Atheism requires as much faith as religion?

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Atheism requires as much faith as religion? bearvspuma : The only problem with this rationalization is that ita s assuming all athiests are so because theya re intelligent in the ways of science and reasoning and all people that believe in a form of god are unintelligent.

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“Think&Care”

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#149674
Jan 24, 2013
 
mtimber wrote:
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If God was outside of time and space, as He created it, then He would have to reveal that fact in some form.
To do this, He has shown, through prophecy, that this is the case.
It is a logical conclusion.
1. To prove God is eternal, He has to show knowledge that He operates outside the bounds of time.
2. God reveals the future through prophecy, operating outside of time.
3. God proves He is eternal.
Second Part:
1. The universe had a start, a first cause that was not of the universe.
2. That first cause has to show that it is outside of time.
3. God has shown He is outside of term and therefore the first cause.
This last step does not follow, even if you accept all the rest of the steps. You are making an assumption that there is only *one* thing that is 'outside of time'. But you have not demonstrated that.
Plenty of evidence that God is the Creator, using very simple logic.
God presents His own argument here:
Isa 42:8 I [am] the LORD: that [is] my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.
Isa 42:9 Behold, the former things are come to pass, and new things do I declare: before they spring forth I tell you of them.
That isn't evidence. That is a quote from an old book that was written to control the ignorant.

“ The Lord of delirious minds.”

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#149675
Jan 24, 2013
 

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mtimber wrote:
<quoted text>
If God was outside of time and space, as He created it, then He would have to reveal that fact in some form.
To do this, He has shown, through prophecy, that this is the case.
It is a logical conclusion.
1. To prove God is eternal, He has to show knowledge that He operates outside the bounds of time.
2. God reveals the future through prophecy, operating outside of time.
3. God proves He is eternal.
Second Part:
1. The universe had a start, a first cause that was not of the universe.
2. That first cause has to show that it is outside of time.
3. God has shown He is outside of term and therefore the first cause.
Plenty of evidence that God is the Creator, using very simple logic.
God presents His own argument here:
Isa 42:8 I [am] the LORD: that [is] my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.
Isa 42:9 Behold, the former things are come to pass, and new things do I declare: before they spring forth I tell you of them.

Sorry circular reasoning and psychological evidence, are not tangible or even demonstrable. They only exist in a fallacious
way.

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#149676
Jan 24, 2013
 

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Aura Mytha wrote:
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What you try to do is make illogical, logical.
It doesn't work.
Arbitrary appeal to your own authority.

Do you have a rational argument to present?

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#149677
Jan 24, 2013
 

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polymath257 wrote:
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That is a claim I have seen many times, but I have never seen it actually supported.
It is a philosophical argument.

You don't accept philosophy as a valid practice.

So you won't understand the argument anyway...

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#149678
Jan 24, 2013
 
Aura Mytha wrote:
Yes there was a point where there was no potential difference existed between matter/energy/space/time.
Do you have the empirical data from the observations you made whilst you were there watching all this unfold?

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#149679
Jan 24, 2013
 
polymath257 wrote:
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That is not a *definition* of the term 'cause'. It is an example of the term in usage. So, we agree that by any reasonable definition, I caused this post. Am I the only cause?
Nope.

God caused you.

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#149680
Jan 24, 2013
 
Adam wrote:
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For those stateside, just wish to point out, people from Lincoln are generally inbred and arrogant :D Inbreeding is rife there. Its like a religion :D
I am sure everyone in Lincoln will be warmed by your atheistic empathy for them...

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#149681
Jan 24, 2013
 
Adam wrote:
Just to clarify I mean mtimber is from Lincoln, inbreeding capital of the UK :D
Am I?

Wow, must have moved cities in my sleep...

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#149682
Jan 24, 2013
 
polymath257 wrote:
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It is a concept that humans made up to mean 'for all time'. it was then distorted by the religious apologists to be independent of time, thereby negating its meaning.
So how do you account for the concept that many have that there was state where there was no time?

Your reduction to absurdity is incredible to watch...

