Atheism requires as much faith as religion?

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Atheism requires as much faith as religion? bearvspuma : The only problem with this rationalization is that ita s assuming all athiests are so because theya re intelligent in the ways of science and reasoning and all people that believe in a form of god are unintelligent.

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Since: Mar 11

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#129271
Oct 13, 2012
 
Dave Nelson wrote:
<quoted text>
"Species evolve, not individuals. Say it with me. Species evolve, not individuals. One more time? Species evolve, not individuals."
Those were your words, lovey.
If an individual inherited mutated genes from its parent, did it not evolve?
Yes, those are my words. Apparently they're quite difficult for you to grasp.

No, individuals with mutations do not evolve. They are individuals born with mutations.

Once again, evolution is defined as "allelic frequency changes in a gene pool, over time."

The individual born with mutations would be part of the evolutionary process, but does not themself evolve. That would require their genes to change and that doesn't happen.
Or its offspring if such mutation enabled its survival and reproduction? If that individual was the only offspring and died before it reproduced, did it not affect the evolution of the species genomes?
Individuals are not gene pools. Only species compromise gene pools. Individuals' genes do not change during their lifetime.
If they were units, it would be assumed their survival to reproduce, or death before such, evolved the species.
Sure. Individuals contribute to the evolution of a species. They don't evolve, though.
On the individual level. For one thing, the individual had to develop the mutation for it to be passed on. Its individual ability to exploit an advantage evolved within itself.
No. For mutations to be passed on, they have to be in the germline DNA - so the gametes. You're a man, presumably, and you make sperm every day. Each one of those sperms, well the fertile ones anyways, has a chance to have a mutation. That doesn't mean the mutation is represented in your body, though.

Remember your basic biology? Meiosis? In males, meiosis is the largest cause of mutations in the sperm. However, your gametes can also be hit by mutagens, too. No, that doesn't alter your genetic makeup, only that of your gametes.

If, on the other hand, you were born of one of those mutated sperm, then the mutant gene is already expressed throughout your body (or where ever it expresses itself). Again, you're not evolving since your genes aren't changing. You were born that way, the genes stay that way your entire life.

I suppose you could imagine some kind of Star Trek disease/parasite that changes your entire genome. In that case, you would have evolved. That doesn't happen in nature. The closest parallel to this sci-fi would be something like a somatic-line genetic virus that humans have turned HIV into. The first time it was used, it caused massive organ failure and the patient died in 48 hours. So, they didn't evolve. They just died b/c their DNA was disrupted and they could no longer function.

Since: Mar 11

Louisville, KY

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#129272
Oct 13, 2012
 
Perhaps but all would have a good time and it beats the hell out of flying planes into buildings.
Hidingfromyou wrote:
<quoted text>
hahaha, totally!
You'd want to be careful around Bacchus followers, though, they would drink you under the table every single time.

“I won, I won, I won!!!”

Since: Mar 11

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#129273
Oct 13, 2012
 
preterism wrote:
<quoted text> It wasn't done with God's approval these atrocities you speak of were done by evil people. The devi is very cunning in his ways, as stalin was of the devil in his actions and deeds. This is so ridiculous to say that stalin or hitler were Christians, only your deeds and actions prove you a Christian or, a wolf in sheep's clothing.
Baby, neither of your gods, "God" or "Satan" exist. Men act all by themselves.

All the killing that has gone on in the name of religion is not because some god is directing its worshipers to kill, it's because the people either 1) believe that some god is telling them to kill or 2) are using religion as an excuse to further their political desires.

Since: Mar 11

Louisville, KY

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#129274
Oct 13, 2012
 

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Perhaps the horseshoe crab made Jesus very angry all those millions of years ago and that's why he didn't allow them to evolve?:)
Hidingfromyou wrote:
<quoted text>
What's your reasoning here? Why would a crab with a body shape well suited for its environment change? Why would it become intelligent? What selection pressures would push it to be intelligent?
No, Eagle, they did not stop evolving. The horseshoe crab you see today is not the same species as the one in the past. They have speciated several times. The current one evolved around 18 million years ago. Remember? I already posted a link to an article by the world's leading horseshoe crab expert. He said, and I'm paraphrasing here, "that's a malicious untruth."
1) Do you not follow my links b/c you're genuinely not interested in knowing how and what science has evidence for?
2) Are you incapable of learning?
3) Or did you just miss the post?

