Atheism requires as much faith as religion?

Atheism requires as much faith as religion? bearvspuma : The only problem with this rationalization is that ita s assuming all athiests are so because theya re intelligent in the ways of science and reasoning and all people that believe in a form of god are unintelligent. Full Story

Since: Jan 13

Location hidden

#149557 Jan 23, 2013
Pat wrote:
<quoted text>
We have evidence for the big bang in the fact that the universe is expanding. Big Bang theory may turn out to be false but that does not change the fact that the universe is expanding.
We do not know for sure how life began on Earth though we do know for sure there is life.
There is no knowledge of any gods, or what they think, want, do or created. That's all pure fantasy and baseless speculation by death deniers.
Is it a coincidence to you that all those who beleive in god also deny the overwhelming evidence that death ends ones personal memory and awareness?
So if you are not sure how life began and you cannot comprehend it, then by your own admission, you cannot accept that it did happen.

Remember, your standard is that you must be able to comprehend something for it to be true, would you like to retract that?

“ The Lord of delirious minds.”

Since: Dec 10

Location hidden

#149558 Jan 23, 2013
mtimber wrote:
<quoted text>
How does a potter create a pot, which is so unlike it?
How does a human create a car, which is so like it?
The object bears the imprint of the creator but is not equal to the creator.
The universe bears the imprint or God, but is not the same as God.
People like you look at a rock and see it as evidence there is a god. "sigh"

Since: Jan 13

Location hidden

#149559 Jan 23, 2013
Pat wrote:
<quoted text>
You are placing your imaginary god out of bounds as a means of giving him a saftey net.
No, I am pointing you to an inescapable logical conclusion.

If you use reason and logic you will come to the same place, but if you surrender reason and logic, you will not be able to arrive at the logical conclusion.

Everything in this universe had a cause, what was that cause?

What caused matter, energy, time, life, reasoning, logic and morality to appear?

Consider what the first cause would have to be like and the conclusion is quite logical.

You can of course deny those things were caused, but that is quite a rabbit hole to explore...

“Credulity is not a virtue”

Since: Apr 09

San Francisco

#149560 Jan 23, 2013
mtimber wrote:
<quoted text>
How does a potter create a pot, which is so unlike it?
How does a human create a car, which is so like it?
Yet the potter, pot, human, and car all all subject to the same laws of physics, aren't they? So they aren't really so unlike each other as you'd suggest.
The object bears the imprint of the creator but is not equal to the creator.
The universe bears the imprint or God, but is not the same as God.
I asked how God could create an entire universe that is entirely unlike it. No one said anything about equal. In fact, for God to create the universe, God would have to be more complex and powerful than the universe itself. So, who created God then?

Since: Jan 13

Location hidden

#149561 Jan 23, 2013
EmpAtheist wrote:
<quoted text>
I can see how you may feel that way but it doesn't apply here. He is being given attributes that are inconsistent. That is all i was pointing out.
However if you want to move on to your beyond comprehension and outside of time and space claims... I can do that too.
To move outside of space and time through special pleading would of course be illogical.

But if that claim was proven, then it would make sense to accept it.

If God is eternal, then time is something He is outside of.

If He is outside of time then He can predict what happens in time.

Through the revelation of prophecy in the scripture, He revealed Himself and gave man this mechanism to test Him against.

He passed that test, proving that He is outside of time as the Creator God would need to be.

So yes, He has proved Himself to all that are reasonable and open to proof on the matter.

Since: Jan 13

Location hidden

#149562 Jan 23, 2013
EmpAtheist wrote:
<quoted text>
I can see how you may feel that way but it doesn't apply here. He is being given attributes that are inconsistent. That is all i was pointing out.
However if you want to move on to your beyond comprehension and outside of time and space claims... I can do that too.
By the way, I have been enjoying your reasoned posts.

A refreshing change to the general tide of vitriol from the majority of atheists on here.

Long may it continue.

“Credulity is not a virtue”

Since: Apr 09

San Francisco

#149563 Jan 23, 2013
mtimber wrote:
<quoted text>
Okay, first explain how you get the concept of evil without God?
Because until you can do that, your question cannot really be answered.
Once again, the original question was:

"Slavery, rape and putting every infant to the sword isn't evil?"

According to the Bible, these are things God morally supports. Answering the question has nothing to do with explaining evil without God.

