Atheism requires as much faith as religion?

There are 20 comments on the Webbunny tumblelog story from Jul 18, 2009, titled Atheism requires as much faith as religion?. In it, Webbunny tumblelog reports that:

Atheism requires as much faith as religion? bearvspuma : The only problem with this rationalization is that ita s assuming all athiests are so because theya re intelligent in the ways of science and reasoning and all people that believe in a form of god are unintelligent.

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“Why does my ignorance”

Since: Mar 11

justify your deity?

#129147 Oct 12, 2012
Double Fine wrote:
<quoted text>
Nope.
We don't have a bias againts people based on their race, their religion, or who they choose to go to bed with at night
even if that person is (put name of person here)

:)

“Think&Care”

Since: Oct 07

Location hidden

#129148 Oct 12, 2012
Gate Keeper 1 wrote:
St. Thomas Aquinas (1225-1274) spelled out five proofs from reason for the existence of God. Briefly summarized, they are:
1.Motion. What is in motion must be put in motion by another and that by another again. This cannot go on to infinity. Therefore, there must be at the head of the series of movers, a being that is itself unmoved and that is the source of all movement. This prime mover is God.
2.Causation. This proof depends on the self-evident principles that nothing can exist without a sufficient reason for its existence and that every effect must have a cause. It is impossible for a thing to be the efficient cause of itself for, if it were, it would be prior to itself which is impossible. Since every effect must have a cause, that cause in turn must be the effect of another cause, and so on. But the process cannot go on to infinity. There must be a first cause that is not caused by anything else and that contains in itself the sufficient reason for its existence. That first cause is God.
3.Necessity or contingency.This proof, too, depends on the self-evident principle of sufficient reason, that is, that whatever exists must have a sufficient reason for its existence.
If there was ever a time when there was nothing, there could never be anything. From nothing, nothing can come. To explain the existence of beings that are unnecessary, that at one time did not exist, there must have always existed a necessary being, from whom beings that began to be received their existence. The existence of all other beings is contingent on the existence of this necessary being. This necessary being is God.
4.Perfection.When we perceive objects or people, we judge that they are more or less good, beautiful, kind, just, etc. But this presupposes an absolute standard of perfection with which the less perfect are compared. This absolute standard of perfection is God.
5.Design. Whatever exhibits marks of design must be the work of an intelligent being. Nobody could possibly believe that his wrist watch just "fell together." On the contrary, it was obviously designed by an intelligent designer. How much more so with the human body, the world and the universe. They all give evidence of an intelligent designer. The order of the universe, the workings of the human eye, etc., cannot be the product of chance or of some blind necessity in the nature of things. Their intelligent designer is God.
http://catholiceducation.org/articles/apologe...
And Kant showed how all were faulty.

#1 assumes Aristotelian physics, which we know is incorrect.

#2 is based on causality, which we know fails at the quantum level. It also assumes that the process cannot go on to infinity. And, finally, it only shows that there are uncaused causes, not that there is a first cause (there could, for example, be many uncaused causes).

#3 is based on the flawed philosophy of necessary and contingent existence. Again, an Aristotelian viewpoint which is known to be wrong.

#4 assumes that any comparison is against a standard. This is also false. For example, we can compare the size of numbers without there being a largest number. It also assumes the idea of 'perfection' is well defined, which it isn't.

#5 is based on the idea that complexity must be produced by an intelligence, which we again know is incorrect.

Sorry, but your medieval 'proofs' simply don't hold the water you want to carry.

“Think&Care”

Since: Oct 07

Location hidden

#129149 Oct 12, 2012
Gate Keeper 1 wrote:
<quoted text>One argument against evolution and the complexity of so-called evolved humans is found in a simple grain of rice. Of particular interest is that the rice genome may be far more complex than previously thought and that the rice genome contains between 42,000 and 63,000 genes whereas the human genome is estimated to contain between a mere 23,000 genes.
Evolutionist frequently try to measure how advanced and superior a species is by its complexity and, implicitly, by the size of its genome, new research indicates that rice is a more advanced, and perhaps even a superior, species than humanity?
Or is it simply the case that superiority is not a matter of complexity nor of the relative size of the species' genome? In fact, when we study of grain of rice, we discover that unless the evolutionist claim that the rice evolved from humans, there is a major flaw. So, evolutionist are forced to either abandon their lie, or say that evolution is not a matter of complexity which is a domino to all of evolution.
You make some assumptions which are false:

1. That evolution necessarily leads to more complexity. Depending on the environment, it may produce simplicity.

2. That superiority is a relevant concept in biology. Evolution is about survivability in an environment.

3. That comparing complexity, especially on widely divergent developmental lines, says anything at all.

Yes, pants are complex living things. In many ways they are more complex than animals. But if you want to see some *real* complexity, look at fungi.