“There is no god!”

Since: Jun 12

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#129275
Oct 13, 2012
 
preterism wrote:
<quoted text> It wasn't done with God's approval these atrocities you speak of were done by evil people. The devi is very cunning in his ways, as stalin was of the devil in his actions and deeds. This is so ridiculous to say that stalin or hitler were Christians, only your deeds and actions prove you a Christian or, a wolf in sheep's clothing.
the ware christian and what ever you say doesn't change it and the christian churches approved of it all

“I won, I won, I won!!!”

Since: Mar 11

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#129276
Oct 13, 2012
 

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Givemeliberty wrote:
Perhaps but all would have a good time and it beats the hell out of flying planes into buildings.
<quoted text>
I'm right with you there. How does that go again?

Science taught us to build planes. Religion taught us to fly them into buildings.
scouse55

Dymock, UK

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#129277
Oct 13, 2012
 
Quote.....

.......No, individuals with mutations do not evolve. They are individuals born with mutations......

The very basis of the chicken and the egg argument.. proving the egg came first in evolutionary terms.

Bloody good summation in your lengthy submission, hence my just quoting that one sentence.

“I won, I won, I won!!!”

Since: Mar 11

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#129278
Oct 13, 2012
 
scouse55 wrote:
Quote.....
.......No, individuals with mutations do not evolve. They are individuals born with mutations......
The very basis of the chicken and the egg argument.. proving the egg came first in evolutionary terms.
Bloody good summation in your lengthy submission, hence my just quoting that one sentence.
Thank you :)

Sorry for being long. Dave is not super good at understanding concepts, so they have to be explained in an exhaustive manner to him. Even then, he won't understand. But I tried and now you have tried - thanks.

“Michin yeoja”

Since: Oct 10

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#129279
Oct 13, 2012
 
Hidingfromyou wrote:
<quoted text>
I'm right with you there. How does that go again?
Science taught us to build planes. Religion taught us to fly them into buildings.
Gerhard Neumann allowed us to do it with fan jets.

“I won, I won, I won!!!”

Since: Mar 11

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#129280
Oct 13, 2012
 

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Forgive me for this wall of text. I'm going to do what Eage12 and so many other Christians on this thread do - I'm just going to paste something that I can't honestly verify. Unlike them, I freely admit my ignorance on these issues. I'm only pasting it to demonstrate how ridiculous it is for Christians to paste comments they don't understand about science down and subsequently pretend they've made an argument.

That said, here it goes. Jesus never existed. He is a fictional figure:

"There is no contemporary historical record of any kind of Jesus!! No written Roman, Greek or Jewish sources from this time (apart from the gospels) know of any historical Jesus or Christ. The name "Christ" is mentioned in some later texts (Tacitus, Suetonius Pliny d.y.) but then merely as the name of the idol of the Christians' worship (Read what these sources really say here). We don't even know who the writers of the Gospels were, and don't have the original manuscripts themselves either. We just have later copies of copies of copies of copies … of copies of the assumed lost originals. And with each copy the copyist usually felt free to alter details or rewrite whole parts of the manuscript.(We usually don't trust dubious anonymous sources as evidence for anything, do we?)

All the divine aspects of the Jesus figure are "stolen" from earlier similar dying and resurrected godmen, such as Dionysos, Osiris, Hercules, Attis, Mithra, Horus, Zarathustra and others. Actually there are few (if any) things about Jesus that are original at all. Jesus is just the Jewish version of this popular mythic Saviour- character in the Mystery-religions of Antiquity.(See the similarities here).

