Atheism requires as much faith as religion?

Atheism requires as much faith as religion? bearvspuma : The only problem with this rationalization is that ita s assuming all athiests are so because theya re intelligent in the ways of science and reasoning and all people that believe in a form of god are unintelligent. Full Story

“Credulity is not a virtue”

Since: Apr 09

San Francisco

#149565 Jan 23, 2013
Aura Mytha wrote:
<quoted text> People like you look at a rock and see it as evidence there is a god. "sigh"
"Just look around you! God is everywhere"!

When in fact it's not God, but Quetzalcoatl. I mean seriously, how clueless.

Since: Jan 13

Location hidden

#149566 Jan 23, 2013
Aura Mytha wrote:
<quoted text>

BTW it's never ok to take advantage or force yourself on anyone who doesn't want it.
I agree.

But the logical conclusion of subjective morality, is that when expediency rears its ugly head, rape is an option because it is not absolute wrong...

Since: Jan 13

Location hidden

#149567 Jan 23, 2013
Tide with Beach wrote:
<quoted text>
Who says a rock did anything?
Who are you arguing with about rocks?
The theory of abiogenesis states that life came from non-life.

The simplistic analogy is:

arockdidit

But I think you understand the point already...

Since: Apr 12

Location hidden

#149568 Jan 23, 2013
wilderide wrote:
<quoted text>If God is omnipotent, then God is in total control. now?
"God has given us the freedom to make choices
April 08, 2011|Bob Lind | Saturday Sermon

One of the stories in the Bible that has always fascinated me is the account of the conversation between Jesus and the man who has become known as the rich young ruler. The account is recorded in three of the books of the Bible. You can read it in Matthew 19:16-30, Mark 10:17-31 and Luke 18:18-30.

There has been great dispute over the meaning of this incident, especially when Jesus said,“... a rich man shall hardly enter into the Kingdom of heaven.” And again,“I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the Kingdom of God.” We will talk about these things later. But this is not what attracted me to this passage. The most surprising and revealing thing in this incident is not what Jesus did and said, but what he did not do.

Look at the story again. What did Jesus say to the young man when he sadly turned and walked away from Jesus? He was unwilling to pay the price Jesus asked. The most revealing thing to me is that Jesus said nothing. When the man rejected Jesus’ terms, Jesus did not coax, bargain, preach or shout threats at him.

Jesus simply watched the man walk away. Then he went about his business with his disciples. There is a lesson here for us.

Jesus knew God had set before this young man a course of conduct. He not only could choose, he had to choose. Then, he had to live with the consequences of his choice. He had alternatives.

Each alternative had consequences. God does not say to us,“You must choose this one.” Rather, he says,“Choose this one and such and such will happen.” But he leaves the choice with us. We are free to choose. The only thing he requires is that once we walk through the door of one of the alternatives, we must be prepared to live with the consequences.

God gives us choices. Then he gives us the absolute free choice of which path we will take. He doesn’t present these choices with malice, but out of his sincere desire to make it possible for us to live as true people of God. Many don’t understand this freedom God gives us. The thing God understands and we don’t is that we have no freedom unless we are free to choose.

If you put a child in a room with a jar of candy and tell him not to touch the jar, the child has a choice. If instead we lock that jar in a cabinet and tell the child not to touch it, the child has no choice.

This is the way it is with God and us. If God removed from us all bad choices, we would have no freedom at all. We would not be individuals striving to find a better way. We would be nothing but robots. If we are not given a choice, we have no freedom to choose. God created us to be free.

God gives us choices and the consequence of each one. He has given us the perfect freedom to choose. The rest is up to us."

Since: Jan 13

Location hidden

#149569 Jan 23, 2013
Aura Mytha wrote:
<quoted text> People like you look at a rock and see it as evidence there is a god. "sigh"
People like you look at a rock and see there is evidence for no God.

I hope you understand the use of arbitrary claims is self defeating?

Since: Jan 13

Location hidden

#149570 Jan 23, 2013
wilderide wrote:
<quoted text>
Yet the potter, pot, human, and car all all subject to the same laws of physics, aren't they? So they aren't really so unlike each other as you'd suggest.
<quoted text>
I asked how God could create an entire universe that is entirely unlike it. No one said anything about equal. In fact, for God to create the universe, God would have to be more complex and powerful than the universe itself. So, who created God then?
Who said the universe is entirely unlike God?

Gods nature is reflected in His universe.

That is a false premise you have stated.

