Atheism requires as much faith as religion?

Jul 18, 2009 Read more: Webbunny tumblelog 237,782
Atheism requires as much faith as religion? bearvspuma : The only problem with this rationalization is that ita s assuming all athiests are so because theya re intelligent in the ways of science and reasoning and all people that believe in a form of god are unintelligent. Read more
Thinking

Leighton Buzzard, UK

#149331 Jan 22, 2013
Still loving it. We're pretty high up in the Chilterns so it still looks good.

Walking a dog through muddy fields is much less fun than through snow.
Clementia wrote:
<quoted text>
u still enjoying the snow? I'm fed up of it! I want it to rain.

“ Knight Of Hyrule”

Since: Dec 10

Location hidden

#149332 Jan 22, 2013
mtimber wrote:
<quoted text>
Thank you.
Point proved.
Slavery was not wrong then, but is now.
And if tomorrow society decides that slavery of a few will benefit the majority, with your reasoning, you are duty bound to follow that decision.
If you have lived in Germany during the 1930's, with your reasoning here, you would have been a nazi...
Have you really thought this through thoroughly?
Slavery may not have been moral then (to us), but was considered such 2-6 thousand years ago. But you can't apply one standard against the other because we do not understand life the same way.

Survival is not necessarily an submission of approval.
One may be a Nazi in 1940's Germany for no other reason than fear.
Yes morality is subjective like that but you have to remember the dynamics that the singular impression of it may differ from the majority. But you are also using two standards where one is pretty much universal in 1940 Germany , the seeds of freedom had been already been sewn throughout the world.

“ecrasez l'infame”

Since: May 08

Atlanta, Georgia

#149333 Jan 22, 2013
mtimber wrote:
<quoted text>
But even after several days, you still cannot account how you keep appealing to absolute moral standards, whilst denying they exist?...
You have yet to define what you mean by "absolute moral standards". Those listed in the Bible most certainly cannot be what you are talking about.
mtimber wrote:
<quoted text>
...You keep making authority claims about morality, but what is your ultimate standard of morality upon which you keep measuring moral issues with?...
No, I don't. But I realize it is beyond you to understand.
mtimber wrote:
<quoted text>
You certainly do not get it from atheism, which you want to present as a rational viewpoint to adopt...
Atheism only informs you of what I am NOT, i.e., I am not a theist. It tells you nothing about what I am. Again this appears to be too hard for you to understand.

What I am is a Humanist.

Humanists understand that ethical values are derived from human need and interest as tested by experience. We are committed to treating each person as having inherent worth and dignity, and to making informed choices in a context of responsible freedom.

Humanists understand that humans are social by nature and find meaning in relationships. Humanists long for and strive toward a world of mutual care and concern, free of cruelty and its consequences, where differences are resolved cooperatively without resorting to violence.

Humanists understand that working to benefit society maximizes individual happiness.

Humanists are concerned for the well being of all, are committed to the equal enjoyment of human rights and civil liberties in an open, secular society and maintain it is a civic duty to participate in the democratic process.

Since: Oct 12

Location hidden

#149334 Jan 22, 2013
TheBlackSheep wrote:
<quoted text>
So, the morality that your family abides by is the morality that you learned in India or England? Was it learned from your religion or your town?
What makes you believe that your morality is superior to mine?
I learnt it from my mummy, who learnt it from her mummy, and so on, they influenced by Nanak and the saints. i honestly don't know if we influenced by our religion or born this way, but we agree with Nanak and we don't wanna see others in pain. This feeling runs through all my mother's side of the family. There might be 1 rotten apple in the family, i'm sure. But my papa's side of the family also go to the gurudwara, believe in Nanak, but they are pure evil! I don't know maybe some people just don't wanna even try to be good.

I never said my morality was superior than your? morality is mortality how can u have different levels, killing someone is wrong, killing them softly is worse than killing them quickly?

I was trying to tell u that since the beginning of the hindu religion, which was started thousands of years before any other religion, it might even be the first ever religion on the planet. The saints in that religion are saying, murder, rape, slavery is wrong, so how can u say morality changes?

I don't know about western religions, but in the eastern religions, morality has always been the same. Yes, people in India kept slaves, raped women, murdered etc..but everyone always knew it was immoral. But stupid, ignorant, powerful people still do evil things!
Pat

Granby, CT

#149335 Jan 22, 2013
mtimber wrote:
<quoted text>
Now let me apply the same arbitrary argument so you can see how logically absurd it is, back to you:
EVERY argument for arockdidit is an argument from ignorance based not upon knowledge but rather the absence of it. arockdidit = human ignorance.
That rabbit hole isn't worth pursuing.
Enjoy your stupid.