Perhaps you should give up your feelings of 'superiority' and actually look at the world around you. Yes, we know your religion builds up that feeling, and makes you feel *so special*, but it is a lie.

“Think&Care”

Since: Oct 07

Location hidden

#129150 Oct 12, 2012
lightbeamrider wrote:
<quoted text> yes.
<quoted text> Never claimed authority. You have to be trained to understand abiogenesis? Only those trained? Isn't that like a cult? A secret society?
No, it is not a secret society. The training is widely and publicly available. No oaths of secrecy are required to learn it. You simply have to do the background work.

And yes, to understand technical material requires training. In the case of abiogenesis, a strong training in biochemistry is clearly required, but also geology (to know about the conditions on the early earth), some astrophysics (to know the chemicals available), and a good deal of regular biology (to know the systems as they exist now and probably existed in the past). If you don't have that training, you cannot talk sensibly about the topic.
You on the other hand speak on the Bible and when i asked you to read Exodus 1 you replied to post it and you will. Does that mean you do not even own a Bible? Does that mean you have no training on the Bible? Not one Theology class? My beliefs also speaks about hypocrisy. If i am dishonest it has nothing to do with rejection of abiogenesis or self created universe. One can reject these propositions on logic alone.
Theology starts with the conclusion that the Bible is correct and that a deity exists. Every different sect has a different theology. That alone shows it isn't an area of knowledge, but is, instead, a matter of opinion and desire.

Yes, read the Bible, please. But as you do so, put it into the historical and archaeological context. Compare it to the other texts of that time and area. For that matter, compare it to other texts from other cultures. If you do so, you will realize it is the writings of a self-absorbed culture (most are) amidst greater cultures which it didn't understand and trying to match its superstition with the realities of the day. This is hardly unique.
Imhotep

Julian, NC

#129151 Oct 12, 2012
Todays problems
Yes my slaves, prayers are delayed.

I am busy, Mohammad was having a emotional affair with Jesus. He is jealous of the recently discovered hidden wife.

And there are rumors circulating Joey Greco's 'Cheaters' is featuring this woman. Slaves have no shame.

Satan is booked solid handling Bishop Willard

I am pleased at his progress.
Alas. Satan is my only 'creation' success.
He has requested Kolob, as a perk.

Really, what is a god to do?

My slaves are rioting, my dilithium crystals have been depleted,

I desperately want another flood but can only afford Global warming.

Is it any mystery my name spelled backwards is Dog?

Mom could have done better!
'Sue' would be good.

Omg (dad) this one really makes me mad.

Which one of us do they mean?

I am the youngest, maybe Mohammad but he smells funny and I've repeatedly warned him about the odor of BBQ on his robes.

My problems are many my faithful slaves

Virtually everything I create... Dies!

Zeus is always teasing me, says I need 'The Force' and a more robust training schedule.
Other gods also torment me daily about this.

What do they think, I'm made of savoiurs?

You should see the road apples Pegasus drops <omg>

My Martyrs are busy with their virgins, the virgins have petitioned Aphrodite for a union.

It is chaos here my slaves :(

Toilets are backed up, waiting on Joe the Plummer.

Due to finances planned raptures must be suspended indefinitely.

I had to send the ghost to calm my youthful son down, since his 1st massacre, he has been anxious to return.

“Love much, trust none”

Since: Jul 11

There

#129152 Oct 12, 2012
Hidingfromyou wrote:
<quoted text>
NO! You heretic! Odin is the Father of the Gods!
It's Wodan you Scandinavian Heretic!

Since: Sep 08

Westcliffe, CO

#129153 Oct 12, 2012
polymath257 wrote:
<quoted text>
No, it is not a secret society. The training is widely and publicly available. No oaths of secrecy are required to learn it. You simply have to do the background work.
And yes, to understand technical material requires training. In the case of abiogenesis, a strong training in biochemistry is clearly required, but also geology (to know about the conditions on the early earth), some astrophysics (to know the chemicals available), and a good deal of regular biology (to know the systems as they exist now and probably existed in the past). If you don't have that training, you cannot talk sensibly about the topic.
<quoted text>
Theology starts with the conclusion that the Bible is correct and that a deity exists. Every different sect has a different theology. That alone shows it isn't an area of knowledge, but is, instead, a matter of opinion and desire.
Yes, read the Bible, please. But as you do so, put it into the historical and archaeological context. Compare it to the other texts of that time and area. For that matter, compare it to other texts from other cultures. If you do so, you will realize it is the writings of a self-absorbed culture (most are) amidst greater cultures which it didn't understand and trying to match its superstition with the realities of the day. This is hardly unique.
Modern science you are referring to is a logic and definitions you are trained to follow and think in. It is not a "natural" progression of thought and logic. They churn thousands of these robots out every years.

