Atheism requires as much faith as religion?

[It aint necessarily so]

preterism wrote:

Can you prove that a creator isn't needed ?

It aint necessarily so wrote:

Not yet. Why would it matter if I could?

preterism wrote:

To know ther truth that you esgerly desire as we all do.

What if we proved that there WERE creators? Why would that matter? We still would know nothing about them or who they were, since they have never told us.

And we still wouldn't worship them, just experience gratitude, feelings I already cultivate for the universe and my inclusion in it.

Worshiping is demeaning.

[lightbeamrider]

Hidingfromyou wrote:

<quoted text>
Oh, I'm sorry, are you a biologist who specializes in abiogensis? Do you even understand the first thing about biology?

What branch deals with Gooses which lays golden eggs? How bout making gold from lead? What about fountain of youth? The odds being better for any of these to happen than abiogenesis.

[Richardfs]

lightbeamrider wrote:

<quoted text> What branch deals with Gooses which lays golden eggs? How bout making gold from lead? What about fountain of youth? The odds being better for any of these to happen than abiogenesis.

Only you could equate science to fairy tales.

[Eagle12]

Hidingfromyou wrote:

<quoted text>
Eagle...the adaptive peak for "shoulder fired missile" is too high for mutation to reach in the spider environment. However, it has been reached in the plant environment (b/c plants, unlike spiders, are large and tough enough to build a system of pressure that can fire a missile).
In nature, animals that fire missiles to capture their prey include:
- frogs and some toads and a few other amphibians
- chameleons (and a few other lizards)
- some fish
- some mollusks
Spiders are pretty small and they have their own weapons that work quite well. Spiders are on an adaptive peak of their own - for them to get off of it, another system would have to be better than theirs. But missile systems involve a lot of mechanics. Evolution simply cannot produce that kind of change - it would involve giving up a functional system for one that doesn't quite work for a few thousand years (while evolution fine tunes it).
That said, large spiders in the tarantula family eject missile weapons as a defense mechanism when large predators try to eat them.
Some spiders throw bolas to capture prey.

Spiders are freaking cool, lol.

[Eagle12]

Just a friendly reminder to all who distain those who believe in God or affiliated with a religious faith. We that believe in God are protected under the United States Constitution. Religious freedom is the cornerstone of freedom.

Wiki:

There are over 450,000 churches in the United States according to Premier Tourism Marketing's website and a few others.

In the United States, freedom of religion is a constitutionally guaranteed right provided in the religion clauses of the First Amendment. Freedom of religion is also closely associated with separation of church and state, a concept advocated by Thomas Jefferson.

The Religious Freedom Restoration Act of 1993, Pub. L. No. 103-141, 107 Stat. 1488 (November 16, 1993), codified at 42 U.S.C.§ 2000bb through 42 U.S.C.§ 2000bb-4 (also known as RFRA), is a 1993 United States federal law aimed at preventing laws that substantially burden a person's free exercise of their religion. The bill was introduced by Howard McKeon of California and Dean Gallo of New Jersey on March 11, 1993.[1] It was held unconstitutional as applied to the states in the City of Boerne v. Flores decision in 1997, which ruled that the RFRA is not a proper exercise of Congress's enforcement power. But it continues to be applied to the federal government, for instance in Gonzales v. O Centro Espirita Beneficente Uniao do Vegetal, because Congress has broad authority to carve out exemptions from federal laws and regulations that it itself has authorized.

[Working for the Lord]

It aint necessarily so wrote:

<quoted text>
<quoted text>
<quoted text>
What if we proved that there WERE creators? Why would that matter? We still would know nothing about them or who they were, since they have never told us.
And we still wouldn't worship them, just experience gratitude, feelings I already cultivate for the universe and my inclusion in it.
Worshiping is demeaning.

The bible tells you everything you have asked for in your above comment. To worship the one that gave us life and life for eternity would be a small token to give to God for all that we have, and when we past over from this life which is so short to a life of eternity is to me worth being a Christian I urge all who haven't been baptized to go to the nearest Church of Christ and get right with God and enjoy a life of happiness and for eternity.

[RiversideRedneck]

It aint necessarily so wrote:

<quoted text>
That may be correct, but homophobia is huge in the American church nevertheless. That's evident in these threads.
<quoted text>
With due respect, I disagree that your homophobia is endogenous. I still believe that you are indoctrinated to feel that way. Your church scapegoats, demeans, dehumanizes and marginalizes gays like it does atheists. Why don't humanists agree with you? From "Affirmations of Humanism" at http://www.secularhumanism.org/index.php... :
"We are concerned with securing justice and fairness in society and with eliminating discrimination and intolerance."
"We attempt to transcend divisive parochial loyalties based on race, religion, gender, nationality, creed, class, sexual orientation, or ethnicity, and strive to work together for the common good of humanity."

