Atheism requires as much faith as religion?

Atheism requires as much faith as religion? bearvspuma : The only problem with this rationalization is that ita s assuming all athiests are so because theya re intelligent in the ways of science and reasoning and all people that believe in a form of god are unintelligent. Full Story

Since: Jan 13

Location hidden

#149842 Jan 24, 2013
Givemeliberty wrote:
Wow this one is getting as bad as Muq is when it comes to avoiding questions! Hahaha! Questions and reason truly are the believers greatest fear.
You have shown repeatedly that you are unable to answer any questions hence you are ill prepared to attempt to debate. Childishly dodging questions shows you are not up to the task. You have failed as expected. Saying god exists because I said so and running like hell from questions just doesn't cut it and bottom line that's all you have.
I humbly accept your unequivocal defeat and surrender. I am not bragging it was all too easy.
That'll do Christhole, that'll do. Now I suspect you have some logical fallacies to post and questions to hide from :)
Checkmate.
<quoted text>
Was there a question mixed in with your appeal to your own arbitrary assumption of superiority?

I did not see one...

“In the beginning God Created..”

Since: Feb 12

Southern Illinois

#149843 Jan 24, 2013
The_Box wrote:
<quoted text>
The god of the OT explicitly allows Israelites to take girls captured in war and make them their wives *without any consent*. Wives were expected to service their husbands sexually.
The Israelites did not view this as rape because women were essentially the property of their husbands.
But I know, and you know, that it's rape.
You are insinuating a women taken in captivity and married is a sex slave. I respectfully disagree.“Without any consent” is your words and those words are not in the bible in reference to this subject. A assumption on your part and not factual.

The only way a marriage will work is if both parties willingly agree. And both parties are lovingly bonded.

Genesis 24:48-51, 58-67

Here we find of an example where the wife to be is asked.

So they called Rebekah and asked her,
“Do you wish to go with this man?”
She answered,“I do.”

Here is an example where the woman was asked about marriage.

Genesis 2

“The Lord God said:“It is not good for the man to be alone.”

“I will make a suitable partner for him.”

“That is why a man leaves his father and mother
and clings to his wife, and the two of them become one body.”

Here we have a reference to a partner and a partnership.

Proverbs 31 gives details as to what a wife means.

10 Who can find a virtuous woman? for her price is far above rubies.

11 The heart of her husband doth safely trust in her, so that he shall have no need of spoil.

12 She will do him good and not evil all the days of her life.

13 She seeketh wool, and flax, and worketh willingly with her hands.

14 She is like the merchants' ships; she bringeth her food from afar.

15 She riseth also while it is yet night, and giveth meat to her household, and a portion to her maidens.

16 She considereth a field, and buyeth it: with the fruit of her hands she planteth a vineyard.

17 She girdeth her loins with strength, and strengtheneth her arms.

18 She perceiveth that her merchandise is good: her candle goeth not out by night.

19 She layeth her hands to the spindle, and her hands hold the distaff.

20 She stretcheth out her hand to the poor; yea, she reacheth forth her hands to the needy.

21 She is not afraid of the snow for her household: for all her household are clothed with scarlet.
22 She maketh herself coverings of tapestry; her clothing is silk and purple.

23 Her husband is known in the gates, when he sitteth among the elders of the land.

24 She maketh fine linen, and selleth it; and delivereth girdles unto the merchant.

25 Strength and honour are her clothing; and she shall rejoice in time to come.

26 She openeth her mouth with wisdom; and in her tongue is the law of kindness.

27 She looketh well to the ways of her household, and eateth not the bread of idleness.

28 Her children arise up, and call her blessed; her husband also, and he praiseth her.

29 Many daughters have done virtuously, but thou excellest them all.

30 Favour is deceitful, and beauty is vain: but a woman that feareth the Lord, she shall be praised.

31 Give her of the fruit of her hands; and let her own works praise her in the gates.

“Ditat Deus”

Since: Jul 12

Location hidden

#149844 Jan 24, 2013
Aura Mytha wrote:
<quoted text> People like me look at at a rock and ask, how much?
People like me look at at a rock and ask, "Can I drive over it?"

“Ditat Deus”

Since: Jul 12

Location hidden

#149845 Jan 24, 2013
christianity is EVIL wrote:
<quoted text>
IF god created ALL
he created your future also,
NO free will
simple indeed
Oh, jeez.....

Really?

“Ditat Deus”

Since: Jul 12

Location hidden

#149846 Jan 24, 2013
madscot wrote:
<quoted text>
It has nothing to do with making choices for you. It has to do with omniscience and freewill.
For any future act you will perform, if some being infallibly believed in the past that the act would occur, there is nothing you can do now about the fact that he believed what he believed since nobody has any control over past events; nor can you make him mistaken in his belief, given that he is infallible. Therefore, there is nothing you can do now about the fact that he believed in a way that cannot be mistaken that you would do what you will do. But if so, you cannot do otherwise than what he believed you would do. And if you cannot do otherwise, you will not perform the act freely.
Yes, but you CAN do otherwise....