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#149683
Jan 24, 2013
 
Aura Mytha wrote:
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Sorry circular reasoning and psychological evidence, are not tangible or even demonstrable. They only exist in a fallacious
way.
Arbitrary appeal to your own authority.

Do you have a rational argument to present?

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#149684
Jan 24, 2013
 
Free will is just the ability to take a course of action based upon emotion instead of training and experience. Taking risks one doesn't have to. The soul's desires to experience versus the conscious mind's "knowing" cause and effect.
Pat

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#149685
Jan 24, 2013
 
Eagle12 wrote:
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You fit the MO (Modus Operandi) of a militant atheist. Thank you for taking your time to share your views. Mind you not all atheist fall into this category.
The definition of a Militant Atheist.
-A imperfect being who he/she believes is perfect who doesn’t believe in god, a self appointed judge of Christians, a hypocrite, a hypocritical judge, a Narcissist, he who practices narcissism, one who practices cowardice, one who engages in oppression, one openly practices bigotry, justifies bigotry by self conduct, one who is egotistical, an egotist, a egotistical maniac, vain, self conceded, distorter of truth, a dumb as* who thinks he/she is a genius, self denial, hater of religion, fears death, a distorter of facts and truth, a unbeliever, a cocky self serving unbeliever.
A unbeliever who practices rudeness to believers, a blamer of Christianity, a self justifier of rudeness, a person who denies imperfection, non supporter of benevolence, one who is proudly arrogant, one who believes atheism is a cult force, one who believes atheist is a higher order of humanity, defines the word a**hole, one who has few friends, one who believes in the occult and practices atheism, one who fails to heed, one who is deaf and dumb by choice, pugnacious, aggressive, contentious, irritable, belligerent, combative, petulant, antagonistic, argumentative, bellicose, irascible, quarrelsome, hot-tempered, choleric, disputatious, he who denies all of the above or part thereof.
Stop projecting your flawed logic and inflated ego onto me you dishonest fool. I simply call it as I see it. Faith itself is dishonest for no man knows of any gods and any one who makes an assertion without out knowing if the assertion is true is guilty of falsehood. Every god hustler is a liar and also a coward who refuses to face their own mortality honestly. It's not about god and never has been, it's about your refusal to face death honestly. It is no coincidence that all theists are death deniers. You deny the overwhelming proof that death ends personal memory and awareness for we know for a fact that awareness is brain function, not a ghost.
Pat

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#149686
Jan 24, 2013
 
Eagle12 wrote:
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Prepared off the shelf response we have heard a million times.
Yes, and factually true for there is no knowledge of any gods for if there were, the existence of god would be a matter of fact not a matter of faith you morally challenged bozo.
Pat

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#149687
Jan 24, 2013
 
Eagle12 wrote:
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Everyone who believes in God is dishonest is that so?
And you are honest and a perfect example of honesty?
Everyone who claims there is a god is indeed dishonest. If you admit there is no knowledge of god but you choose to beleive in god anyway then you are not being dishonest, then you are simply a death denier clinging to death denying mythology.
Pat

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#149688
Jan 24, 2013
 
Eagle12 wrote:
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Nice quote, however history tells us that Abraham Lincoln believed in God and God was mentioned in several of his speeches. There’s plenty written about the 16th President to verify that fact.
Wiki:
Abraham Lincoln's religious beliefs are a matter of debate. Lincoln grew up in a highly religious family, but never joined any church. As a young man he was a skeptic. He frequently referenced God and quoted the Bible; he accompanied his wife and children to Protestant services, and after the deaths of two children became more intensely concerned with God's plan for mankind. He was private about his beliefs and respected the beliefs of others. Lincoln never made a clear profession of standard Christian beliefs; he did believe in an all-powerful God that shaped events and, by 1865, was expressing those beliefs in major speeches.
Based upon the quote I provided by Lincoln he felt every preacher was a lair making claims with no knowledge that the claims were true. All politicians reference god, especially in the 19th century. They do this for support from all the ignorant simple minded biased peasants who believe in god. However the original draft of the Gettysburg Address does not mention god. Dishonest christian historians added it later. Typical.

