Atheism requires as much faith as religion?

There are 239051 comments on the Webbunny tumblelog story from Jul 18, 2009, titled Atheism requires as much faith as religion?. In it, Webbunny tumblelog reports that:

Atheism requires as much faith as religion? bearvspuma : The only problem with this rationalization is that ita s assuming all athiests are so because theya re intelligent in the ways of science and reasoning and all people that believe in a form of god are unintelligent.

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“Ditat Deus”

Since: Jul 12

Location hidden

#137602 Nov 14, 2012
KittenKoder wrote:
<quoted text>
Then humans cannot have free will.
Because God is omniscient, you think humans have no free will?

“Ditat Deus”

Since: Jul 12

Location hidden

#137603 Nov 14, 2012
KittenKoder wrote:
<quoted text>
You are demonstrating confirmation bias on a daily basis, so it is safe to assume that you are doing that same thing when you "think" your prayers work.
It is believers who have never provided conclusive evidence of prayer working, it's one of the most common reasons for believers to become deists, actually. However, your asserting that it does work is dangerous, there are many parents who have allowed their children to suffer agonizing and horrific deaths that could have been prevented with medicine simply because it was "god's will." If you cannot provide solid evidence, then you cannot claim it works at all.
Ugh.. Here's one of many tests that show prayer DOES work:

"1. "Positive Therapeutic Effects of Intercessory Prayer in a Coronary Care Unit Population"

Methods
Cardiac patients from the San Francisco General Medical Center were randomly divided (using a computer-generated list) into two groups. The names of the patients in the "test" group were given to a group of Christians, who prayed for them while they were in the hospital. The intercessory prayer team members were chosen on the following basis:

Born again Christians on the basis of John 3:35
Led an active Christian life on the basis of
daily devotional prayer
fellowship in a local Christian church
The "placebo" group received no prayer. Neither the "test" nor the "placebo" group of patients knew if they were receiving prayer. Likewise, the hospital staff, doctors, or nurses were "blinded" since they did not know which patient belonged to which group.

Results
Statistics were acquired from the prayer and placebo groups both before and after prayer, until the patients were discharged from the hospital. There were no statistical differences between the placebo and the prayer groups before prayer was initiated. The results demonstrated that patients who were prayed for suffered "less congestive heart failure, required less diuretic and antibiotic therapy, had fewer episodes of pneumonia, had fewer cardiac arrests, and were less frequently intubated and ventilated." Statistics demonstrated the the prayer group had a statistically significantly lower severity score based upon the hospital course after entry (p < 0.01). Multivariate analysis of all the parameters measured demonstrated that the outcomes of the two groups were even more statistically significant (p < 0.0001). In science, the standard level of significance is when a "p value" is less than 0.05. A value of 0.01 means that the likelihood the result is because of chance is one in 100. A p value of 0.0001 indicates that in only one study out of 10,000 is the result likely to be due to chance. Table 2 from the study is reproduced below. The remarkable thing which one notices is that nearly every parameter measured is affected by prayer, although individually many categories do not reach the level of statistical significance due to sample size. However, multivariate analysis, which compares all parameters together produces a level of significance seldom reached in any scientific study (p < 0.0001). The author points out that the method used in this study does not produce the maximum effect of prayer, since the study could not control for the effect of outside prayer (i.e., it is likely many of the placebo group were prayed for by persons outside of the study). It is likely that a study which used only atheists (who had no Christian family or friends) would produce an even more dramatic result. However, since atheists make up only 1-2% of the population, it would be difficult to obtain a large enough sample size."

www.godandscience.org/.../pra ...

“I Am No One Else”

Since: Apr 12

Seattle

#137604 Nov 14, 2012
RiversideRedneck wrote:
<quoted text>
Because God is omniscient, you think humans have no free will?
If the future is known, then nothing done is choice, it's destined to happen. Destiny is the opposite of free will.

“What's left to defend?”

Since: Jan 11

Freedom

#137605 Nov 14, 2012
RiversideRedneck wrote:
<quoted text>
Because God is omniscient, you think humans have no free will?
We don't have free will whether there are gods or not.

I don't subscribe to the "proof" that an omniscient god can't be in the same universe as free will. I can say that free will is just an illusion, and an omniscient god cannot exist physically/materially.

If we can say that anything is impossible, anything at all, we can also say that omniscient gods are impossible.

