Atheism requires as much faith as religion?

There are 239092 comments on the Webbunny tumblelog story from Jul 18, 2009, titled Atheism requires as much faith as religion?. In it, Webbunny tumblelog reports that:

Atheism requires as much faith as religion? bearvspuma : The only problem with this rationalization is that ita s assuming all athiests are so because theya re intelligent in the ways of science and reasoning and all people that believe in a form of god are unintelligent.

Join the discussion below, or Read more at Webbunny tumblelog.

Since: Sep 08

Westcliffe, CO

#128871 Oct 10, 2012
scaritual wrote:
<quoted text>What I would say, what I will say is the only scientific proof in the story is that Alexander was in a coma, due to an infection of the cerebral cortex. That is all that can be verified.
<quoted text> I think he wants to sell books.
<quoted text> Or, nothing happened during the coma, since there was no higher function brain activity. Whatever it is he remembers could be from just before the coma, after the coma, or a dream afterwards. He mentions that he wrote things down for days and weeks after.
What if he had some bizarre hallucinatory stage as he came out of the coma or close to death state and he recalled the hallucination over the next few days, now it's developed into an NDE, when it was just a brain in *kickstart* mode?
What if that is what every NDE is?
What I just mentioned is just as valid a hypothesis as the NDE is.
<quoted text> For now, I agree.
Who knows what we'll be able to determine in the next 10-50 years?
<quoted text> That and the cocktail of antibiotics fighting the infection in his cortex, and other drugs used to maintain body functions(electrolytes, nutrition etc...). I'm sure he was hooked up to all sorts of equipment, IV's, and other apparatus.
<quoted text> Yeah, NDE's do vary, and when they talk about the "core experience". There are a total of 7 components of the "core experience, and here's the thing, you need only have 1 of those out of the 7 to be classified as having a "core experience(Unless they've changed criteria).
This is my opinion — that doesn't help the case of NDE proponents.
There should be a minimum number of the "core experiences" in order to qualify.
<quoted text> Yeah, and guess what, Dave? It doesn't bother me to die. I agree, I'd prefer to not have an oak tree fall on me and be crushed, in pain for 5 hours, or linger on in a hospital bed and broken leading up to my demise.
My eventual death does not worry me at all.
<quoted text> Or maybe not.
To say you have to go through a brush with death(which I have), and experience an NDE(which I haven't) in order to not fear death is pure conjecture.
When in a NDE your body is shut off. You are in a trauma. You don't feel a thing. I believe he related he was unresponsive. There is a difference between that and when your body is still communicating and you feel it. There is a difference between dodging a bullet or being hurt and still functioning, and being totally incapacitated and still conscious.

Each experience varies, but the fact is you have a detached consciousness. There may be repair work going on in other places of the brain. The memories may be a result of sensations and activity that manifest as memories, or dreams as you say. From what I gather in his experience under normal medical understanding he was out of it. Seven days.

It is not something you can discount just because you want to believe so. Such events have been going on for eons.

As I have said before, if you are dying, it is better to have something to wait for or do and then just go to sleep, than it is not going to sleep and having nothing to do or place to go to. That is where I was.

Since: Sep 08

Westcliffe, CO

#128872 Oct 10, 2012
It aint necessarily so wrote:
<quoted text>
I don't believe that. I believe that you were made to think that way. And unlike racial bigotry, which roots are in the xenophobia that nature programmed into us - it's best for ducks, for example, to feel at ease only with other ducks, and to fear nonducks like foxes - there is only one source of homophobia: theism.
Every anti-gay bigot learned that hate from the Bible or the Qur'an, or from somebody who learned it there. Cultures lacking this teaching still fear neighboring tribes, but don't hate their gay brothers and sisters.
Read the entire article.

Since: Jul 10

Location hidden

#128873 Oct 10, 2012
timn17 wrote:
<quoted text>You are making several assumptions here, with the general theme being that you automatically assume that anything that exists must have had a creator.
There is simply no evidence for that, so to pose questions such as "who created the first two people" is nonsensical - as you are skipping right over the assumption implied by your question - that there is a creator of some sort in the first place.
Can you prove that a creator isn't needed ? You think with the knowledge and wisdom you have as a human being but you cannot create anything you see or don't see. Your wisdom is limited to what you see and don't see as God's wisdom and knowledge is beyond our ability to think as he does and that's exactly what he tells us in Isaiah 55: 8-11

For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater:

