Atheism requires as much faith as religion?

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Atheism requires as much faith as religion? bearvspuma : The only problem with this rationalization is that ita s assuming all athiests are so because theya re intelligent in the ways of science and reasoning and all people that believe in a form of god are unintelligent.
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“Think&Care”

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#149734
Jan 24, 2013
 
polymath257 wrote:
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Two possible interpretations:
Sorry, three--I rewrote parts of this and didn't fix the beginning.

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#149735
Jan 24, 2013
 

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polymath257 wrote:
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What, exactly, do you mean by this question? It is ambiguous.
Two possible interpretations:
1. Do you know the precise way that non-living things became living?
The answer to this is no. The evidence is not in and we have to wait for that evidence before forming a conclusion.
2. Is there anything self-contradictory about non-life producing life?
The answer to this is also no. Life is a complex collection of chemical reactions. NONE of the chemicals in a living thing are, themselves, alive. So non-life does, in fact, produce life.
3. Is there a reasonable path from non-life to life that can be outlined (even if the details are not known)?
The answer here is yes. And *this* is the subject of the study of abiogenesis. All that needs to happen is that the basic chemicals (which are known to have existed on the early earth) polymerize (a common process) and form a cyclic, stable, reproducing system.
1. So in this instance you cannot comprehend something as a fact, but only as a transcendent possibility.
2. Logical fallacy of equivocation.
3. No, there is no reasonable path for abiogenesis, if there was then it would have been reproduced.
Pat

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#149736
Jan 24, 2013
 
mtimber wrote:
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I understand your argument.
I disagree with you, therefore I am wrong.
But like I keep asking you:
Do you have a rational argument to present?
You disagree not with me but with the world for even most theists will admit that a belief in god requires faith because there is no evidence for any god.

The existence of god is not a matter of fact, its a matter of faith and you stomping your feet in denial does not change that fact.

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#149737
Jan 24, 2013
 
polymath257 wrote:
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Their parents? Do you really need some instruction on basic biology? Or are you again attempting the 'first cause' argument?
Of course I am arguing the first cause argument.

In the beginning God...

I have never deviated from that.
Pat

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#149738
Jan 24, 2013
 
mtimber wrote:
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Arbitrary appeal to your own authority.
Do you have a rational argument to present?
Arbitrary appeal to your own authority.

Do you have a rational argument to present?

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#149739
Jan 24, 2013
 
polymath257 wrote:
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By definition, if something is caused, it has a cause. Now, make an argument that everything is caused. You might want to define exactly what it means to be 'caused'.
You agree with it, then ask me to justify what you agree with?
Pat

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#149740
Jan 24, 2013
 
mtimber wrote:
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Really?
Upon what basis as an atheist, do you account for absolute moral laws like good and evil?
There are no absolute moral laws. If you were a cow, eating beef would be a sin and the killing of humans irrelevant to you, comprende? You have big ego/small brain syndrome.

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#149741
Jan 24, 2013
 

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polymath257 wrote:
Assuming that life was caused... then the second case requires it to be caused by non-life.
Now it does not get any more circular than that.

1. If life was caused, it must have been by non-life.
2. Life was caused.
3. Therefore non-life caused it.

You don't see a problem with this argument?

And you want me to accept this as a logical argument?
Pat

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#149742
Jan 24, 2013
 
mtimber wrote:
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1. Everything we observe in the universe has a cause, therefore everything has a cause.
It really is not that hard, basic empirical observation and science itself rests on this most basic of processes.
2. I am admittedly quite confused by your argument and not at all clear on where you stand.
Do you think the law of non-contradiction applies universally?
I am talking of the 1st law of logic here.
Everything has a cause? That is an argument from ignorance based upon your blind assumptions because you are determined to beleive in a creator so you can then believe you won't really die when you die. You theists really are simple creatures to read.

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#149743
Jan 24, 2013
 
^^Your first premise was wrong by the way...

And to correct myself.

This was a valid argument, but its premise was flawed, therefore it was unsound...
Pat

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#149744
Jan 24, 2013
 
mtimber wrote:
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1. So in this instance you cannot comprehend something as a fact, but only as a transcendent possibility.
2. Logical fallacy of equivocation.
3. No, there is no reasonable path for abiogenesis, if there was then it would have been reproduced.
One more irrational argument from ignorance based not upon knowledge but rather your lack of it. God is your dunce cap, nothing more.