Are you indoctrinated to like gays?

[RiversideRedneck]

lightbeamrider wrote:

<quoted text> What branch deals with Gooses which lays golden eggs? How bout making gold from lead? What about fountain of youth? The odds being better for any of these to happen than abiogenesis.

nah... The theory that something can come from nothing makes perfect sense!

no?

[timn17]

Eagle12 wrote:

Just a friendly reminder to all who distain those who believe in God or affiliated with a religious faith. We that believe in God are protected under the United States Constitution. Religious freedom is the cornerstone of freedom.
Wiki:
There are over 450,000 churches in the United States according to Premier Tourism Marketing's website and a few others.
In the United States, freedom of religion is a constitutionally guaranteed right provided in the religion clauses of the First Amendment. Freedom of religion is also closely associated with separation of church and state, a concept advocated by Thomas Jefferson.
The Religious Freedom Restoration Act of 1993, Pub. L. No. 103-141, 107 Stat. 1488 (November 16, 1993), codified at 42 U.S.C.§ 2000bb through 42 U.S.C.§ 2000bb-4 (also known as RFRA), is a 1993 United States federal law aimed at preventing laws that substantially burden a person's free exercise of their religion. The bill was introduced by Howard McKeon of California and Dean Gallo of New Jersey on March 11, 1993.[1] It was held unconstitutional as applied to the states in the City of Boerne v. Flores decision in 1997, which ruled that the RFRA is not a proper exercise of Congress's enforcement power. But it continues to be applied to the federal government, for instance in Gonzales v. O Centro Espirita Beneficente Uniao do Vegetal, because Congress has broad authority to carve out exemptions from federal laws and regulations that it itself has authorized.

I don't think many people actively disdain religious people, and I personally have no problem with a personal belief in god.

I do, however, take issue with those who make it their personal mission to spread their belief - a behavior that is highly encouraged in certain religions, christianity being one of them. And I am especially against those who try to impose the archaic notions of their religion on science and social policy. If someone wants to think that we are magical creations and that evolution is false, or if someone wants to think that gays shouldn't have equal rights, that's fine so long as they remain personal beliefs. They are stupid personal beliefs, but they are personal nonetheless. It's when people make it their mission to impose their beliefs on everyone else that it becomes a problem.

[timn17]

preterism wrote:

<quoted text> The bible tells you everything you have asked for in your above comment. To worship the one that gave us life and life for eternity would be a small token to give to God for all that we have, and when we past over from this life which is so short to a life of eternity is to me worth being a Christian I urge all who haven't been baptized to go to the nearest Church of Christ and get right with God and enjoy a life of happiness and for eternity.

You aren't the sharpest tool in the shed, are you?

Why would an all powerful creator require demeaning worship from it's creations? That sounds kind of petty.

[Happy Lesbo]

It aint necessarily so wrote:

<quoted text>Why don't humanists agree with you? From "Affirmations of Humanism" at http://www.secularhumanism.org/index.php... :
"We are concerned with securing justice and fairness in society and with eliminating discrimination and intolerance."
"We attempt to transcend divisive parochial loyalties based on race, religion, gender, nationality, creed, class, sexual orientation, or ethnicity, and strive to work together for the common good of humanity."

.. we have strayed off the path that our forefathers paved. Consider these quotes:

John F. Kennedy, "...(I) do not accept instructions from the Pope or the National Council of Churches or any other ecclesiastic source, no religious body should seek to impose its will directly or indirectly upon the general populace ......

Mitt Romney, "Freedom requires religion just as religion requires freedom," explaining that freedom allows one to "commune with God ... and, Americans acknowledge that liberty is a gift of God."

.. this is the effect the Religious Right, a huge voting block, has had on politics ..

[RiversideRedneck]

HL - Liberty IS a gift from God.
Funny that you quote Mitt. Why not Obama?
"McCane hasn't asked me about my Muslim religion"...

[Happy Lesbo]

RiversideRedneck wrote:

HL - Liberty IS a gift from God.
Funny that you quote Mitt. Why not Obama?
"McCane hasn't asked me about my Muslim religion"...

.. Obama probably said something similar. Liberty is a prize your progenitors died for, not a gift from god. It's slowly eroding ..