So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.
Anon

Lakewood, OH

#128874 Oct 10, 2012
scaritual wrote:
<quoted text>What I would say, what I will say is the only scientific proof in the story is that Alexander was in a coma, due to an infection of the cerebral cortex. That is all that can be verified.
<quoted text> I think he wants to sell books.
<quoted text> Or, nothing happened during the coma, since there was no higher function brain activity. Whatever it is he remembers could be from just before the coma, after the coma, or a dream afterwards. He mentions that he wrote things down for days and weeks after.
What if he had some bizarre hallucinatory stage as he came out of the coma or close to death state and he recalled the hallucination over the next few days, now it's developed into an NDE, when it was just a brain in *kickstart* mode?
What if that is what every NDE is?
What I just mentioned is just as valid a hypothesis as the NDE is.
<quoted text> For now, I agree.
Who knows what we'll be able to determine in the next 10-50 years?
<quoted text> That and the cocktail of antibiotics fighting the infection in his cortex, and other drugs used to maintain body functions(electrolytes, nutrition etc...). I'm sure he was hooked up to all sorts of equipment, IV's, and other apparatus.
<quoted text> Yeah, NDE's do vary, and when they talk about the "core experience". There are a total of 7 components of the "core experience, and here's the thing, you need only have 1 of those out of the 7 to be classified as having a "core experience(Unless they've changed criteria).
This is my opinion — that doesn't help the case of NDE proponents.
There should be a minimum number of the "core experiences" in order to qualify.
<quoted text> Yeah, and guess what, Dave? It doesn't bother me to die. I agree, I'd prefer to not have an oak tree fall on me and be crushed, in pain for 5 hours, or linger on in a hospital bed and broken leading up to my demise.
My eventual death does not worry me at all.
<quoted text> Or maybe not.
To say you have to go through a brush with death(which I have), and experience an NDE(which I haven't) in order to not fear death is pure conjecture.
His book is entitled "Proof of Heaven" and it's in publication. With the Newsweek intro, he's likely to make some serious money. Hey, if you can market your delusions and profit from them, more power to ya. Feed the suckers what they want.

Since: Feb 08

Tampa, FL

#128875 Oct 10, 2012
Anon wrote:
<quoted text>
His book is entitled "Proof of Heaven" and it's in publication. With the Newsweek intro, he's likely to make some serious money. Hey, if you can market your delusions and profit from them, more power to ya. Feed the suckers what they want.
Yup.

http://gawker.com/5949892/newsweek-cover-stor...

“The eye has it...”

Since: May 09

Russell's Teapot

#128876 Oct 10, 2012
Dave Nelson wrote:
When in a NDE your body is shut off. You are in a trauma. You don't feel a thing. I believe he related he was unresponsive.
Any injury, that creates an unconscious state, can leave the body in such a condition. You are not aware of what is going on around you, nor do you feel pain etc...

Anesthesia in ancient times(and not too distant in the past), sometimes meant a mallet blow to the head. In the absence of an intoxicant etc...
Dave Nelson wrote:
There is a difference between that and when your body is still communicating and you feel it.
One is conscious, the other is unconscious.
Dave Nelson wrote:
There is a difference between dodging a bullet or being hurt and still functioning, and being totally incapacitated and still conscious.
Agreed.
Dave Nelson wrote:
Each experience varies, but the fact is you have a detached consciousness.
No, that is an assumption. It isn't fact. That is anecdotal evidence, not fact.
Dave Nelson wrote:
There may be repair work going on in other places of the brain. The memories may be a result of sensations and activity that manifest as memories, or dreams as you say.
Sure. Even in a unconscious state, the autonomous systems are still functioning, or possibly functioning in a reduced capacity.

Here's a thought; What if those autonomous systems centered in the brain have an awareness or consciousness we aren't aware of at this point in medical science?

That could explain everything people associate with the NDE.
Dave Nelson wrote:
From what I gather in his experience under normal medical understanding he was out of it. Seven days.
That was my understanding, too. No measurable brain activity. According to the article, the Doctors were considering cessation of treatment it was so complete. The outlook wasn't favorable.
Dave Nelson wrote:
It is not something you can discount just because you want to believe so.
Believing it to be so doesn't make it fact, either.

It isn't that I think, since there is no proof or fact attached to the NDE, that it must be impossible.

I don't attach a value of absolute validity to the NDE, since there is no proof. There is a difference in that position.

There is no verification of fact attached to NDE's.

NDE's consist of anecdotal stories, that's all.

