Atheism requires as much faith as religion?

Atheism requires as much faith as religion? bearvspuma : The only problem with this rationalization is that ita s assuming all athiests are so because theya re intelligent in the ways of science and reasoning and all people that believe in a form of god are unintelligent. Full Story

“Think&Care”

Since: Oct 07

Location hidden

#149585 Jan 23, 2013
mtimber wrote:
<quoted text>
How does a potter create a pot, which is so unlike it?
How does a human create a car, which is so like it?
The object bears the imprint of the creator but is not equal to the creator.
The universe bears the imprint or God, but is not the same as God.
Yes, we all know that is your mythology. Any actual evidence for this position? Didn't think so.

“Think&Care”

Since: Oct 07

Location hidden

#149586 Jan 23, 2013
mtimber wrote:
<quoted text>
You are placing God in His material universe and trying to apply the restrictions of that universe to Him.
That is a bit like putting a car designer in a car, then telling him to forget he is a driver and to act like a car...
And you essentially try to define away any problems by saying 'God is perfect so objections don't apply'.

You have given no reason to believe in a 'first cause'. Even if there was a 'first cause', you have given no reason to think that 'first cause' was an intelligence. Even if there was an intelligent first cause, you have given no reason to think that it was good. Even if that intelligent first cause was good, you have given no reason to think it is in any way related to Christianity.

You are attempting to justify an idea using the conclusions so far down the road that calling it a circular argument seems silly. It isn't an argument at all.

Since: Nov 12

Location hidden

#149587 Jan 23, 2013
mtimber wrote:
<quoted text>
By the way, I have been enjoying your reasoned posts.
A refreshing change to the general tide of vitriol from the majority of atheists on here.
Long may it continue.
I feel the same. The name calling gets annoying. For the last 300 posts i have mainly been reading your posts and the responses to your posts.

“Think&Care”

Since: Oct 07

Location hidden

#149588 Jan 23, 2013
mtimber wrote:
<quoted text>
No, I am pointing you to an inescapable logical conclusion.
If you use reason and logic you will come to the same place, but if you surrender reason and logic, you will not be able to arrive at the logical conclusion.
Everything in this universe had a cause, what was that cause?
I deny the premise. In fact, we know many things in this universe that do not have causes. For example, the timing of a nuclear decay.
What caused matter, energy, time, life, reasoning, logic and morality to appear?
Matter and energy may or may not have a cause. If they do, it would most likely be considered to be part of a previous universe or multiverse. Life is 'caused' by chemistry. In fact, it *is* a complex collection of chemical reactions. Reasoning is 'caused' by information processing devices that have mostly evolved and reside inside of skulls. Those devices are called brains. Logic and morality are human concepts that help humans deal with each other and the world around them.
Consider what the first cause would have to be like and the conclusion is quite logical.
A quantum fluctuation?
You can of course deny those things were caused, but that is quite a rabbit hole to explore...
I think the whole concept of causality as applied to the universe as a whole is nonsensical (include the whole multiverse here if necessary).

Let's do it this way. Define the concept of causality. What does it mean when we say that one thing causes another? Using your definition, prove that everything has a cause.
Pat

Granby, CT

#149589 Jan 23, 2013
mtimber wrote:
<quoted text>
So if you are not sure how life began and you cannot comprehend it, then by your own admission, you cannot accept that it did happen.
Remember, your standard is that you must be able to comprehend something for it to be true, would you like to retract that?
We know life exists you bozo. Put down your crack pipe for a little while, I think you have had enough.

"Remember, your standard is that you must be able to comprehend something for it to be true"

No, that's your line of bs not mine. If I am open to how life began since we do not know, what "has to be true"?