“Ditat Deus”

Since: Jul 12

Location hidden

#149847 Jan 24, 2013
TheBlackSheep wrote:
Was it my free will to be born?
Was it my free will to be born in the 1960's?
Was it my free will to be born in Pittsburgh, PA?
Was it my free will to be born into the family that I was?
As a child, was it my free will to attend the church that I did?
As a child, was it my free will to attend the schools that I did?
Was it my free will to have the teachers that I had?
All these things greatly influenced my decisions; yet according to believers, your god arranged all that for me. That is not free will, that is programming.
According to believers, God arranged that? What believers are saying that?

Of course you didn't have free will to be born - your parents had free will to make you & birth you & care for you.

How about you think up some examples outside of your childhood were the choices made for you were chosen by you.

“cdesign proponentsists”

Since: Jul 09

Pittsburgh, PA

#149848 Jan 24, 2013
Thinking wrote:
If you look at the BBC skit in my post above, it actually explains how Judas had little or no free will.
<quoted text>
I did watch it and it was right on the money.

“In the beginning God Created..”

Since: Feb 12

Southern Illinois

#149849 Jan 24, 2013
mtimber wrote:
<quoted text>
My name is Mark by the way, but if you have some deep inner need to call me Derek, than knock yourself out...
:-)
Mark, I turned in this individual to Topix yesterday.

I would love “Givemeliberty” to stay but he/she will have to refrain from being abusive. I would encourage you to do the same if this individual becomes abusive.

“Ditat Deus”

Since: Jul 12

Location hidden

#149850 Jan 24, 2013
Aerobatty wrote:
<quoted text>
Yes you do.
Hell is a myth.
I don't fear myths.
You do.
You can repeat it a thousand times, Aero, but that doesn't make it true.

I don't fear hell.

Since: Jan 13

Location hidden

#149851 Jan 24, 2013
Eagle12 wrote:
<quoted text>
You are insinuating a women taken in captivity and married is a sex slave. I respectfully disagree.“Without any consent” is your words and those words are not in the bible in reference to this subject. A assumption on your part and not factual.
The only way a marriage will work is if both parties willingly agree. And both parties are lovingly bonded.
Genesis 24:48-51, 58-67
Here we find of an example where the wife to be is asked.
So they called Rebekah and asked her,
“Do you wish to go with this man?”
She answered,“I do.”
Here is an example where the woman was asked about marriage.
Genesis 2
“The Lord God said:“It is not good for the man to be alone.”
“I will make a suitable partner for him.”
“That is why a man leaves his father and mother
and clings to his wife, and the two of them become one body.”
Here we have a reference to a partner and a partnership.
Proverbs 31 gives details as to what a wife means.
10 Who can find a virtuous woman? for her price is far above rubies.
11 The heart of her husband doth safely trust in her, so that he shall have no need of spoil.
12 She will do him good and not evil all the days of her life.
13 She seeketh wool, and flax, and worketh willingly with her hands.
14 She is like the merchants' ships; she bringeth her food from afar.
15 She riseth also while it is yet night, and giveth meat to her household, and a portion to her maidens.
16 She considereth a field, and buyeth it: with the fruit of her hands she planteth a vineyard.
17 She girdeth her loins with strength, and strengtheneth her arms.
18 She perceiveth that her merchandise is good: her candle goeth not out by night.
19 She layeth her hands to the spindle, and her hands hold the distaff.
20 She stretcheth out her hand to the poor; yea, she reacheth forth her hands to the needy.
21 She is not afraid of the snow for her household: for all her household are clothed with scarlet.
22 She maketh herself coverings of tapestry; her clothing is silk and purple.
23 Her husband is known in the gates, when he sitteth among the elders of the land.
24 She maketh fine linen, and selleth it; and delivereth girdles unto the merchant.
25 Strength and honour are her clothing; and she shall rejoice in time to come.
26 She openeth her mouth with wisdom; and in her tongue is the law of kindness.
27 She looketh well to the ways of her household, and eateth not the bread of idleness.
28 Her children arise up, and call her blessed; her husband also, and he praiseth her.
29 Many daughters have done virtuously, but thou excellest them all.
30 Favour is deceitful, and beauty is vain: but a woman that feareth the Lord, she shall be praised.
31 Give her of the fruit of her hands; and let her own works praise her in the gates.
Good response, but they won't be interested, their anti-God goggles preclude a rational consideration of the texts.

Since: Sep 08

Location hidden

#149852 Jan 24, 2013
mtimber wrote:
<quoted text>
Its called rationality I believe.:-)
lol :-)
:-)

The typical Topix atheist will challenge you to define rationality. Then they will argue about the definition given in the dictionary, stating flatly they are free to define it for themselves as they see fit. Like the term atheism.

They do that a lot. It helps in their logic development process.

To them such is rational.

Since: Apr 09

Location hidden

#149853 Jan 24, 2013
Givemeliberty wrote:
Can you for once answer a question or is dodging hen all you are able to do?
<quoted text>
Its all he does...