Additionally, there is no peer reviewed scientific research conducted concerning NDE's.

Lots of books about the NDE, that sell well, and that's it to my knowledge.

Maybe you know of something that I don't concerning research surrounding the NDE. Please provide it if you do.
Dave Nelson wrote:
Such events have been going on for eons.
You mean people relating such "near death" stories and assuming those to be a glimpse of an afterlife. Yeah.

That doesn't mean they represent a reality. I'm looking at this objectively.
Dave Nelson wrote:
As I have said before, if you are dying, it is better to have something to wait for or do and then just go to sleep, than it is not going to sleep and having nothing to do or place to go to. That is where I was.
In your perception, I get that.

Some people do not report any event, some people report an event and do not see it as an "afterlife" at all, and those are just a few of the phenomena associated with a NDE. There are numerous variations and of those, not all represent an afterllife.

I see that as a compelling evidence right there.

It still isn't proof or established fact, however.

“The eye has it...”

Since: May 09

Russell's Teapot

#128877 Oct 10, 2012
Anon wrote:
<quoted text>
His book is entitled "Proof of Heaven" and it's in publication. With the Newsweek intro, he's likely to make some serious money. Hey, if you can market your delusions and profit from them, more power to ya. Feed the suckers what they want.
Yeah, and many of those books are written by Doctors, people in the medical industry and related fields. For some people, that imparts a seeming validity to the book.

"A doctor wrote it, it must really mean something!"

It simply means you were more inclined to buy the book and believe it.

That's it.

I agree, if they can make money selling the book, good deal.

Since: Jul 10

Location hidden

#128878 Oct 10, 2012
You spend your whole life thinking there's no God instead of studying to see if there is a God. You say when you die that you simply cease to exsist and that's the end of awareness of life as you knew when alive. Death isn't a on and off switch as some desire to believe for various reasons. You have a soul which lives forever, where depends on you. You were given life to choose from a life with God or without, that's your two and only choices.

“Life may be sweeter for this”

Since: Nov 08

Fennario

#128879 Oct 10, 2012
Dave Nelson wrote:
Read the entire article.
What article? This is the posts I answered:

RiversideRedneck wrote: I accept that they are gays, but not what they do, if that makes any sense. I don't like gays. I never have & never will. If that makes me a bigot, so be it. I was born that way.
http://www.topix.com/forum/religion/atheism/T...

“Life may be sweeter for this”

Since: Nov 08

Fennario

#128880 Oct 10, 2012
preterism wrote:
Can you prove that a creator isn't needed ?
Not yet.

Why would it matter if I could?

Since: Sep 08

Westcliffe, CO

#128881 Oct 10, 2012
It aint necessarily so wrote:
<quoted text>
What article? This is the posts I answered:
RiversideRedneck wrote: I accept that they are gays, but not what they do, if that makes any sense. I don't like gays. I never have & never will. If that makes me a bigot, so be it. I was born that way.
http://www.topix.com/forum/religion/atheism/T...
Oops.

This one.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_in...

Since: Sep 08

Westcliffe, CO

#128882 Oct 10, 2012
scaritual wrote:
<quoted text> Any injury, that creates an unconscious state, can leave the body in such a condition. You are not aware of what is going on around you, nor do you feel pain etc...
Anesthesia in ancient times(and not too distant in the past), sometimes meant a mallet blow to the head. In the absence of an intoxicant etc...
<quoted text> One is conscious, the other is unconscious.
<quoted text> Agreed.
<quoted text> No, that is an assumption. It isn't fact. That is anecdotal evidence, not fact.
<quoted text> Sure. Even in a unconscious state, the autonomous systems are still functioning, or possibly functioning in a reduced capacity.
Here's a thought; What if those autonomous systems centered in the brain have an awareness or consciousness we aren't aware of at this point in medical science?
That could explain everything people associate with the NDE.
<quoted text>
That was my understanding, too. No measurable brain activity. According to the article, the Doctors were considering cessation of treatment it was so complete. The outlook wasn't favorable.
<quoted text> Believing it to be so doesn't make it fact, either.
It isn't that I think, since there is no proof or fact attached to the NDE, that it must be impossible.
I don't attach a value of absolute validity to the NDE, since there is no proof. There is a difference in that position.
There is no verification of fact attached to NDE's.
NDE's consist of anecdotal stories, that's all.
Additionally, there is no peer reviewed scientific research conducted concerning NDE's.
Lots of books about the NDE, that sell well, and that's it to my knowledge.
Maybe you know of something that I don't concerning research surrounding the NDE. Please provide it if you do.
<quoted text> You mean people relating such "near death" stories and assuming those to be a glimpse of an afterlife. Yeah.
That doesn't mean they represent a reality. I'm looking at this objectively.
<quoted text> In your perception, I get that.
Some people do not report any event, some people report an event and do not see it as an "afterlife" at all, and those are just a few of the phenomena associated with a NDE. There are numerous variations and of those, not all represent an afterllife.
I see that as a compelling evidence right there.
It still isn't proof or established fact, however.
If it was a robot that flatlined, you would say it was dead. Since it is a human, you make up reasons for the experience. Humans are glorified machines.