“I Am No One Else”

Since: Apr 12

Seattle

#137606 Nov 14, 2012
RiversideRedneck wrote:
<quoted text>
Ugh.. Here's one of many tests that show prayer DOES work:
"1. "Positive Therapeutic Effects of Intercessory Prayer in a Coronary Care Unit Population"
Methods
Cardiac patients from the San Francisco General Medical Center were randomly divided (using a computer-generated list) into two groups. The names of the patients in the "test" group were given to a group of Christians, who prayed for them while they were in the hospital. The intercessory prayer team members were chosen on the following basis:
Born again Christians on the basis of John 3:35
Led an active Christian life on the basis of
daily devotional prayer
fellowship in a local Christian church
The "placebo" group received no prayer. Neither the "test" nor the "placebo" group of patients knew if they were receiving prayer. Likewise, the hospital staff, doctors, or nurses were "blinded" since they did not know which patient belonged to which group.
Results
Statistics were acquired from the prayer and placebo groups both before and after prayer, until the patients were discharged from the hospital. There were no statistical differences between the placebo and the prayer groups before prayer was initiated. The results demonstrated that patients who were prayed for suffered "less congestive heart failure, required less diuretic and antibiotic therapy, had fewer episodes of pneumonia, had fewer cardiac arrests, and were less frequently intubated and ventilated." Statistics demonstrated the the prayer group had a statistically significantly lower severity score based upon the hospital course after entry (p < 0.01). Multivariate analysis of all the parameters measured demonstrated that the outcomes of the two groups were even more statistically significant (p < 0.0001). In science, the standard level of significance is when a "p value" is less than 0.05. A value of 0.01 means that the likelihood the result is because of chance is one in 100. A p value of 0.0001 indicates that in only one study out of 10,000 is the result likely to be due to chance. Table 2 from the study is reproduced below. The remarkable thing which one notices is that nearly every parameter measured is affected by prayer, although individually many categories do not reach the level of statistical significance due to sample size. However, multivariate analysis, which compares all parameters together produces a level of significance seldom reached in any scientific study (p < 0.0001). The author points out that the method used in this study does not produce the maximum effect of prayer, since the study could not control for the effect of outside prayer (i.e., it is likely many of the placebo group were prayed for by persons outside of the study). It is likely that a study which used only atheists (who had no Christian family or friends) would produce an even more dramatic result. However, since atheists make up only 1-2% of the population, it would be difficult to obtain a large enough sample size."
www.godandscience.org/.../pra ...
That "study" did not make those findings, your source is one of many that manipulated the data.

Since: Mar 11

Lexington, KY

#137607 Nov 14, 2012
Ah yes I thought he was crying about David Coppedge.

:Sigh:
KittenKoder wrote:
<quoted text>
Actually, the story he's talking about was posted on Topix recently. It's real, just that not even the Supreme Court found any validity to the claim.
http://www.topix.com/news/evolution/2012/11/j...

Since: Mar 11

Lexington, KY

#137608 Nov 14, 2012
So Catholics aren't Christian? Or do you want a do over half wit?
RiversideRedneck wrote:
<quoted text>
I don't see what's so funny. I'm Christian, I don't go to Catholic Churches.....

Since: Mar 11

Lexington, KY

#137609 Nov 14, 2012
Believers like you make everything MUCH more funny. Never liked weed, all it ever did for me the few times I tried it was give me a headache but that's just me.
RiversideRedneck wrote:
<quoted text>
I hear that weed makes everything funny.....

“Ditat Deus”

Since: Jul 12

Location hidden

#137610 Nov 14, 2012
KittenKoder wrote:
<quoted text>
Actually, the story he's talking about was posted on Topix recently. It's real, just that not even the Supreme Court found any validity to the claim.
http://www.topix.com/news/evolution/2012/11/j...
"In his lawsuit, Coppedge claimed he was demoted in 2009 and then let go for engaging his co-workers in conversations about his views."

Awesome.

One wonders why the other coworkers didn't fired for expressing their views......

“MEET ROSEMARY-She Seeks Home”

Since: Oct 10

With Established Harem

#137611 Nov 14, 2012
timn17 wrote:
I made a mistake in that post up there, eagle. If you can find it you get five points.
.. will give CATCHER 2-1 odds that Eagle can catch it ..

.. COME ON EAGLE, do your thing! Find the error so CATCHER has to loan another $50 to KIVA ..