Since: Sep 08

Westcliffe, CO

#149336 Jan 22, 2013
Hedonist wrote:
<quoted text>
You have yet to define what you mean by "absolute moral standards". Those listed in the Bible most certainly cannot be what you are talking about.
<quoted text>
No, I don't. But I realize it is beyond you to understand.
<quoted text>
Atheism only informs you of what I am NOT, i.e., I am not a theist. It tells you nothing about what I am. Again this appears to be too hard for you to understand.
What I am is a Humanist.
Humanists understand that ethical values are derived from human need and interest as tested by experience. We are committed to treating each person as having inherent worth and dignity, and to making informed choices in a context of responsible freedom.
Humanists understand that humans are social by nature and find meaning in relationships. Humanists long for and strive toward a world of mutual care and concern, free of cruelty and its consequences, where differences are resolved cooperatively without resorting to violence.
Humanists understand that working to benefit society maximizes individual happiness.
Humanists are concerned for the well being of all, are committed to the equal enjoyment of human rights and civil liberties in an open, secular society and maintain it is a civic duty to participate in the democratic process.
That humanism is an offshoot of Christianity.

You wouldn't have it without Christianity, or a belief in a higher authority. Now you want to kill Christianity and higher authorities.

That higher authority concept is what keeps men kind of honest. Makes them less prone to discard what they consider less productive or capable. You should thank God religion exists.
Pat

Granby, CT

#149337 Jan 22, 2013
mtimber wrote:
<quoted text>
You first appeal to an absolute standard of morality.
You then appeal to subjective morality.
You then appeal to absolute standards of morality.
Your whole post is illogical, as it is full of contradictions...
You amoral lying theists crack me up.
Pat

Granby, CT

#149338 Jan 22, 2013
Dave Nelson wrote:
<quoted text>
Your group cooperation requires the elimination of threats to said group and its survival as a group. Meaning you kill your enemies, or render them no longer a threat. You may even gain an economic advantage in enslaving them. It also means silencing dissidents within the group.
Strictly a secularist thing.
Any sense of "group" beyond your immediate one is based upon some ideal beyond the physical.
You are a confused person.
Don't project your confusion onto me, fool.
Pat

Granby, CT

#149339 Jan 22, 2013
mtimber wrote:
<quoted text>
But how do you define the right thing.
I have yet to see you present a reasonable basis for morality.
Your last attempt was it is okay to be immoral as long as you pay for the crime later.
The ends justify the means in other words.
The golden rule is unreasonable?

The "right thing" depends on the situation at hand.

There is an evolutionary basis for morality. Educate yourself.

“What's left to defend?”

Since: Jan 11

Freedom

#149340 Jan 22, 2013
mtimber wrote:
Exactly.
And this is what the Bible explains.
Man thinks that through his own finite reasoning, he can reason greater than God, who gave him that reasoning, which has now become perverted.
The problem is that you soon are reduced to absurdity, when you reject the God whos nature is logical.
If you are the arbiter of morality, what happens if someone disagrees with you?
I'm sorry, but you've been brainwashed.

There's nothing I can do for you.

Since: Oct 12

Location hidden

#149341 Jan 22, 2013
TheBlackSheep wrote:
<quoted text>
If you religion is not the same age as humans; what took your god so long to teach humans what he demands?
Sikhism came to remind everyone of the old hindu religion that people had forgotten! Sikhism never said we are the chosen people, we r NOT a special new race, Nanak said that sikhs of the guru have always been coming into the world and they will keep coming and they will always stand up against evil.

I don't think u know that our religious book contains the writing of muslim and hindu saints who came BEFORE Nanak. Nanak collected their separate poetry and put it in 1 book and said these are sikhs, be like them. They speak the word of God!

Pralad was a hindu saint, he is mentioned in the hindu religion thousands of years ago, but Nanak said he was a sikh of the guru, chant the name like he did.

Nanak told us to follow in the footsteps of the good people, whether they are muslims, hindu, christian, atheists, they are the sikhs of the guru!

So since hinduism started to sikhism, saints have been preaching the same message.

We only have proof upto hindu religion, before that we run out of historical evidence/documents, we don't have any older records. So since records started in india we can see that the saints have had the same morality.