It is one of those things you will just have to wait for and find out for sure. Or not, if its a NDE.

Since: Sep 08

Westcliffe, CO

#128883 Oct 10, 2012
scaritual wrote:
<quoted text>
Yeah, and many of those books are written by Doctors, people in the medical industry and related fields. For some people, that imparts a seeming validity to the book.
"A doctor wrote it, it must really mean something!"
It simply means you were more inclined to buy the book and believe it.
That's it.
I agree, if they can make money selling the book, good deal.
Yet you will buy a book by someone in physics or cosmology with a theory dealing with things they can't see or directly measure, and you accept it as the total truth.

Since: Sep 08

Westcliffe, CO

#128884 Oct 10, 2012
Some videos relating to the doctor.

http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread888...

One of the comments.

"I am a neuroradiologist, in the Boston area, and my wife is a Harvard doctor as well.

Let's just say the brain is a very not well understood fuzzy computing device that

is a combination of neurotransmitters, astroglial stromal elements, a complex vascular system,

a complex neural net computer that emits an electromagnetic field, that probably stores memory holographically.

And that's the simple view. This neurosurgeon's neocortex may have shut down enough to activate

the papez circuit, a reptilian brain if you will, that controls our emotions.

We cant really image function with MRI, but I bet he's referring

to EEG tracings - which probably showed lack of alpha wave activity and other signs of deep unconsciousness.

This is an old controversy in medicine : the out of body experience.

I for one believe in it for a multitude of reasons. I even think the American indians were onto

something with shamanistic rituals and their attempts to enter the spirit world through trances.

After all, a coma is a form of a trance. Many times I wonder if all the distractional inputs were

removed, aka sensory deprevational states, would we tune into the netherworld more easily?

Ahhh, the big questions. Im stuck looking at awful strokes, hemorrhages, aneurysms, and tumors

all day. The really cool stuff would be pursuing the dream world, like in Dr. Haber's lab, in the Lathe of Heaven...."

“Ditat Deus”

Since: Jul 12

Location hidden

#128886 Oct 10, 2012
Hidingfromyou wrote:
<quoted text>
No, baby, it's all fact. They're bones, btw - not mineralized fossils. We can even measure their DNA.
Why do you argue with me? You haven't got a clue what you're talking about whereas I'm an professional in the field...
Here:
"Abstract
Temporal trends in postcranial robusticity within the genus Homo are explored by comparing cross-sectional diaphyseal and articular properties of the femur, and to a more limited extent, the humerus, in samples of Recent and earlier Homo. Using both theoretical mechanical models and empirical observations within Recent humans, scaling relationships between structural properties and bone length are developed. The influence of body shape on these relationships is considered. These scaling factors are then used to standardize structural properties for comparisons with pre-Recent Homo (Homo sp. and H. erectus, archaic H. sapiens, and early modern H. sapiens). Results of the comparisons lead to the following conclusions: 1) There has been a consistent, exponentially increasing decline in diaphyseal robusticity within Homo that has continued from the early Pleistocene through living humans. Early modern H. sapiens are closer in shaft robusticity to archaic H. sapiens than they are to Recent humans. The increase in diaphyseal robusticity in earlier Homo is a result of both medullary contraction and periosteal expansion relative to Recent humans. 2) There has been no similar temporal decline in articular robusticity within Homo–relative femoral head size is similar in all groups and time periods. Thus, articular to shaft proportions are different in pre-Recent and Recent Homo. 3) These findings are most consistent with a mechanical explanation (declining mechanical loading of the postcranium), that acted primarily through developmental rather than genetic means. The environmental (behavioral) factors that brought about the decline in postcranial robusticity in Homo are ultimately linked to increases in brain size and cultural-technological advances, although changes in robusticity lag behind changes in cognitive capabilities.© 1993 Wiley-Liss, Inc."
Do you understand what they're saying? Humans have been getting weaker since about 30 000 years ago - and this accelerated at 12 000 years ago. Any guesses as to why we got weaker?
http://www.researchgate.net/publication/22762...
So... Humans have been getting weaker for 30,000 years? And accelerated 12,000 years ago? Why would one assume that?