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#149745
Jan 24, 2013
 
Pat wrote:
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You disagree not with me but with the world for even most theists will admit that a belief in god requires faith because there is no evidence for any god.
The existence of god is not a matter of fact, its a matter of faith and you stomping your feet in denial does not change that fact.
You are still doing it, arguing from your own authority and from arbitrary prejudiced claims.

There are very few theists that will say there is no proof for God.

I think you need to reign your assertions in a little...

“Think&Care”

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#149746
Jan 24, 2013
 
mtimber wrote:
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1. So in this instance you cannot comprehend something as a fact, but only as a transcendent possibility.
You seem to be using language in a very different way than I do. You seem to be saying that I cannot 'comprehend something as a fact' unless I know all the details? That seems a very strange proposition to me. For example, I can comprehend that the Higg's particle exists as a fact without knowing all the details.
2. Logical fallacy of equivocation.
Please be more specific.
3. No, there is no reasonable path for abiogenesis, if there was then it would have been reproduced.
False. Just because we can see a reasonable path does not mean we can reproduce it.

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#149747
Jan 24, 2013
 
Pat wrote:
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You disagree not with me but with the world for even most theists will admit that a belief in god requires faith because there is no evidence for any god.
The existence of god is not a matter of fact, its a matter of faith and you stomping your feet in denial does not change that fact.
But yes, I do understand you believe you represent the world, and it is in full agreement with you.

I just don't accept you are the ultimate standard of truth.
Pat

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#149748
Jan 24, 2013
 
Dave Nelson wrote:
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There is no difference between your fear of death and any theist. You just rationalize it differently.
You have a stoical approach now, but when the time comes and a reality sets in, it will be shaken.
Theists have a focus to ease that transition. You will have nowhere to go,
It's a large universe. Imagine yourself waking up in in an out of the way spot in it, say like an asteroid, not knowing where to go, or what lies out there.
Your consciousness will not cease to be. Your memories and way you think now will, but your "being" won't.
Look at a mirror. You see yourself existing. What lies beyond the mirror?
One can not experience anyting if they have no working senses to gather the information or a working brain to process that information. You too will experience eternal death and dishonestly clinging to death denying fairytales can not save you. A corpse is not very confusing. Do you also believe if you smash a bottle against a wall it still exists intact, off somewhere else? That's how silly your life after death nonsense is.

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#149749
Jan 24, 2013
 
Pat wrote:
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There are no absolute moral laws. If you were a cow, eating beef would be a sin and the killing of humans irrelevant to you, comprende? You have big ego/small brain syndrome.
There are no absolute moral laws?

So why are you appealing to emotionally laden appeals to your own standard of moral supremacy, which judges another as having a big ego and small brain?

If there are no absolute moral laws, why are you arguing that I am "morally wrong" about anything?

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#149750
Jan 24, 2013
 
Pat wrote:
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Everything has a cause? That is an argument from ignorance based upon your blind assumptions because you are determined to beleive in a creator so you can then believe you won't really die when you die. You theists really are simple creatures to read.
Was your post spontaneous or did you cause it to be posted on the internet?

“Think&Care”

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#149751
Jan 24, 2013
 
mtimber wrote:
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You agree with it, then ask me to justify what you agree with?
Read exactly what I wrote again.

To be 'caused' means that there is a cause. So to be caused requires there to be a cause.

I could argue similarly as follows: To be glypted means there is a glypt. So anything that is glypted has a glypt.

What I asked you to do is show that everything is caused. In other words, show that everything does, in fact, have a cause. In order to do this (as opposed to the triviality above), you should probably define what it means to be a cause and then show that everything does have a cause.

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#149752
Jan 24, 2013
 
Pat wrote:
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One more irrational argument from ignorance based not upon knowledge but rather your lack of it. God is your dunce cap, nothing more.
Arbitrary appeal to your own authority.

Do you have a rational argument to present?
Pat

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#149753
Jan 24, 2013
 
mtimber wrote:
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Yes I do have a rational basis.
That which was caused needs a cause...
Do you deny that obvious truth?
Then what caused your god? He clearly must need a cause then too, no?

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