Since: May 10

Location hidden

#149342 Jan 22, 2013
Dave Nelson wrote:
<quoted text>
That humanism is an offshoot of Christianity.
You wouldn't have it without Christianity, or a belief in a higher authority. Now you want to kill Christianity and higher authorities.
That higher authority concept is what keeps men kind of honest. Makes them less prone to discard what they consider less productive or capable. You should thank God religion exists.
I bet he doesn't even know you toasted his ass, Dave.

Hi there. Miss your posts.

Since: Oct 12

Location hidden

#149344 Jan 22, 2013
@River......We worship Allah/christian God, too! God is one, but we have a different view of him/her/it etc..! But i get what u mean!

@Tide...I can't do anything on a plane, I have to keep my eyes closed and try to go to sleep, i can't handle being on a plane.

@Thinking...did i tell u, my car came back to life? Well, it did!! I just don't want it to snow more!
Thinking

Leighton Buzzard, UK

#149345 Jan 22, 2013
Odd. Why would one raise a glass to another man's buttocks?
Buck Crick wrote:
<quoted text>
I bet he doesn't even know you toasted his ass, Dave.

Since: Oct 12

Location hidden

#149346 Jan 22, 2013
Tide with Beach wrote:
<quoted text>
I'm sorry, but you've been brainwashed.
There's nothing I can do for you.
Is there anything u could do for me?

write my award speech?:-)

Since: May 10

Location hidden

#149347 Jan 22, 2013
Clementia wrote:
@Tide...I can't do anything on a plane, I have to keep my eyes closed and try to go to sleep,...
I bet I could make you open your eyes.

Some women have thought they would pop out of their sockets.

Since: Jan 13

Location hidden

#149348 Jan 22, 2013
Thinking wrote:
You're still incorrect.
It would be immoral not to save civilians from a bomb blast if you could.
An all powerful god that lets children get shot, or die of leukaemia, or get raped by priests, or to be threatened with eternal damnation would also be immoral- if such a god existed.
<quoted text>
You are still doing it.

You are appealing to an absolute standard of morality, whilst denying one exists.

If there is not an absolute standard, they you cannot argue that "anything" is immoral...

Since: May 10

Location hidden

#149349 Jan 22, 2013
Thinking wrote:
Odd. Why would one raise a glass to another man's buttocks?
<quoted text>
Not sure. I can crack walnuts with mine. Maybe that's it.

(It's handy for baking)

Since: Jan 13

Location hidden

#149350 Jan 22, 2013
Aura Mytha wrote:
<quoted text>
Slavery may not have been moral then (to us), but was considered such 2-6 thousand years ago. But you can't apply one standard against the other because we do not understand life the same way.
Survival is not necessarily an submission of approval.
One may be a Nazi in 1940's Germany for no other reason than fear.
Yes morality is subjective like that but you have to remember the dynamics that the singular impression of it may differ from the majority. But you are also using two standards where one is pretty much universal in 1940 Germany , the seeds of freedom had been already been sewn throughout the world.
That is my point.

You keep claiming that in the past, that there was a lesser standard of morality.

But you cannot argue that, you can only argue a "different" standard of subjective morality, as subjective morality by its nature can only argue "different", not "right" or "wrong".

That is of course leaving aside the fact you need an absolute standard of morality with which to define a subjective standard of morality...

As society determines your morality for you, whatever society decides you have to abide by.

Are you happy with that?

“What's left to defend?”

Since: Jan 11

Freedom

#149351 Jan 22, 2013
mtimber wrote:
Yes, you do want to set the standard for your own morality, that is your sinful condition.
I notice that you demand atheists are not disparaged, but that you have no issue when christians are disparaged. So that high horse is one you should not be riding.:-)
Atheism demands a very limited view of the world based on a biblical truth, that states that men suppress the truth of Gods existance because of their love of sin.
I rail against Christianity, not necessarily Christians. Christianity has a doctrine and a history deserving of harsh ridicule and condemnation.

Look at what Christianity did to you. You aren't able to learn anything that contradicts your programming. I learn new things everyday, and change my mind often in response to better information coming in. My morality and ethics continue to improve as I learn more about the world and humanity. Your worldview was born thousands of years ago out of ignorant tribalism.

There is nothing in the Bible or in the behavior of Christians that suggests a link to a deity. It's a religion. People in religions believe their religions. There are many religions. If all those people believe just like you do, what sets you apart? Do you believe they are being deceived or deluded? Could that not happen to you? Are you immune to being deceived?

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