Since: Jan 13

Location hidden

#149571 Jan 23, 2013
wilderide wrote:
<quoted text>
Once again, the original question was:
"Slavery, rape and putting every infant to the sword isn't evil?"
According to the Bible, these are things God morally supports. Answering the question has nothing to do with explaining evil without God.
Okay, first explain how you get the concept of evil without God?
Because until you can do that, your question cannot really be answered.

“What's left to defend?”

Since: Jan 11

Freedom

#149572 Jan 23, 2013
mtimber wrote:
I agree.
But the logical conclusion of subjective morality, is that when expediency rears its ugly head, rape is an option because it is not absolute wrong...
"Christian" morality is also subjective.

Didn't you know that?

“Credulity is not a virtue”

Since: Apr 09

San Francisco

#149573 Jan 23, 2013
Langoliers wrote:
<quoted text>
"God has given us the freedom to make choices
April 08, 2011|Bob Lind | Saturday Sermon
One of the stories in the Bible that has always fascinated me is the account of the conversation between Jesus and the man who has become known as the rich young ruler. The account is recorded in three of the books of the Bible. You can read it in Matthew 19:16-30, Mark 10:17-31 and Luke 18:18-30.
There has been great dispute over the meaning of this incident, especially when Jesus said,“... a rich man shall hardly enter into the Kingdom of heaven.” And again,“I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the Kingdom of God.” We will talk about these things later. But this is not what attracted me to this passage. The most surprising and revealing thing in this incident is not what Jesus did and said, but what he did not do.
Look at the story again. What did Jesus say to the young man when he sadly turned and walked away from Jesus? He was unwilling to pay the price Jesus asked. The most revealing thing to me is that Jesus said nothing. When the man rejected Jesus’ terms, Jesus did not coax, bargain, preach or shout threats at him.
Jesus simply watched the man walk away. Then he went about his business with his disciples. There is a lesson here for us.
Jesus knew God had set before this young man a course of conduct. He not only could choose, he had to choose. Then, he had to live with the consequences of his choice. He had alternatives.
Each alternative had consequences. God does not say to us,“You must choose this one.” Rather, he says,“Choose this one and such and such will happen.” But he leaves the choice with us. We are free to choose. The only thing he requires is that once we walk through the door of one of the alternatives, we must be prepared to live with the consequences.
God gives us choices. Then he gives us the absolute free choice of which path we will take. He doesn’t present these choices with malice, but out of his sincere desire to make it possible for us to live as true people of God. Many don’t understand this freedom God gives us. The thing God understands and we don’t is that we have no freedom unless we are free to choose.
If you put a child in a room with a jar of candy and tell him not to touch the jar, the child has a choice. If instead we lock that jar in a cabinet and tell the child not to touch it, the child has no choice.
This is the way it is with God and us. If God removed from us all bad choices, we would have no freedom at all. We would not be individuals striving to find a better way. We would be nothing but robots. If we are not given a choice, we have no freedom to choose. God created us to be free.
God gives us choices and the consequence of each one. He has given us the perfect freedom to choose. The rest is up to us."
That's a nice homily, but it entirely misses the point.

If the future is knowable, then fate exists. If fate exists, then free will is impossible. Thus, if God knows everyone's fate, then free will is impossible. Simple as that.

“Credulity is not a virtue”

Since: Apr 09

San Francisco

#149574 Jan 23, 2013
mtimber wrote:
<quoted text>
Who said the universe is entirely unlike God?
Gods nature is reflected in His universe.
That is a false premise you have stated.
What does "Gods nature is reflected in His universe" mean then? God is partially held to the laws of physics?

“Credulity is not a virtue”

Since: Apr 09

San Francisco

#149575 Jan 23, 2013
mtimber wrote:
<quoted text>
Okay, first explain how you get the concept of evil without God?
Because until you can do that, your question cannot really be answered.
Evil can certainly exist without God, but answering that question has nothing to do with the other question, which was:

"Slavery, rape and putting every infant to the sword isn't evil?"

May I assume you have no answer? If not, let me know and I'll address the other question.

“Credulity is not a virtue”

Since: Apr 09

San Francisco

#149576 Jan 23, 2013
mtimber wrote:
<quoted text>
People like you look at a rock and see there is evidence for no God.
What presumptive evidence is there in a rock for God?

“What's left to defend?”

Since: Jan 11

Freedom

#149577 Jan 23, 2013
mtimber wrote:
The theory of abiogenesis states that life came from non-life.
Abiogenesis is a field of study. There are competing "theories", but no scientific consensus yet.
mtimber wrote:
The simplistic analogy is:
arockdidit
But I think you understand the point already...
That isn't even metaphorically accurate. You want to parrot the "goddidit" argument, which in itself suggests that you realize how fallacious that argument is.