Do not confuse that with intelligence and the ability to think in the abstract other than the level necessary for progressing through that system.

It is a "school" of thought.

The limitations of this school is the kneejerk reaction to anything proposed that does not follow the script, as opposed to considering such things. Just like any religion can. Both religion and science get modified over time.

“Love much, trust none”

Since: Jul 11

There

#129154 Oct 12, 2012
So you are recommending the "hallicinate and babble" approach to reality, right ?
Dave Nelson wrote:
<quoted text>
Modern science you are referring to is a logic and definitions you are trained to follow and think in. It is not a "natural" progression of thought and logic. They churn thousands of these robots out every years.
Do not confuse that with intelligence and the ability to think in the abstract other than the level necessary for progressing through that system.
It is a "school" of thought.
The limitations of this school is the kneejerk reaction to anything proposed that does not follow the script, as opposed to considering such things. Just like any religion can. Both religion and science get modified over time.

Since: Feb 08

Tampa, FL

#129155 Oct 12, 2012
Eagle12 wrote:
At the same time the work place is not a platform for them to market their lifestyle. In fact they need to keep their lifestyle personal. I donít want to know if someone is gay. Itís none of my business to start with.
So, to be completely fair, you're saying that straight people should never talk about their girlfriends/boyfriends or their wives/husbands, so that we won't know that they are straight.

Right?

“Why does my ignorance”

Since: Mar 11

justify your deity?

#129156 Oct 12, 2012
G_O_D wrote:
<quoted text>
It's Wodan you Scandinavian Heretic!
Ack! Mother, I am slain!

“Why does my ignorance”

Since: Mar 11

justify your deity?

#129157 Oct 12, 2012
G_O_D wrote:
So you are recommending the "hallicinate and babble" approach to reality, right ?
<quoted text>
Well, you summed up Dave in a sentence.

Since: Jun 07

Location hidden

#129162 Oct 12, 2012
Gate Keeper 1 wrote:
<quoted text>I love it, Hiding is getting busted from all sides. <split>
Another hallucination from the god liars.

Since: Jun 07

Location hidden

#129163 Oct 12, 2012
Gate Keeper 1 wrote:
<quoted text>Forever your mind is worth, not much, pnats are not complex things. If you want to argue simplicity as a motion in a time continum from past to future, then you refute evolution. The question is not whether simplicity exists within complex continums, but how it effects your evolution myth theory.
One argument against evolution and the complexity of so-called evolved humans is found in a simple grain of rice. Of particular interest is that the rice genome may be far more complex than previously thought and that the rice genome contains between 42,000 and 63,000 genes whereas the human genome is estimated to contain between a mere 23,000 genes.
Evolutionist frequently try to measure how advanced and superior a species is by its complexity and, implicitly, by the size of its genome, new research indicates that rice is a more advanced, and perhaps even a superior, species than humanity?
Or is it simply the case that superiority is not a matter of complexity nor of the relative size of the species' genome? In fact, when we study of grain of rice, we discover that unless the evolutionist claim that the rice evolved from humans, there is a major flaw. So, evolutionist are forced to either abandon their lie, or say that evolution is not a matter of complexity which is a domino to all of evolution.
I will be discussing, singularity, Black holes, quantum graavity and how Einstein's theory of relativity breaks down and how 1/0 is infinity and destroys physics when gravity no longer functions in the Black Hole and therefore puts the Big Bang or expansion of the universe theory into a quantum upheaval. By the way, scientists have never observed or seen a black hole.
People that doubt Evolution are idiots. This is proven fact.

“Why does my ignorance”

Since: Mar 11

justify your deity?

#129164 Oct 12, 2012
Gate Keeper 1 wrote:
<quoted text>I love it, Hiding is getting busted from all sides. <split>
hahahahahahahaa!!!

How can you be this ignorant and stupid?!? How is it possible??? How can you not understand G_O_D's joke???

Duuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuh!!!!!!!!

Did you formerly try to shoot yourself in the head and survive the insult? Is most of your brain missing? I ask, only out of curiosity. It's not every day you find someone so thoughtless as to be mistaken for a stone.

Oh! I know! You are on reserpine. Sorry, my bad. Good luck with that.