“Ditat Deus”

Since: Jul 12

Location hidden

#137612 Nov 14, 2012
KittenKoder wrote:
<quoted text>
That "study" did not make those findings, your source is one of many that manipulated the data.
Oh of course.....

It's manipulated data....

I should have known.

“Ditat Deus”

Since: Jul 12

Location hidden

#137613 Nov 14, 2012
KittenKoder wrote:
<quoted text>
Presupposition, you should stop making those.
You want prayer to work, so you deny when it fails.
Why is it ok for you and not me?

You presuppose that prayer doesn't work & go from there...

“In the beginning God Created..”

Since: Feb 12

Southern Illinois

#137614 Nov 14, 2012
Givemeliberty wrote:
So you want to dive into the scientific world but don't wanna tawk with none O them fancy science words and smart people college webzones!
Ok here you go! Real proof given by a devout CHRISTIAN SCIENTIST one of yours.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v =BXdQRvSdLAsXX
And if that is just to hard for you to understand we will be resorting to this.
http://www.charliesplayhouse.com/
And..
http://www.youtube.com/watch...
You're welcome
<quoted text>
Thank you for the reference.

Primates have 48 Chromosomes. We have 46, ok thatís pretty close but potatoes have 46.

Chromosome #2 fused somehow allegedly.

How did it fuse, what caused the fusion? When did the fusion occur?

Evolution supposedly is this slow blending and gradual change.

However a fusion would indicate a sudden change.

You canít gradually fuse a chromosome. I canít image a chromosome gradually fusing, can you? Itís either fused or not. Like a chain, itís linked or not linked. Thereís no gradual linking.

To me the fusing of Chromosome #2 indicates that evolution didnít happen to mankind.

“Ditat Deus”

Since: Jul 12

Location hidden

#137615 Nov 14, 2012
KittenKoder wrote:
<quoted text>
If the future is known, then nothing done is choice, it's destined to happen. Destiny is the opposite of free will.
The future is not known to you, therefore you can choose what you want to do. That's free will.

“Ditat Deus”

Since: Jul 12

Location hidden

#137616 Nov 14, 2012
Tide with Beach wrote:
<quoted text>
We don't have free will whether there are gods or not.
I don't subscribe to the "proof" that an omniscient god can't be in the same universe as free will. I can say that free will is just an illusion, and an omniscient god cannot exist physically/materially.
If we can say that anything is impossible, anything at all, we can also say that omniscient gods are impossible.
Why don't you think we have free will? Regardless of God or not.

“Ditat Deus”

Since: Jul 12

Location hidden

#137617 Nov 14, 2012
Givemeliberty wrote:
So Catholics aren't Christian? Or do you want a do over half wit?
<quoted text>
Here Homer, do some light reading & shut yer trap:

Question: What is the difference between Catholicism and Biblical Christianity?

Answer: Catholicism and Biblical Christianity are divergent religions. They are built on different foundations, and they propose different ways of salvation.

In principle, Christianity is built solely on the Holy Scriptures, the written Word of God. The Bible is our only infallible rule of faith, being sufficient to give us the sure knowledge of the Gospel for our salvation and holiness.

Roman Catholicism demands submission of the intellect and will to the doctrines taught by the Roman magisterium (the Pope and bishops). It is claimed that the Catholic Church derives its doctrines from the "sacred deposit" found in Scriptures and Sacred Tradition. However the faithful cannot verify these doctrines by referring to the original sources. The Scriptures are inaccessible because only the magisterium is able to establish the authentic meaning. Similarly the contents of Sacred Tradition can only be known through the magisterium. Roman Catholicism is mental and spiritual slavery to the Vatican.

www.justforcatholics.org/a19.htm
Serah

Australia

#137618 Nov 14, 2012
Eagle12 wrote:
<quoted text>
Thank you for the reference.
Primates have 48 Chromosomes. We have 46, ok thatís pretty close but potatoes have 46.
Chromosome #2 fused somehow allegedly.
How did it fuse, what caused the fusion? When did the fusion occur?
Evolution supposedly is this slow blending and gradual change.
However a fusion would indicate a sudden change.
You canít gradually fuse a chromosome. I canít image a chromosome gradually fusing, can you? Itís either fused or not. Like a chain, itís linked or not linked. Thereís no gradual linking.
To me the fusing of Chromosome #2 indicates that evolution didnít happen to mankind.
Wonder how long it took for a potato to grow lips?

