Atheism requires as much faith as religion?

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Atheism requires as much faith as religion? bearvspuma : The only problem with this rationalization is that ita s assuming all athiests are so because theya re intelligent in the ways of science and reasoning and all people that believe in a form of god are unintelligent.

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#128427
Oct 8, 2012
 
polymath257 wrote:
<quoted text>
Counter-example: Greece. Ancient Greeks were both pagan and originated the idea that the universe could be understood in non-mystical ways.
In the Arab world, science flourished until the hard-liners too over around 100 AD and continued in Mongol regions until about 1400 AD.
In Europe under Christianity, science was practically non-existent from about 325AD (when Christianity took over the Roman empire) to about 1350AD (when Nicolas Oresme was active). It didn't really start gaining strength until the power of the Catholic church was challenged by the Protestants, which allowed a few brave people (Copernicus, Galileo, Kepler) to challenge the prevailing dogma. Even then, it wasn't until about 1650-1700 that it could be said to start to flourish and it really wasn't until the rise of a secular philosophy that the biggest advances were found.
Greeks had gods.

Rome was being overtaken by those it conquered and educated before the Church took over. The Church collected and collated the educational materials that allowed for the blossoming later. They encouraged education, even if it did have a theological bent to it. Your atheist secularism of today is doing the same thing. The denial of the supernatural as a basis for objective reasoning has become a religion. Even though it is obvious something started this existence. Perhaps those that advocate such have an ego desiring to fancy themselves the pinnacle of evolutionary development.

Those pagan civilizations were basically secular and superficial. Lip service was paid to the gods, but it was more on the order of gaining the favor of lady luck than deep religious thought. The here and now and your place in society was the major concern. Monotheism such as Christianity caused thinking to develop on a much deeper level, which of course lends to thinking about everything on a deeper level. More than this it is just here and exploit it thinking of secularism. Modern secularism is an offshoot of that development. Eliminate the source of that inspiration and you will revert to the simple exploitation again. Exploitation of people as physical assets, not as souls of equal worth.

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and still got most of it left

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#128428
Oct 8, 2012
 

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River Tam wrote:
<quoted text>
If you talk to Dave real nice, he might give you some softly glowing EMs. It really sets the mood.
;-p
LOL

“I started out with nothing”

Since: Nov 10

and still got most of it left

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#128429
Oct 8, 2012
 

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Double Fine wrote:
<quoted text>
...
Certainly. Violence is never condoned, and I think you misunderstood Christine. We don't condone violence, but we do advocate responsible people making responsible statements.
...
You are correct

“Don't be so dichotomous.”

Since: Jan 11

Embrace the grey.

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#128430
Oct 8, 2012
 
National Lampoon's Exodus.

"No shit, 40 years? Check please!"

“I won, I won, I won!!!”

Since: Mar 11

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#128431
Oct 8, 2012
 
RiversideRedneck wrote:
<quoted text>
He's a district congressman for the state of Georgia, right?
I don't think he's going to China any time soon....
There are plenty of scientists out there that don't think evolution happened OR happened the way we think we know it did.
He just happens to be a politician, too.
1. I didn't say he was going to China. I said China is going to be USA in bio-tech.

2. No. There are not plenty of scientists who don't think evolution happened. There aren't any, actually. There might be some old school medical doctors - but these are not scientists.

3. Evolution is the framework theory of all biological sciences. It unifies all biological phenomena under one explanatory model. No scientist doubts that evolution took place and is taking place. There are plenty of scientists who are Christians, but they're not creationists - they know evolution is ongoing.

4. There are something like 5 trained biological scientists who infer Intelligent Design. They still believe evolution happened and is happening, but they add a designer. They are honest about admitting they do not have a formal scientific theory of Intelligent Design, though. If they were critical thinkers, they'd realize they cannot formulate one - science cannot test the untestable.

5. Evolution the observation is directly, objectively testable.

6. Evolution the theory explains evolution the observation. Do you understand points number 5 and 6?

“I won, I won, I won!!!”

Since: Mar 11

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#128432
Oct 8, 2012
 
RiversideRedneck wrote:
<quoted text>
Like me?
Aw, yer sweet...
We are all ignorant of something. You just happen to be ignorant of science. I'm ignorant about lots of non-evolution stuff.:)
:)
:)

“There's a feeling I get...”

Since: Jun 11

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#128433
Oct 8, 2012
 
ChristineM wrote:
<quoted text>
You are correct
Of course I am.

I am Double Fine, after all.

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Since: Mar 11

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#128434
Oct 8, 2012
 
RiversideRedneck wrote:
<quoted text>
Easy.
Pay your own damn way.
'nuff said.
Not my place to decide how you people do healthcare, but it's worth pointing out that the USA has the worst health care system out of all developed nations, has the greatest number of un-medicated TB patients, the most people not under medical care and the greatest number of bankruptcies because of a lack of health care.

Also, the people of other developed nations, like the UK and Japan (yaay!) enjoy a longer lifespan that the people of the US, partly b/c of the mess that your health care system is in.