Since: Sep 08

Location hidden

#149854 Jan 24, 2013
Eagle12 wrote:
<quoted text>
Mark, I turned in this individual to Topix yesterday.
I would love “Givemeliberty” to stay but he/she will have to refrain from being abusive. I would encourage you to do the same if this individual becomes abusive.
Eagle!!

Whatever are you doing? He is THE poster child for Topix atheist intellectual development and maturation.

“Think&Care”

Since: Oct 07

Location hidden

#149855 Jan 24, 2013
mtimber wrote:
<quoted text>
Do muons decay?
Yes.
If so, then that implies cause...
Now,*that* is a circular argument. I claim that the decay of a muon is not caused. That is based on observation and theory. You claim otherwise. But you give no demonstration or evidence of its being caused. Essentially, you are assuming every event has a cause. And *that* is a circular argument.
Do you have another example of something that does not have a cause?
Like I said, most quantum level behavior is uncaused.

“cdesign proponentsists”

Since: Jul 09

Pittsburgh, PA

#149856 Jan 24, 2013
Langoliers wrote:
<quoted text>
Was it my free will to be born?
Nope that was your parents free will
Was it my free will to be born in the 1960's?
Nope that was your parents free will
Was it my free will to be born in Pittsburgh, PA?
Nope that was your parents free will
Was it my free will to be born into the family that I was?
Nope that was your parents free will
As a child, was it my free will to attend the church that I did?
Nope, in this country you're not given that kind of free will until you reach the age of 18.(You didn't this?)
As a child, was it my free will to attend the schools that I did?
Nope that was your parents free will
Was it my free will to have the teachers that I had?
Nope that was your schools district free will to hire who they wanted.
If you were not an idiot troll, I would thank you for proving my point.

My parents did not choose me, they chose to procreate.

Unless my parents create souls, it was not their free will to make me.

“Think&Care”

Since: Oct 07

Location hidden

#149857 Jan 24, 2013
mtimber wrote:
<quoted text>
You are right, but your first premise was faulty...
Which should have been my point.
I stand corrected.
OK, good. We are making progress.

Now, I had previously shown that there was no life at some point in the past. I note that there is life now.

Take the *earliest* life. Either it was uncaused, or it had a cause. I discount the first possibility because life is not a quantum level phenomenon (although you might be able to argue this point---it would give another example of an uncaused event, though).

So this earliest life had a cause. That cause had to be previous to the earliest life. That means the cause could not be alive (if it were, we would have a contradiction to the *earliest* aspect). In other words, the earliest life had a non-life cause.

There are a couple of ways out of this dilemma for you:

1. Claim that the earliest life did not have a cause.

2. Claim that there was no earliest life, so life has always existed.

The first destroys your 'first cause' claim and the second is contradicted by the conditions of the early universe.

“Think&Care”

Since: Oct 07

Location hidden

#149858 Jan 24, 2013
mtimber wrote:
<quoted text>
Do muons decay?
If so, then that implies cause...
This is part of why I asked you for the definition of the term 'cause'. By all the definitions I have seen for that concept, the decay of a muon has no cause. Perhaps you have a different definition than usual, so I am awaiting your definition of the concept.

“In the beginning God Created..”

Since: Feb 12

Southern Illinois

#149859 Jan 24, 2013
mtimber wrote:
<quoted text>
Good response, but they won't be interested, their anti-God goggles preclude a rational consideration of the texts.
Thank you.

I realize it’s hopeless but it’s just down right fun to prove them wrong.

Of course there’s always a chance someone reading that’s on the fence may be persuaded.

“In the beginning God Created..”

Since: Feb 12

Southern Illinois

#149860 Jan 24, 2013
TheBlackSheep wrote:
<quoted text>
If you were not an idiot troll, I would thank you for proving my point.
My parents did not choose me, they chose to procreate.
Unless my parents create souls, it was not their free will to make me.
Accidents do happen.

Since: Dec 11

Location hidden

#149861 Jan 24, 2013
Eagle12 wrote:
<quoted text>
You are insinuating a women taken in captivity and married is a sex slave. I respectfully disagree.“Without any consent” is your words and those words are not in the bible in reference to this subject. A assumption on your part and not factual.
The woman is a CAPTIVE. There is no assumption needed that the process is non-consensual. "You killed my husband/father/brothers and took me as a prisoner...I'd love to marry you!"

The law even provides an instant divorce allowed if the woman does not sufficiently PLEASE him. "If you are not pleased with her, let her go wherever she wishes. You must not sell her or treat her as a slave, since you have dishonored her."

If this was a consensual marriage, then why would she be considered dishonored?

This is consistent with other laws like Deut 22:28, where a man's punishment for rape is that he must marry his victim. Do you believe a woman would really want to marry her rapist and continue to have conjugal relations with him?

Or Exodus 21:7, where fathers may sell their daughters as wives (again, no consent involved).
Eagle12 wrote:
Here we find of an example where the wife to be is asked.
Having an example where the woman is asked does not nullify the examples where the women are clearly not asked.

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