Life either came from non-life, or has always existed. The Biblical Creation myth is also a life from non-life answer. Apparently, in that myth, man was created from clay. I don't know if you interpret that literally or metaphorically, but either way, it suggests an answer of life from non-life.

“Nothing can stop, This Pony..”

Since: Dec 10

Location hidden

#149578 Jan 23, 2013
mtimber wrote:
<quoted text>
Are you familiar with the big bang theory?
Do you realise that the laws of the universe had to be suspended for a fraction of time for the expansion to start in the theory?
So, with your reasoning, you would reject the big bang model?
You don't know what you are talking about. You can't put the cart before the horse and expect to get to town. There were no equilibrium and until the formation of matter and energy separated into its different forms there was no basis for the laws as we know them. Though we are starting to understand the forces in the first few seconds , one is sill elusive and beyond our understanding at this point. Superforce or the unification of all forces separated, we see it partly as zero point energy but cannot duplicate or even model it yet. So you don't make sense, no laws were suspended before they settled into equilibrium.

“Nothing can stop, This Pony..”

Since: Dec 10

Location hidden

#149579 Jan 23, 2013
mtimber wrote:
<quoted text>
I agree.
But the logical conclusion of subjective morality, is that when expediency rears its ugly head, rape is an option because it is not absolute wrong...
It is to us because, were are not primitives or savages.

“What's left to defend?”

Since: Jan 11

Freedom

#149580 Jan 23, 2013
mtimber wrote:
People like you look at a rock and see there is evidence for no God.
I hope you understand the use of arbitrary claims is self defeating?
That was oddly worded.

We look at rocks and see no evidence in those rocks to support a claim that a god exists.

Do you suggest that rocks hold evidence for your god? Does that evidence exclude other gods?

I feel like I'm examining a box of rocks right now.

“Nothing can stop, This Pony..”

Since: Dec 10

Location hidden

#149581 Jan 23, 2013
mtimber wrote:
<quoted text>
People like you look at a rock and see there is evidence for no God.
I hope you understand the use of arbitrary claims is self defeating?
I look at a rock and see what kind it is, sometimes I throw them. Other times I put them on her finger.
Bottom line rocks were formed by processes within the Earth, some are more interesting than others.

“Nothing can stop, This Pony..”

Since: Dec 10

Location hidden

#149582 Jan 23, 2013
Dave Nelson wrote:
<quoted text>
Unless he is absolutely necessary to retrieve coconuts, he would be risking getting killed in his sleep.
A wise man does not make a woman mad before he goes to sleep with her.
Hey if you alone on that island long enough she will come around huh? heheheh

Since: Nov 12

Location hidden

#149583 Jan 23, 2013
mtimber wrote:
<quoted text>
To move outside of space and time through special pleading would of course be illogical.
But if that claim was proven, then it would make sense to accept it.
I understand what you are saying but it is a strange point to make. I apologize for using this as an example but I am using it simply so you can understand how it sounds to me. Ex. 2+2=4 but if 2+2 was 7 then it would be correct and we would change the way we do math.

Yeah. I suppose. But as it is illogical now... it sounds ridiculous and it would need to be proven before we start making other conclusions based on that way of thinking.
mtimber wrote:
<quoted text>
If God is eternal, then time is something He is outside of.
If He is outside of time then He can predict what happens in time.
Time isn't a bubble. It is a sequence of events. Once god "does" anything at all... he exists within time. If he interacts or has a single thought or observation... that is time.

God has been pushed "outside of time and space" because it is the only place believers can put him where we can't touch him. The problem is... for something to be said to exist... it is within space and time... which then puts us in a position we do agree on.
mtimber wrote:
<quoted text>
Through the revelation of prophecy in the scripture, He revealed Himself and gave man this mechanism to test Him against.
He passed that test, proving that He is outside of time as the Creator God would need to be.
So yes, He has proved Himself to all that are reasonable and open to proof on the matter.
I want to take this from a different angle but i want to address this as if i believed it.

If the tested creates the test we have some big problems. I doubt i have to explain this... but for example.... a magician uses a hula hoop to prove his assistant is floating...

Keep in mind i don't believe god would lie as i don't believe in any gods. I'm just pointing out the problem with the claim

“Think&Care”

Since: Oct 07

Location hidden

#149584 Jan 23, 2013
mtimber wrote:
<quoted text>
Do you allow that the single cause can be something outside of our normal experience of time energy and matter?
The center of the sun is outside of our 'normal' experience of matter and energy. There are many, many things in this universe that are outside of what most humans would consider to be 'normal'. What, exactly are you attempting to ask?

If it is a cause, then it is in time. That's definitional when considering causality.

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