All other developed nations have some sort of government run health care system. Guess in which country health care costs the most of public money? The USA.

Well done! You built the developed nations' worst health care system and it's bankrupting you, because you insist on keeping it in the hands of parasitic HMOs.

“I won, I won, I won!!!”

Since: Mar 11

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#128435
Oct 8, 2012
 
RiversideRedneck wrote:
<quoted text>
"disciplines"??
Evolution is a discipline now?
Who's the disciple?
Evolution is the theoretical framework for the discipline of biology.

“cdesign proponentsists”

Since: Jul 09

Pittsburgh, PA

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#128436
Oct 8, 2012
 

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Double Fine wrote:
<quoted text>
That's you. Neither would I. How about a mob of angry, agrieved people?
There is inciting a riot and there is appeasement, where are we at with the religious far right? If we have to give up our freedoms, then we are appeasing them and that never has worked yet.
Double Fine wrote:
Certainly. Violence is never condoned, and I think you misunderstood Christine. We don't condone violence, but we do advocate responsible people making responsible statements.
OK, what is his responsibility in this matter? Running into a crowded theater yelling, "Fire!", is one thing, making a movie that pokes fun at a myth is other.
Double Fine wrote:
Of course. But had I been the one spouting supremacist BS/anti-semitism to the wrong crowd and got hurt, I will have to take some of the blame.
How much? We have had the KKK march down the streets, of predominately black neighborhoods, without violence. If you do not tolerate the violence, then there will be no violence. If you allow it, give it credibility, then you are just asking for it.

"I strongly disagree with you, here. Feeling an emotions is normal, acting on it, in an unjustified/illegal way, is not."
Double Fine wrote:
Not normal or not legal?
In most places, we don't act out our emotions, if it is illegal to do so. So, it is not normal to act in an unjustified/illegal way.
Double Fine wrote:
Unjustified/illegal reaction to emotion is almost expected. Ever here about violence at sporting events? Road rage? Surely, it is not condoned, but one must remember that people are really easy to incite.
But it is not tolerated. Just because it happens, does not make it normal or even expected.

People are easy to incite! Especially when their actions are not met with society's disapproval.

If I was cheered for every time I smack some drive around for being a dumbass, I would be smacking people all day long! Both society and the law highly frown upon that, so I don't. I want to, but I don't because I want to be a part of society.

Radicals do not want to be a part of our global society and every time we let them get away with the murders and the bombings, we are giving their ways credence and the power to be even more deadly.
Double Fine wrote:
Nope. Not against the customer.
I don't know all the laws, but I am pretty sure that shitting, pissing, spitting, and flicking a boogie at someone, who does not want it, is against the law. We had a guy fart on a cop and he was charged with something over it.
Double Fine wrote:
Then good, you are a human being with empathy. Good for you - really. However, many people lack that.
There is a lot that I did not know, until I was shown.

Bottom line for me:

No one has the right to murder, especially just because they were offended.

Everyone has the right to speak their mind. No one forced them to watch the movie.

No country has the right to mark one of our citizens for death over a movie.

Religious laws mean nothing in my country.{Yeah, I know. We still have some, but we are working them out.}

Since: Mar 11

Dowagiac, MI

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#128437
Oct 8, 2012
 
I bet I can scroll past his useless spam faster than you.
River Tam wrote:
<quoted text>
I almost read two of Bob's posts. Then I didn't.

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#128438
Oct 8, 2012
 
Hidingfromyou wrote:
<quoted text>
Not my place to decide how you people do healthcare, but it's worth pointing out that the USA has the worst health care system out of all developed nations, has the greatest number of un-medicated TB patients, the most people not under medical care and the greatest number of bankruptcies because of a lack of health care.
Also, the people of other developed nations, like the UK and Japan (yaay!) enjoy a longer lifespan that the people of the US, partly b/c of the mess that your health care system is in.
All other developed nations have some sort of government run health care system. Guess in which country health care costs the most of public money? The USA.
Well done! You built the developed nations' worst health care system and it's bankrupting you, because you insist on keeping it in the hands of parasitic HMOs.
Japan is a lot more homogenous than the USA. You have people from all over the world, and their diseases and bad habits, converging on the USA. Probably the biggest mix in one Petri dish in the world. China, Japan, and most others don't have that issue of so many foreign introduced diseases.

“There's a feeling I get...”