[RiversideRedneck]

The only way liberty will erode is if people continiue to elect politicians that are hell-bent on ruining America & making us more in debt.

[Hidingfromyou]

Hidingfromyou wrote:

Oh, I'm sorry, are you a biologist who specializes in abiogensis? Do you even understand the first thing about biology?

lightbeamrider wrote:

<quoted text> What branch deals with Gooses which lays golden eggs? How bout making gold from lead? What about fountain of youth? The odds being better for any of these to happen than abiogenesis.

So, no, you aren't a biologist, don't have any training in it, don't understand the first thing about biochemistry and yet make authoritative statements on how biology works.

Lightbeamer, you are fundamentally dishonest.

[lightbeamrider]

Hidingfromyou wrote:

No, right? Doesn't your religion preach against lies and deception?

yes.

When you claim authority to speak on matters that you do not understand, have no training in whatsoever, you are being dishonest. There are no two ways about it.
Stop being dishonest.

Never claimed authority. You have to be trained to understand abiogenesis? Only those trained? Isn't that like a cult? A secret society? You on the other hand speak on the Bible and when i asked you to read Exodus 1 you replied to post it and you will. Does that mean you do not even own a Bible? Does that mean you have no training on the Bible? Not one Theology class? My beliefs also speaks about hypocrisy. If i am dishonest it has nothing to do with rejection of abiogenesis or self created universe. One can reject these propositions on logic alone.

[Hidingfromyou]

RiversideRedneck wrote:

HL - Liberty IS a gift from God.
Funny that you quote Mitt. Why not Obama?
"McCane hasn't asked me about my Muslim religion"...

Ridiculous. Liberty is a freedom developed over centuries of hard work by humans! You only have it because of the society you live in - it favors laws over absolute rulers.

Your Christian religion persecuted people for millennia! It fought tooth and nail to keep freedoms from people - it still does! Look at how the Catholic church prevented the legal recourse of the victims of pedophilia, how fundamentalist Christians in America attack the education system at every turn.

Organized Christianity is not a friend of freedom, not even slightly - and neither is the God of their Bible.

When you write stuff like the above, you are making humans lessor beings. We're not. We built our civilizations up. We struggled to produce complicated legal systems that work to ensure people's freedoms and rights - these are hard won battles that took place of hundreds of years.

Do not diminish them by claiming God did it. That's repulsively wrong.

[lightbeamrider]

Hidingfromyou wrote:

<quoted text>
<quoted text>
So, no, you aren't a biologist, don't have any training in it, don't understand the first thing about biochemistry and yet make authoritative statements on how biology works.
Lightbeamer, you are fundamentally dishonest.

Is it all as good for you as it is for me?

[Tide with Beach]

RiversideRedneck wrote:

The only way liberty will erode is if people continiue to elect politicians that are hell-bent on ruining America & making us more in debt.

Do you really think there are politicians in office that want America to fail?

Isn't there a better way to make your point?

[Hidingfromyou]

lightbeamrider wrote:

yes.
<quoted text> Never claimed authority. You have to be trained to understand abiogenesis? Only those trained? Isn't that like a cult? A secret society? You on the other hand speak on the Bible and when i asked you to read Exodus 1 you replied to post it and you will. Does that mean you do not even own a Bible? Does that mean you have no training on the Bible? Not one Theology class? My beliefs also speaks about hypocrisy. If i am dishonest it has nothing to do with rejection of abiogenesis or self created universe. One can reject these propositions on logic alone.

Yes, you have to be trained to understand abiogenesis. Do you understand how organic molecules function in oxygen-free atmospheres? I don't. Do you understand how organic molecules are even formed? How do they bind? How long can they be before they're unstable? What environments allow them to be longer? Under what conditions do nucleic acids form? What are the likely precursors to RNA and why?

You're not even remotely qualified to make claims about abiogenesis. Doing so is dishonest.

I am qualified to read archaeology. I'm trained in their methodologies and have a solid foundation in the basics of their field. So, yes, I can read the work done in Bible archaeology and take an informed side. If I read their research papers, I could understand what methods they used and the limitations of knowledge they can claim.

No, I don't have a Bible. I've read the Bible 4 times. I've moved between countries so many times, I stopped lugging it around. The Bible is freely available on the Internet, in all kinds of translations. If you want me to read a specific part of it, post a link to it.

Unlike you, I do not hold the Bible as any kind of authority. I really don't care to remember one religion's myths and tales. It's totally worthless in my life, has nothing to do with my research, has nothing valuable to say about anything I do. So why would I have one?