Since: Jan 13

Location hidden

#149564 Jan 23, 2013
Aura Mytha wrote:
<quoted text> That's just it, there is no breaking the natural laws , no evidence of it what so ever. If there were this we could point to it as evidence of a god. It doesn't happen except in imagination.
Are you familiar with the big bang theory?

Do you realise that the laws of the universe had to be suspended for a fraction of time for the expansion to start in the theory?

So, with your reasoning, you would reject the big bang model?

“Credulity is not a virtue”

Since: Apr 09

San Francisco

#149565 Jan 23, 2013
Aura Mytha wrote:
<quoted text> People like you look at a rock and see it as evidence there is a god. "sigh"
"Just look around you! God is everywhere"!

When in fact it's not God, but Quetzalcoatl. I mean seriously, how clueless.

Since: Jan 13

Location hidden

#149566 Jan 23, 2013
Aura Mytha wrote:
<quoted text>

BTW it's never ok to take advantage or force yourself on anyone who doesn't want it.
I agree.

But the logical conclusion of subjective morality, is that when expediency rears its ugly head, rape is an option because it is not absolute wrong...

Since: Jan 13

Location hidden

#149567 Jan 23, 2013
Tide with Beach wrote:
<quoted text>
Who says a rock did anything?
Who are you arguing with about rocks?
The theory of abiogenesis states that life came from non-life.

The simplistic analogy is:

arockdidit

But I think you understand the point already...

Since: Apr 12

Location hidden

#149568 Jan 23, 2013
wilderide wrote:
<quoted text>If God is omnipotent, then God is in total control. now?
"God has given us the freedom to make choices
April 08, 2011|Bob Lind | Saturday Sermon

One of the stories in the Bible that has always fascinated me is the account of the conversation between Jesus and the man who has become known as the rich young ruler. The account is recorded in three of the books of the Bible. You can read it in Matthew 19:16-30, Mark 10:17-31 and Luke 18:18-30.

There has been great dispute over the meaning of this incident, especially when Jesus said,“... a rich man shall hardly enter into the Kingdom of heaven.” And again,“I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the Kingdom of God.” We will talk about these things later. But this is not what attracted me to this passage. The most surprising and revealing thing in this incident is not what Jesus did and said, but what he did not do.

Look at the story again. What did Jesus say to the young man when he sadly turned and walked away from Jesus? He was unwilling to pay the price Jesus asked. The most revealing thing to me is that Jesus said nothing. When the man rejected Jesus’ terms, Jesus did not coax, bargain, preach or shout threats at him.

Jesus simply watched the man walk away. Then he went about his business with his disciples. There is a lesson here for us.

Jesus knew God had set before this young man a course of conduct. He not only could choose, he had to choose. Then, he had to live with the consequences of his choice. He had alternatives.

Each alternative had consequences. God does not say to us,“You must choose this one.” Rather, he says,“Choose this one and such and such will happen.” But he leaves the choice with us. We are free to choose. The only thing he requires is that once we walk through the door of one of the alternatives, we must be prepared to live with the consequences.

God gives us choices. Then he gives us the absolute free choice of which path we will take. He doesn’t present these choices with malice, but out of his sincere desire to make it possible for us to live as true people of God. Many don’t understand this freedom God gives us. The thing God understands and we don’t is that we have no freedom unless we are free to choose.

If you put a child in a room with a jar of candy and tell him not to touch the jar, the child has a choice. If instead we lock that jar in a cabinet and tell the child not to touch it, the child has no choice.

This is the way it is with God and us. If God removed from us all bad choices, we would have no freedom at all. We would not be individuals striving to find a better way. We would be nothing but robots. If we are not given a choice, we have no freedom to choose. God created us to be free.

God gives us choices and the consequence of each one. He has given us the perfect freedom to choose. The rest is up to us."

Since: Jan 13

Location hidden

#149569 Jan 23, 2013
Aura Mytha wrote:
<quoted text> People like you look at a rock and see it as evidence there is a god. "sigh"
People like you look at a rock and see there is evidence for no God.

I hope you understand the use of arbitrary claims is self defeating?

Since: Jan 13

Location hidden

#149570 Jan 23, 2013
wilderide wrote:
<quoted text>
Yet the potter, pot, human, and car all all subject to the same laws of physics, aren't they? So they aren't really so unlike each other as you'd suggest.
<quoted text>
I asked how God could create an entire universe that is entirely unlike it. No one said anything about equal. In fact, for God to create the universe, God would have to be more complex and powerful than the universe itself. So, who created God then?
Who said the universe is entirely unlike God?