Since: Sep 08

Westcliffe, CO

#149590 Jan 23, 2013
Aura Mytha wrote:
<quoted text> Hey if you alone on that island long enough she will come around huh? heheheh
If she wasn't a big bull dyke.
Pat

Granby, CT

#149591 Jan 23, 2013
mtimber wrote:
<quoted text>
No, I am pointing you to an inescapable logical conclusion.
If you use reason and logic you will come to the same place, but if you surrender reason and logic, you will not be able to arrive at the logical conclusion.
Everything in this universe had a cause, what was that cause?
What caused matter, energy, time, life, reasoning, logic and morality to appear?
Consider what the first cause would have to be like and the conclusion is quite logical.
You can of course deny those things were caused, but that is quite a rabbit hole to explore...
Yours is an argument from ignorance not logic.
Pat

Granby, CT

#149592 Jan 23, 2013
mtimber wrote:
<quoted text>
No, I am pointing you to an inescapable logical conclusion.
If you use reason and logic you will come to the same place, but if you surrender reason and logic, you will not be able to arrive at the logical conclusion.
Everything in this universe had a cause, what was that cause?
What caused matter, energy, time, life, reasoning, logic and morality to appear?
Consider what the first cause would have to be like and the conclusion is quite logical.
You can of course deny those things were caused, but that is quite a rabbit hole to explore...
Honest people say "I don't know" to things not known, dishonest people say god.
Pat

Granby, CT

#149593 Jan 23, 2013
mtimber wrote:
<quoted text>
People like you look at a rock and see there is evidence for no God.
I hope you understand the use of arbitrary claims is self defeating?
You claim a god then you prove a god or accept you are a liar.

It is an established maxim and moral that he who makes an assertion without knowing whether it is true or false is guilty of falsehood, and the accidental truth of the assertion does not justify or excuse him.
-- Abraham Lincoln
Pat

Granby, CT

#149594 Jan 23, 2013
mtimber wrote:
<quoted text>
Who said the universe is entirely unlike God?
Gods nature is reflected in His universe.
That is a false premise you have stated.
You know of no god let alone what he has or has not created. You are a dishonest theist, a bs artist no different from a person claiming there are aliens on Pluto with no knowledge to back it up.
Pat

Granby, CT

#149595 Jan 23, 2013
mtimber wrote:
<quoted text>
Okay, first explain how you get the concept of evil without God?
Because until you can do that, your question cannot really be answered.
Based on human wants and needs. Good = good for people. Evil = bad for people.

“God of War”

Since: Dec 10

Location hidden

#149596 Jan 23, 2013
Dave Nelson wrote:
<quoted text>
If she wasn't a big bull dyke.
HA HA HA! in that case Ill be camping out over on the other side the island with Wilson!

“In the beginning God Created..”

Since: Feb 12

Southern Illinois

#149597 Jan 23, 2013
Pat wrote:
<quoted text>
You know of no god let alone what he has or has not created. You are a dishonest theist, a bs artist no different from a person claiming there are aliens on Pluto with no knowledge to back it up.
You fit the MO (Modus Operandi) of a militant atheist. Thank you for taking your time to share your views. Mind you not all atheist fall into this category.

The definition of a Militant Atheist.

-A imperfect being who he/she believes is perfect who doesnt believe in god, a self appointed judge of Christians, a hypocrite, a hypocritical judge, a Narcissist, he who practices narcissism, one who practices cowardice, one who engages in oppression, one openly practices bigotry, justifies bigotry by self conduct, one who is egotistical, an egotist, a egotistical maniac, vain, self conceded, distorter of truth, a dumb as* who thinks he/she is a genius, self denial, hater of religion, fears death, a distorter of facts and truth, a unbeliever, a cocky self serving unbeliever.

A unbeliever who practices rudeness to believers, a blamer of Christianity, a self justifier of rudeness, a person who denies imperfection, non supporter of benevolence, one who is proudly arrogant, one who believes atheism is a cult force, one who believes atheist is a higher order of humanity, defines the word a**hole, one who has few friends, one who believes in the occult and practices atheism, one who fails to heed, one who is deaf and dumb by choice, pugnacious, aggressive, contentious, irritable, belligerent, combative, petulant, antagonistic, argumentative, bellicose, irascible, quarrelsome, hot-tempered, choleric, disputatious, he who denies all of the above or part thereof.

