. Thus if you propose a god that created this universe that was not created by something else, then the universe itself can happen to exist without that god you proposed, making the existence of such a god meaningless and useless.
Strawman.

No one is arguing that "everything" is created by intelligence.

What is being argued that all things that are created, were created by intelligence.

God is eternal, so is not a part of the creation.

Since: Jan 13

Location hidden

#150342 Jan 27, 2013
It aint necessarily so wrote:
<quoted text>
The physicists tell us that quantum events are uncaused, and there is good experimental evidence to support that claim.
Do you believe that there is free will? If you believe that any aspect of will is uncaused, then you just contradicted yourself. If you believe that every aspect of will and is determined by a cause, then you have ruled out the possibility of free will.
No they do not.

Some physicists say that, not all of them.

You have made a false appeal to authority.

Since: Jan 13

Location hidden

#150343 Jan 27, 2013
It aint necessarily so wrote:
<quoted text>
<quoted text>
He said less than a nanosecond.
It's actually, much, much, MUCH less than a nanosecond, perhaps as little as 5.4 x 10E-44 seconds, the Planck time.
A nanosecond is 10E-9 seconds, a billionth of a second.
A billionth of a billionth of a second is called an attosecond, 10E-18 seconds.
A millionth of this value is called a yoctosecond, 10E-24 seconds. After this, we run out of prefixes, with twenty more powers of ten needed. The amount of time we are discussing is less than a billion billionths of a yoctosecond - much less, about 2%.
54 billion billion billion billion billionths of a second. That's the size of the gap that your god must squeeze into for now.
@ polymath - did I get that right?
So what happened during this (rather inconvenient for atheism) nanosecond?

You do not know?

So you accept that the origin of the universe was caused by something that you cannot explain or quantify.

But you know it was not God.

Your pre-suppositional bias is apparent and revealed in your logically fallacious contradiction.

“I Am No One Else”

Since: Apr 12

Seattle

#150344 Jan 27, 2013
mtimber wrote:
<quoted text>
Strawman.
No one is arguing that "everything" is created by intelligence.
What is being argued that all things that are created, were created by intelligence.
God is eternal, so is not a part of the creation.
In which case, the universe itself can happen into existence without a "creator." Thus, your presupposition of there being a required creator for the universe is invalid. Science is correct in assuming that it is not required and therefore should progress as is, without any religious nonsense perverting it.

“ The Lord of delirious minds.”

Since: Dec 10

Location hidden

#150345 Jan 27, 2013
It aint necessarily so wrote:
<quoted text>
<quoted text>
He said less than a nanosecond.
It's actually, much, much, MUCH less than a nanosecond, perhaps as little as 5.4 x 10E-44 seconds, the Planck time.
A nanosecond is 10E-9 seconds, a billionth of a second.
A billionth of a billionth of a second is called an attosecond, 10E-18 seconds.
A millionth of this value is called a yoctosecond, 10E-24 seconds. After this, we run out of prefixes, with twenty more powers of ten needed. The amount of time we are discussing is less than a billion billionths of a yoctosecond - much less, about 2%.
54 billion billion billion billion billionths of a second. That's the size of the gap that your god must squeeze into for now.
@ polymath - did I get that right?
Actually everything back to about 150 million to a billion years
after the the event is pretty much theoretical.
But is tested in those giant collider's to get ideas on how particles and the forces behave.

Here is the citation from Wiki, which is the very first thing it say's.

"All ideas concerning the very early universe (cosmogony) are speculative. No accelerator experiments have yet probed energies of sufficient magnitude to provide any experimental insight into the behavior of matter at the energy levels that prevailed during this period."

Then.

Early universe

Cosmic History After cosmic inflation ends, the universe is filled with a quark–gluon plasma. From this point onwards the physics of the early universe is better understood, and less speculative.

Quark epoch Between 10–12 seconds and 10–6 seconds after the Big Bang.

(((This is where we can be really sure experiments are showing a exact reflection of took place.))))

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronology_of_th...

But even at 10-6 seconds it's a microsecond , and leaves little room for magic.

Since: Jan 13

Location hidden

#150346 Jan 27, 2013
KittenKoder wrote:
<quoted text>
Can you avoid red herrings?
I quoted your point, please respond to it rather than try to change the subject.

You stated that nothing was caused by everything.

I suspected you did not mean that to come out that way, but asked you to clarify it.

Rational discussion requires that you engage in a conversation.

If you want to be respected as rational, then you should respond respond rationally and qualify your point if someone else thinks it is not all that clear...

“ The Lord of delirious minds.”

Since: Dec 10

Location hidden

#150347 Jan 27, 2013
KittenKoder wrote:
<quoted text>
If only you actually knew something. Can you not address the infinite regression or are you proposing that only your god is exempt from the "everything needs a creator" assertion?
He exempts himself from the laws of science , do you expect his god to obey them?

Since: Apr 09

Location hidden

#150348 Jan 27, 2013
mtimber wrote:
<quoted text>
Strawman.
No one is arguing that "everything" is created by intelligence.
What is being argued that all things that are created, were created by intelligence.
God is eternal, so is not a part of the creation.
zzzzzz

There is not now, nor has there ever been, any proof of any god's existence.

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