“Love much, trust none”

Since: Jul 11

There

#129165 Oct 12, 2012
Gate Keeper 1 wrote:
<quoted text>I love it, Hiding is getting busted from all sides. <split>
Shut up pagan!

Jupiter in a yamulke is a myth for old women!

ROFLMAO

“Love much, trust none”

Since: Jul 11

There

#129166 Oct 12, 2012
Hidingfromyou wrote:
<quoted text>
hahahahahahahaa!!!
How can you be this ignorant and stupid?!? How is it possible??? How can you not understand G_O_D's joke???
Duuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuh!!!!!!!!
Did you formerly try to shoot yourself in the head and survive the insult? Is most of your brain missing? I ask, only out of curiosity. It's not every day you find someone so thoughtless as to be mistaken for a stone.
Oh! I know! You are on reserpine. Sorry, my bad. Good luck with that.
The Sock Viking had a great thought once...but it died of loneliness.

If Sock Viking had another brain he would be a half-wit.

One day a thought went trough Sock Viking's head...there was nothing there to stop it.

Sock Viking's doctors gave him a brain scan but they didn't find anything.

ROFLMAO

Since: Sep 08

Westcliffe, CO

#129167 Oct 12, 2012
G_O_D wrote:
So you are recommending the "hallicinate and babble" approach to reality, right ?
<quoted text>
Not at all. It isn't working for your type, as evinced by the quality of arguments and postings you do. Constant reference to what "they" say, and little if any evidence of individual thought. Gee, you guys can't even hallucinate on your own. So you just babble in chorus, reading from the Grand Books of Holy Hallucinations..

Since: Sep 10

Arcadia, CA

#129168 Oct 12, 2012
Dave Nelson wrote:
<quoted text>
Not at all. It isn't working for your type, as evinced by the quality of arguments and postings you do. Constant reference to what "they" say, and little if any evidence of individual thought. Gee, you guys can't even hallucinate on your own. So you just babble in chorus, reading from the Grand Books of Holy Hallucinations..
It's worse to be a coward, like you Dave.

“In the beginning God Created..”

Since: Feb 12

Southern Illinois

#129169 Oct 12, 2012
Hidingfromyou wrote:
<quoted text>
Yes, Eagle, gay is a lifestyle choice. People one day wake up and think "I want to be openly mocked during my elementary and high school, then denied access to marriage in my adulthood and hated by unreasonable people." Then they just amazingly change their sexuality. I guess they want to be discriminated against, depressed and enjoy higher suicide rates in their club b/c people tell them they are wrong.
But, no, Eagle, creationist "Christians" are science deniers. Evolution is the framework theory of all the biological sciences. To deny it is to deny biological science. To deny the Big Bang and physics models of the universe is to deny science (something the Catholics don't do! Unreal, right!).
Not all Christians are literal creationists, though. The majority don't need to force fit their God into a world not supported by the evidence science has uncovered. Some of these Christians are scientists.
Mormons are nice. I like them. When they came to my door in the US, they asked if they could do my dishes. What a treat! Here in Japan, they are known as liars, though. They promise to provide "free English lessons" to draw people into their church - you can guess what happens then. Carrying out this "business model" has led to them being almost universally despised in Japan.
Sometimes they talk to me. When they find out I speak English, wow, are they happy! Then they get to hear about my atheist views and how rude I find them being in my culture, trying to change us. I'm not a super nice person when my private space is invaded at a train station by those promoting religion and lies (re: English lessons).
Atheists have never walked up do your door, right? I can't imagine going to your house and saying "hey, I'd like to talk to you about giving up your cherished beliefs."
(it's worth mentioning that here, this thread, is listed in the atheist forum, but I see it as neutral ground, where we can banter - so here, you are open game! mwahahahahaha)
I tend to believe gays are born that way in some circumstances. Other circumstances I believe they are shaped by their environment. Thatís just my observation.

Your right atheist just donít show up at the front door, sort of. They are much more subtle. They use Schools & Universities as a platform. Then thereíre the icons that put their message into print and sell their message.

Magazines, books, college professors, comedians, signs, all have used the print media to promote their message of atheism. Iím like you and others in that I donít like my space being violated by personal bids to buy or accept something.

Usually when someone is trying to sell you something by approaching you without an invitation. They are running or promoting a scam. No matter how good it sounds itís probably a scam. Unless itís the Girl Scouts selling cookies. Their cookies are worth buying, lol.

“H-o-o-o-o-o-o-ld on thar!”

Since: Sep 08

The Borderland of Sol

#129170 Oct 12, 2012
Hidingfromyou wrote:
<quoted text>
Ack! Mother, I am slain!
"...and Fortinbras, knee-deep in Danes,
Lived happy ever after..."

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