“Ditat Deus”

Since: Jul 12

Location hidden

#149598 Jan 23, 2013
Aura Mytha wrote:
<quoted text> People like you look at a rock and see it as evidence there is a god. "sigh"
People like you look at a rock and say "I'll bet that could come alive."

ugh

Since: Sep 08

Westcliffe, CO

#149599 Jan 23, 2013
Pat wrote:
<quoted text>
Based on human wants and needs. Good = good for people. Evil = bad for people.
Good and bad according to whom?

Since: Aug 11

Location hidden

#149600 Jan 23, 2013
Langoliers wrote:
<quoted text>
"God has given us the freedom to make choices
April 08, 2011|Bob Lind | Saturday Sermon
One of the stories in the Bible that has always fascinated me is the account of the conversation between Jesus and the man who has become known as the rich young ruler. The account is recorded in three of the books of the Bible. You can read it in Matthew 19:16-30, Mark 10:17-31 and Luke 18:18-30.
There has been great dispute over the meaning of this incident, especially when Jesus said,“... a rich man shall hardly enter into the Kingdom of heaven.” And again,“I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the Kingdom of God.” We will talk about these things later. But this is not what attracted me to this passage. The most surprising and revealing thing in this incident is not what Jesus did and said, but what he did not do.
Look at the story again. What did Jesus say to the young man when he sadly turned and walked away from Jesus? He was unwilling to pay the price Jesus asked. The most revealing thing to me is that Jesus said nothing. When the man rejected Jesus’ terms, Jesus did not coax, bargain, preach or shout threats at him.
Jesus simply watched the man walk away. Then he went about his business with his disciples. There is a lesson here for us.
Jesus knew God had set before this young man a course of conduct. He not only could choose, he had to choose. Then, he had to live with the consequences of his choice. He had alternatives.
Each alternative had consequences. God does not say to us,“You must choose this one.” Rather, he says,“Choose this one and such and such will happen.” But he leaves the choice with us. We are free to choose. The only thing he requires is that once we walk through the door of one of the alternatives, we must be prepared to live with the consequences.
God gives us choices. Then he gives us the absolute free choice of which path we will take. He doesn’t present these choices with malice, but out of his sincere desire to make it possible for us to live as true people of God. Many don’t understand this freedom God gives us. The thing God understands and we don’t is that we have no freedom unless we are free to choose.
If you put a child in a room with a jar of candy and tell him not to touch the jar, the child has a choice. If instead we lock that jar in a cabinet and tell the child not to touch it, the child has no choice.
This is the way it is with God and us. If God removed from us all bad choices, we would have no freedom at all. We would not be individuals striving to find a better way. We would be nothing but robots. If we are not given a choice, we have no freedom to choose. God created us to be free.
God gives us choices and the consequence of each one. He has given us the perfect freedom to choose. The rest is up to us."
What a crock.

So, when Jesus told his disciple Peter that he would deny him three times by the time the cock crew, what was that, free will, prophecy, or a "divine decree"?

“Ditat Deus”

Since: Jul 12

Location hidden

#149601 Jan 23, 2013
wilderide wrote:
<quoted text>
That's a nice homily, but it entirely misses the point.
If the future is knowable, then fate exists. If fate exists, then free will is impossible. Thus, if God knows everyone's fate, then free will is impossible. Simple as that.
Just because God knows what choices you will make doesn't mean He makes those choices for you.

Simple as that.

Since: Sep 08

Westcliffe, CO

#149602 Jan 23, 2013
Aura Mytha wrote:
<quoted text>HA HA HA! in that case Ill be camping out over on the other side the island with Wilson!
Just hope she doesn't come over there with a club with the intent of making you her woman.

“Ditat Deus”

Since: Jul 12

Location hidden

#149603 Jan 23, 2013
Pat wrote:
<quoted text>
Yours is an argument from ignorance not logic.
He asked "What caused matter, energy, time, life, reasoning, logic and morality to appear?"

You don't see that as a logical question?

“In the beginning God Created..”

Since: Feb 12

Southern Illinois

#149604 Jan 23, 2013
Pat wrote:
<quoted text>
Yours is an argument from ignorance not logic.
Prepared off the shelf response we have heard a million times.

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