“Think&Care”

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#149689
Jan 24, 2013
 
mtimber wrote:
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Nope.
God caused you.
No, my parents having sex caused me (at least that is the primary cause).

“Think&Care”

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#149690
Jan 24, 2013
 
mtimber wrote:
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So how do you account for the concept that many have that there was state where there was no time?
They took the idea of 'having time' and negated it? Whether this concept actually applies to the real world is another matter.
Pat

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#149691
Jan 24, 2013
 
Serah wrote:
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***n 1862 and 1863, during the most difficult days of the Civil War and his presidency, Lincoln's utterances were sometimes marked with spiritual overtones.
1862: Bereavement and Emancipation
On Thursday, February 20, 1862, at 5:00 P.M. Lincoln's eleven year old son, William Wallace Lincoln (Willie), died in the White House. Historians suggest that this may have been the most difficult personal crisis in his life. After the funeral, Lincoln attempted a return to his routine, but he was unable. One week after the funeral, he isolated himself in his office and wept all day. Several people report that Lincoln told them that his feelings about religion changed at this time. Willie is reported to have often remarked that he wanted to be a minister someday.[19] When he died, Lincoln reportedly said, "May God live in all. He was too good for this earth. The good Lord has called him home. I know that he is much better off in Heaven."[20][21]
Spiritualism, popularly in vogue during this era, was tried by Lincoln's wife. Mrs. Lincoln used the services of mediums and spiritualists to try to contact their dead son. Lincoln allegedly attended at least one seance at the White House with Mrs. Lincoln at this time.[22]
At the same time, the War was not going well for the Union. General George McClellan's failure in the Peninsula Campaign came about within months after Willie's death. Next came Robert E. Lee's impressive victory at the Second Battle of Bull Run, after which he said, "I have been driven many times upon my knees by the overwhelming conviction that I had nowhere else to go."[23][24]
According to Salmon Chase, as he was preparing to issue the preliminary Emancipation Proclamation, Lincoln said, "I made a solemn vow before God, that if General Lee was driven back from Maryland I would crown the result by the declaration of freedom to the slaves."[25] The differences in interpretation of the President's statement can be due to the belief that "swearing or vowing" to God was blasphemous to some religious sects.
At the same time, Lincoln sat down in his office and penned the following words:
The will of God prevails. In great contests each party claims to act in accordance with the will of God. Both may be, and one must be, wrong. God cannot be for and against the same thing at the same time. In the present civil war it is quite possible that God's purpose is something different from the purpose of either party -- and yet the human instrumentalities, working just as they do, are of the best adaptation to effect His purpose. I am almost ready to say that this is probably true -- that God wills this contest, and wills that it shall not end yet. By his mere great power, on the minds of the now contestants, He could have either saved or destroyed the Union without a human contest. Yet the contest began. And, having begun He could give the final victory to either side any day. Yet the contest proceeds.[26]***
Abraham Lincoln certainly showed good sense in his logic!!:)
So he pandered to the god fearing peasants like a typical politician that needs support and votes. It does not change the fact that every god hustler is still a liar making claims they do not know to be true, no different than me claiming to have won the lottery prior to the drawing taking place and me accidentally winning the lottery does not excuse me from my lie.

“Think&Care”

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#149692
Jan 24, 2013
 

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mtimber wrote:
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It is a philosophical argument.
You don't accept philosophy as a valid practice.
I have stated that most philosophers don't do it correctly. I am skeptical that any can.
So you won't understand the argument anyway...
Try me. I have understood much more complicated and intricate arguments than you ever will.
Pat

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#149693
Jan 24, 2013
 
TheBlackSheep wrote:
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Was it my free will to be born?
Was it my free will to be born in the 1960's?
Was it my free will to be born in Pittsburgh, PA?
Was it my free will to be born into the family that I was?
As a child, was it my free will to attend the church that I did?
As a child, was it my free will to attend the schools that I did?
Was it my free will to have the teachers that I had?
All these things greatly influenced my decisions; yet according to believers, your god arranged all that for me. That is not free will, that is programming.
Funny how god ALWAYS values the free will of the child rapist/murderer over the free will of their young innocent victims. How sweet.

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