All the teachings of Jesus are "borrowed" from older sources, for example from the teachings of Buddha. Many of Jesus teachings are almost word for word identical with some of Buddhas sayings (400 years earlier). The so-called "Golden rule" can be found in several earlier pagan Greek (and Jewish) texts. The famous "Sermon on the Mount" was never held by Jesus (of course, since he never existed), but also because it was actually first produced in the second century AD by Christian priests, assembled from what they assumed were sayings of Jesus in different other texts."

Because the Christians on here rarely provide links to their biased source material, neither will I. It's pretty easy to discover though. Just highlight some text and google search it.

:)
:)
:)

“I won, I won, I won!!!”

Since: Mar 11

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#129281
Oct 13, 2012
 

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Some more:

"Note:
Much of the writings and research on the Jesus figure is amazingly biased, vague, tendentious and pervaded with wishful thinking.

One should in general be a bit sceptical to Christian scholars who often (obviously) don't have the necessary distance to their subject and obviously seem to be on a mission to prove the statements in the Bible, no matter what the real evidence say. As Christians they are usually convinced that Jesus did once exist as a real person in the first place, and are just looking for a confirmation."

True to form, I'm going to purposefully misquote my sources now, as RiversideRedneck taught me to do on the "Prove there's a god" thread. Unlike Riverside, I am being honest in telling you that I am deliberately misquoting in order to deceptively support my point. Riverside is fundamentally dishonest, though, so he covers up his manipulations:

"The best-known recent proponents of mythicism are Bible scholar Robert Price, German historian George Wells, mythicist-popularizer Earl Doherty, and historian Richard Carrier...

... scholars such as Paula Fredriksen, Robert Funk and E. P. Sanders hold that much of the material about him in the New Testament should not be taken at face value as it is driven by theological agendas.
Critics skeptical of the existence of a historical Jesus believe that Christian influence and bias (conscious or unconscious) has extended far outside the walls of formal Christianity. For example, atheist activist and Bible scholar Hector Avalos speaks of an "ecclesiastical-academic complex" which he believes has widely contaminated scholarship even in non-Christian academic institutions which nonetheless have a culturally Christian background or roots in religious institutions.
The history of the Christ myth theory can be traced to the French Enlightenment thinkers Constantin-François Volney and Charles François Dupuis in the 1790s. Notable proponents include Bruno Bauer; William Benjamin Smith; John Mackinnon Robertson; Arthur Drews; Paul-Louis Couchoud in the 20th century."

So, in the same manner that creationist Christians on this thread question biological science, based on my 1) ignorance, 2) unfamiliarity with the source material, 3) reference-less history I've provided above and 4) purposeful misquotes, we can determine that Jesus never existed.

Oh, wait, let me state that in their terms "I have proved that Jesus never existed."

There! That sounds a lot like creationist thinking!

Thanks for reading, it was fun :)
:)
:p

“Love much, trust none”

Since: Jul 11

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#129282
Oct 13, 2012
 
Eagle12 wrote:
<quoted text>
In the case of the horseshoe crab. I guarantee you the pressures and it’s environment has changed plenty in 500 million years. Yet it has remained unchanged in 500 million years.....
Nope. The horshoe crab along with many creatures, have not changed because their environment has not changed to the point they needed to.

“Love much, trust none”

Since: Jul 11

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#129283
Oct 13, 2012
 

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RiversideRedneck wrote:
G_O_D, Mark was NOT talking about the Jewish ritual of baptising.....
Sure, they was just taking baths in the Jordan cuz the Romans wouldn't let Jews in their bathhouses.

You are a moron.
Read a friggin book.
Sart with thte entire Bible instead of repeating the bits your misiter reads to you and tells you what they mean.

“Love much, trust none”

Since: Jul 11

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#129284
Oct 13, 2012
 
Gate Keeper 1 wrote:
<quoted text>Really, really. Atheism has killed over 200 million people in the last 90 years alone, exceeding all the Holy Wars combined.
Not sure where you are getting your numbers from BUT between 1940 and 1950 there were at least 16 million people murdered by two individuals who were raised as Catholics. One of whom constantly confirmed his Christian status.