Or an organism to turn into a male dog, cocking their legs instead of squatting like a female doggy? I have seen female doggies cock their legs, but nothing like the way the male gets his leg right up there!!

“The eye has it...”

Since: May 09

Russell's Teapot

#137619 Nov 14, 2012
RiversideRedneck wrote:
<quoted text>
Here Homer, do some light reading & shut yer trap:
Question: What is the difference between Catholicism and Biblical Christianity?
Answer: Catholicism and Biblical Christianity are divergent religions. They are built on different foundations, and they propose different ways of salvation.
In principle, Christianity is built solely on the Holy Scriptures, the written Word of God. The Bible is our only infallible rule of faith, being sufficient to give us the sure knowledge of the Gospel for our salvation and holiness.
Roman Catholicism demands submission of the intellect and will to the doctrines taught by the Roman magisterium (the Pope and bishops). It is claimed that the Catholic Church derives its doctrines from the "sacred deposit" found in Scriptures and Sacred Tradition. However the faithful cannot verify these doctrines by referring to the original sources. The Scriptures are inaccessible because only the magisterium is able to establish the authentic meaning. Similarly the contents of Sacred Tradition can only be known through the magisterium. Roman Catholicism is mental and spiritual slavery to the Vatican.
www.justforcatholics.org/a19.htm
Adjective: divergent
1. Diverging from another or from a standard
2. Tending to move apart in different directions

WordWeb Pro 6.0

“What's left to defend?”

Since: Jan 11

Freedom

#137620 Nov 14, 2012
RiversideRedneck wrote:
<quoted text>
Why don't you think we have free will? Regardless of God or not.
Any decision we could possibly make is determined by knowable factors, and is therefor predictable. If our behavior is predictable, we are not free in our choices, they are constrained by these knowable factors. It's possible that there might be random elements involved in the decision making process, but there will always be some quantity of time between a random event and the effect it has on the decision making process. That time interval allows for all necessary information to be available for computation, which then gets us back to predictability.

Where is the freedom, if all your decisions could be made by computation of the factors that contribute to your decisions? Your brain is the computer that does this. What you think of as free will is just the culmination of complex factors being computed by your brain, and appearing to your conscious mind as a free choice.

I would argue that omniscience is impossible, however, it is possible to follow and predict human decisions. There is no logical barrier there that would prevent this from happening. It's a technological problem. I doubt we will ever be able to do this with 100% accuracy, but it isn't impossible.

To recap, when humans decide something, they are computing based on available information and also being influenced by the state of the body they reside in. Chemicals and stuff like that have an effect, as do temperature, altitude, time of day, all sorts of things. All of this is so complex that we have the illusion of free will, but we are not truly free.
Serah

Australia

#137621 Nov 14, 2012
***A group of archaeologists now contend it was indeed symbolic - but not religious symbolism, it was more political.

The Stonehenge Riverside Project (SRP) consortium has spent 10 years exploring Stonehenge and its surrounding landscape along with the social and economic conditions during the monument's main stages of construction (3,000 B.C. and 2,500 B.C.) and have concluded that Stonehenge was built as a monument to show the unity the peoples of Britain after a long period of conflict and regional difference between the eastern and western regions. Its stones are thought to have symbolized the ancestors of different groups of earliest farming communities in Britain, with some stones coming from southern England and others from west Wales.

Bold, social ideas from ancient people, but we also got the Pyramids, the Silk Road and the epic Gilgamesh during that time, so it is entirely believable. Stonehenge may also have been built in a place that already had special significance for prehistoric Britons. The SRP team have found that its solstice-aligned Avenue sits upon a series of natural landforms that, by chance, form an axis between the directions of midsummer sunrise and midwinter sunset.

http://www.science20.com/news_articles/why_wa... ***

***Thousands of people have gathered at Stonehenge to celebrate the summer solstice despite overcast skies.

Cloud cover meant pagans and druids were unable to witness the sunrise following the longest day of the year.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-wiltshir... ***

***Druids, pagans and revellers cheer as the sun rises at Stonehenge (winter solstice)

http://www.guardian.co.uk/culture/gallery/201... ***

I wonder why they are saying that the rising of the sun for summer & winter solstice was a 'fluke' and yet today, people still gather there for winter and summer solstice?

Is it because they depict man(kind) as more ape like 3600 years BC and without the intelligence required to put together some so very special?

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