“Ditat Deus”

Since: Jul 12

Location hidden

#128887 Oct 10, 2012
Hidingfromyou wrote:
<quoted text>
I don't know if you've noticed, but you and I haven't only been talking about God here - but also homosexual behavior, evolution, planetary formation, paleoanthropology. Unlike me, you know almost nothing. I'm guessing it was your religion that did that to you.
More assumptions? For your information, I haven't had a college education because I can't afford it.

But thanks for throwing that in my face, I appreciate it.

"Unlike me, you know almost nothing." eh? You seem to know a lot about ONE thing, bullshit.

“Ditat Deus”

Since: Jul 12

Location hidden

#128888 Oct 10, 2012
It aint necessarily so wrote:
<quoted text>
I don't believe that. I believe that you were made to think that way. And unlike racial bigotry, which roots are in the xenophobia that nature programmed into us - it's best for ducks, for example, to feel at ease only with other ducks, and to fear nonducks like foxes - there is only one source of homophobia: theism.
Every anti-gay bigot learned that hate from the Bible or the Qur'an, or from somebody who learned it there. Cultures lacking this teaching still fear neighboring tribes, but don't hate their gay brothers and sisters.
Riiiiight.... Because the Bible is so full of gay this & gay that...

It's only mentioned a few times, it's not that big of a deal as you think.

My bigotry of gays stems from the attitude of gays. They think that because they're gay, everyone needs to accept them & move on. That's the wrong attitute to have.

Since: Sep 08

Westcliffe, CO

#128889 Oct 10, 2012
http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread888...

The first video is one of the doctor. After it plays you will see some more. View Don Piper's.

“MEET ROSEMARY-She Seeks Home”

Since: Oct 10

With Established Harem

#128890 Oct 10, 2012
RiversideRedneck wrote:
<quoted text>
Riiiiight.... Because the Bible is so full of gay this & gay that...
It's only mentioned a few times, it's not that big of a deal as you think.
My bigotry of gays stems from the attitude of gays. They think that because they're gay, everyone needs to accept them & move on. That's the wrong attitute to have.
.. rejection is the opposite of acceptance. You dislike gays and reject them as productive members of society ..

.. you dare speak of attitude? You, the misogynistic male who thinks all women are dumb - created to fetch you a beer, share your bed and wash your dishes ??..

“ Knight Of Hyrule”

Since: Dec 10

Location hidden

#128891 Oct 10, 2012
Dave Nelson wrote:
<quoted text>
If it was a robot that flatlined, you would say it was dead. Since it is a human, you make up reasons for the experience. Humans are glorified machines.
It is one of those things you will just have to wait for and find out for sure. Or not, if its a NDE.
There is a critical distinction that has to be made between biological and mechanical things. A mechanical machine can have the total sum of its parts replaced , or any number of parts replaced and function exactly as intended and be exactly like new.

A biological machine is limited in replacement parts , not all parts can be replaced and if any major parts that are replaceable, are indeed replaced. The biological unit will not function as new but at a deficit. We call it handicapped.
I'm sure you know what I mean.

Tell me when this thread is updated:

Subscribe Now Add to my Tracker

Add your comments below

Characters left: 4000

Please note by submitting this form you acknowledge that you have read the Terms of Service and the comment you are posting is in compliance with such terms. Be polite. Inappropriate posts may be removed by the moderator. Send us your feedback.

Atheism Discussions

Title Updated Last By Comments
News Atheists Aren't the Problem, Christian Intolera... (Oct '14) 13 min NoahLovesU 7,369
News Atheists' problem with the Bible (Sep '09) 26 min NoahLovesU 7,465
News Phil Robertson talks against Atheists 59 min thetruth 108
why Atheists believe in incest,pedophilia and b... Sun hpcaban 30
News .com | What hope is there without God? May 20 Kaitlin the Wolf ... 26
Science Disproves Evolution (Aug '12) May 20 thetruth 2,171
News "Science vs. Religion: What Scientists Really T... (Jan '12) May 19 Kathleen 19,031
More from around the web