Gods nature is reflected in His universe.

That is a false premise you have stated.

Since: Jan 13

Location hidden

#149571 Jan 23, 2013
wilderide wrote:
<quoted text>
Once again, the original question was:
"Slavery, rape and putting every infant to the sword isn't evil?"
According to the Bible, these are things God morally supports. Answering the question has nothing to do with explaining evil without God.
Okay, first explain how you get the concept of evil without God?
Because until you can do that, your question cannot really be answered.

“Don't be so dichotomous.”

Since: Jan 11

Embrace the grey.

#149572 Jan 23, 2013
mtimber wrote:
I agree.
But the logical conclusion of subjective morality, is that when expediency rears its ugly head, rape is an option because it is not absolute wrong...
"Christian" morality is also subjective.

Didn't you know that?

“Credulity is not a virtue”

Since: Apr 09

San Francisco

#149573 Jan 23, 2013
Langoliers wrote:
<quoted text>
"God has given us the freedom to make choices
April 08, 2011|Bob Lind | Saturday Sermon
One of the stories in the Bible that has always fascinated me is the account of the conversation between Jesus and the man who has become known as the rich young ruler. The account is recorded in three of the books of the Bible. You can read it in Matthew 19:16-30, Mark 10:17-31 and Luke 18:18-30.
There has been great dispute over the meaning of this incident, especially when Jesus said,“... a rich man shall hardly enter into the Kingdom of heaven.” And again,“I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the Kingdom of God.” We will talk about these things later. But this is not what attracted me to this passage. The most surprising and revealing thing in this incident is not what Jesus did and said, but what he did not do.
Look at the story again. What did Jesus say to the young man when he sadly turned and walked away from Jesus? He was unwilling to pay the price Jesus asked. The most revealing thing to me is that Jesus said nothing. When the man rejected Jesus’ terms, Jesus did not coax, bargain, preach or shout threats at him.
Jesus simply watched the man walk away. Then he went about his business with his disciples. There is a lesson here for us.
Jesus knew God had set before this young man a course of conduct. He not only could choose, he had to choose. Then, he had to live with the consequences of his choice. He had alternatives.
Each alternative had consequences. God does not say to us,“You must choose this one.” Rather, he says,“Choose this one and such and such will happen.” But he leaves the choice with us. We are free to choose. The only thing he requires is that once we walk through the door of one of the alternatives, we must be prepared to live with the consequences.
God gives us choices. Then he gives us the absolute free choice of which path we will take. He doesn’t present these choices with malice, but out of his sincere desire to make it possible for us to live as true people of God. Many don’t understand this freedom God gives us. The thing God understands and we don’t is that we have no freedom unless we are free to choose.
If you put a child in a room with a jar of candy and tell him not to touch the jar, the child has a choice. If instead we lock that jar in a cabinet and tell the child not to touch it, the child has no choice.
This is the way it is with God and us. If God removed from us all bad choices, we would have no freedom at all. We would not be individuals striving to find a better way. We would be nothing but robots. If we are not given a choice, we have no freedom to choose. God created us to be free.
God gives us choices and the consequence of each one. He has given us the perfect freedom to choose. The rest is up to us."
That's a nice homily, but it entirely misses the point.

If the future is knowable, then fate exists. If fate exists, then free will is impossible. Thus, if God knows everyone's fate, then free will is impossible. Simple as that.

“Credulity is not a virtue”

Since: Apr 09

San Francisco

#149574 Jan 23, 2013
mtimber wrote:
<quoted text>
Who said the universe is entirely unlike God?
Gods nature is reflected in His universe.
That is a false premise you have stated.
What does "Gods nature is reflected in His universe" mean then? God is partially held to the laws of physics?

“Credulity is not a virtue”

Since: Apr 09

San Francisco

#149575 Jan 23, 2013
mtimber wrote:
<quoted text>
Okay, first explain how you get the concept of evil without God?
Because until you can do that, your question cannot really be answered.
Evil can certainly exist without God, but answering that question has nothing to do with the other question, which was:

"Slavery, rape and putting every infant to the sword isn't evil?"

May I assume you have no answer? If not, let me know and I'll address the other question.

“Credulity is not a virtue”

Since: Apr 09

San Francisco

#149576 Jan 23, 2013
mtimber wrote:
<quoted text>
People like you look at a rock and see there is evidence for no God.
What presumptive evidence is there in a rock for God?

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