“Love much, trust none”

Since: Jul 11

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#129285
Oct 13, 2012
 
^^^^ make that " between 1930 and 1945" ^^^^^^

“Love much, trust none”

Since: Jul 11

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#129286
Oct 13, 2012
 

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Gate Keeper 1 wrote:
<quoted text>If you only have hate and a polluted mind, why do you even bother coming here?...
We have all been wondering that about you and all your sock puppet minions, Coward Viking.

Cowrad Viking thy name is Legion.

“Love much, trust none”

Since: Jul 11

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#129287
Oct 13, 2012
 

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Gate Keeper 1 wrote:
<quoted text>Is thiis life experience, because this has nothing to do with God?....
It is right out of the Bible you fraud. You can't possibly be a Christian, even the most ignorant Fundie is smarter than you about it.

“Love much, trust none”

Since: Jul 11

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#129288
Oct 13, 2012
 

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Richardfs wrote:
<quoted text>
Another godbot who can not answer a simple question
GateKeeper is just another one of Coward Viking's umpteen socks.

There are two explanations for his insanity:

1. He sucks as a Christian.
2. He suck as a Poe.

In either case, he sucks, which may be why he is so hung up on homosexuality.

“The eye has it...”

Since: May 09

Russell's Teapot

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#129289
Oct 13, 2012
 

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Hidingfromyou wrote:
Some more:
"Note:
Much of the writings and research on the Jesus figure is amazingly biased, vague, tendentious and pervaded with wishful thinking.
One should in general be a bit sceptical to Christian scholars who often (obviously) don't have the necessary distance to their subject and obviously seem to be on a mission to prove the statements in the Bible, no matter what the real evidence say. As Christians they are usually convinced that Jesus did once exist as a real person in the first place, and are just looking for a confirmation."
True to form, I'm going to purposefully misquote my sources now, as RiversideRedneck taught me to do on the "Prove there's a god" thread. Unlike Riverside, I am being honest in telling you that I am deliberately misquoting in order to deceptively support my point. Riverside is fundamentally dishonest, though, so he covers up his manipulations:
"The best-known recent proponents of mythicism are Bible scholar Robert Price, German historian George Wells, mythicist-popularizer Earl Doherty, and historian Richard Carrier...
... scholars such as Paula Fredriksen, Robert Funk and E. P. Sanders hold that much of the material about him in the New Testament should not be taken at face value as it is driven by theological agendas.
Critics skeptical of the existence of a historical Jesus believe that Christian influence and bias (conscious or unconscious) has extended far outside the walls of formal Christianity. For example, atheist activist and Bible scholar Hector Avalos speaks of an "ecclesiastical-academic complex" which he believes has widely contaminated scholarship even in non-Christian academic institutions which nonetheless have a culturally Christian background or roots in religious institutions.
The history of the Christ myth theory can be traced to the French Enlightenment thinkers Constantin-François Volney and Charles François Dupuis in the 1790s. Notable proponents include Bruno Bauer; William Benjamin Smith; John Mackinnon Robertson; Arthur Drews; Paul-Louis Couchoud in the 20th century."
So, in the same manner that creationist Christians on this thread question biological science, based on my 1) ignorance, 2) unfamiliarity with the source material, 3) reference-less history I've provided above and 4) purposeful misquotes, we can determine that Jesus never existed.
Oh, wait, let me state that in their terms "I have proved that Jesus never existed."
There! That sounds a lot like creationist thinking!
Thanks for reading, it was fun :)
:)
:p
Information like this drives LBR nuts.

“cdesign proponentsists”

Since: Jul 09

Pittsburgh, PA

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#129290
Oct 13, 2012
 
Eagle12 wrote:
<quoted text>
Do you believe that bullies are cowards?
That’s a yes or a no answer.
Yes, I do believe that you are a coward. How many times have you tried to act tough on here? LOL!

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