Since: Jun 11

...when I look to the West

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#128439
Oct 8, 2012
 
TheBlackSheep wrote:
<quoted text>
There is inciting a riot and there is appeasement, where are we at with the religious far right? If we have to give up our freedoms, then we are appeasing them and that never has worked yet.
<quoted text>
OK, what is his responsibility in this matter? Running into a crowded theater yelling, "Fire!", is one thing, making a movie that pokes fun at a myth is other.
<quoted text>
How much? We have had the KKK march down the streets, of predominately black neighborhoods, without violence. If you do not tolerate the violence, then there will be no violence. If you allow it, give it credibility, then you are just asking for it.
"I strongly disagree with you, here. Feeling an emotions is normal, acting on it, in an unjustified/illegal way, is not."
<quoted text>
In most places, we don't act out our emotions, if it is illegal to do so. So, it is not normal to act in an unjustified/illegal way.
<quoted text>
But it is not tolerated. Just because it happens, does not make it normal or even expected.
People are easy to incite! Especially when their actions are not met with society's disapproval.
If I was cheered for every time I smack some drive around for being a dumbass, I would be smacking people all day long! Both society and the law highly frown upon that, so I don't. I want to, but I don't because I want to be a part of society.
Radicals do not want to be a part of our global society and every time we let them get away with the murders and the bombings, we are giving their ways credence and the power to be even more deadly.
<quoted text>
I don't know all the laws, but I am pretty sure that shitting, pissing, spitting, and flicking a boogie at someone, who does not want it, is against the law. We had a guy fart on a cop and he was charged with something over it.
<quoted text>
There is a lot that I did not know, until I was shown.
Bottom line for me:
No one has the right to murder, especially just because they were offended.
Everyone has the right to speak their mind. No one forced them to watch the movie.
No country has the right to mark one of our citizens for death over a movie.
Religious laws mean nothing in my country.{Yeah, I know. We still have some, but we are working them out.}
Almost off home, so I can't really type out the lengthy reply that your post (and this topic) deserves.

My point: Violent reaction may not be legal, but it happens.

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#128440
Oct 8, 2012
 
Dave Nelson wrote:
<quoted text>
Japan is a lot more homogenous than the USA. You have people from all over the world, and their diseases and bad habits, converging on the USA. Probably the biggest mix in one Petri dish in the world. China, Japan, and most others don't have that issue of so many foreign introduced diseases.
You've naively bought into what's called "Nihonjinron." And you're being naive about your health care system.

The UK and Canada have lots of immigrants - Canada's population only grows through immigration. They do not have the TB problems USA does. Neither countries have people going bankrupt because of health care.

Japan has lots of foreigners. They're just not visible because they're Asians. Well, the Brazilians are visible. Anyways, Japan also has among the highest population density per kilometer in the world, meaning that our potential for disease is much, much greater than yours - but we don't have it.

China is not a first world nation, except sort of in its main cities. It therefore doesn't count among the nations I'm speaking to: the G8 nations. China has massive problems and massive health problems (due mostly to pollution). Sure, you can compare your health care to theirs if you like.

On the world stage, US ranks around 30 - near Afghanistan in most health indicators.

You don't have an excuse. The worlds most powerful economy, cheap on its citizens. Afghanistan has an excuse, China has lots, American, none.

“cdesign proponentsists”

Since: Jul 09

Pittsburgh, PA

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#128441
Oct 8, 2012
 
Double Fine wrote:
<quoted text>
Almost off home, so I can't really type out the lengthy reply that your post (and this topic) deserves.
My point: Violent reaction may not be legal, but it happens.
I understand that and I understand that humans can be really emotional and stupid. I don't believe that we should walk around on egg shells for the mussies or anyone else.

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#128442
Oct 8, 2012
 
Hidingfromyou wrote:
<quoted text>
1. I didn't say he was going to China. I said China is going to be USA in bio-tech.
2. No. There are not plenty of scientists who don't think evolution happened. There aren't any, actually. There might be some old school medical doctors - but these are not scientists.
3. Evolution is the framework theory of all biological sciences. It unifies all biological phenomena under one explanatory model. No scientist doubts that evolution took place and is taking place. There are plenty of scientists who are Christians, but they're not creationists - they know evolution is ongoing.
4. There are something like 5 trained biological scientists who infer Intelligent Design. They still believe evolution happened and is happening, but they add a designer. They are honest about admitting they do not have a formal scientific theory of Intelligent Design, though. If they were critical thinkers, they'd realize they cannot formulate one - science cannot test the untestable.
5. Evolution the observation is directly, objectively testable.
6. Evolution the theory explains evolution the observation. Do you understand points number 5 and 6?
"A 2009 poll by Pew Research Center found that "Nearly all scientists (97%) say humans and other living things have evolved over time 87% say evolution is due to natural processes, such as natural selection. The dominant position among scientists that living things have evolved due to natural processes is shared by only about third (32%) of the public."
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Level_of_support_for_ev...

There are scientists that don't support (believe in) evolution.

I understand 5 & 6, but how is a theory about a million year old 'believed' species "testable"?

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#128443
Oct 8, 2012
 
Hidingfromyou wrote:
<quoted text>
We are all ignorant of something. You just happen to be ignorant of science. I'm ignorant about lots of non-evolution stuff.:)
:)
:)
I'm not ignorant of science. I have limited knowledge of it but I'm by no means ignorant of it.

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#128444
Oct 8, 2012
 
Hidingfromyou wrote:
Japan has lots of foreigners. They're just not visible
wooooah!!

Invisible Japs....

We're flucked!

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#128445
Oct 8, 2012
 

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Hidingfromyou wrote:
<quoted text>
Not my place to decide how you people do healthcare, but it's worth pointing out that the USA has the worst health care system out of all developed nations, has the greatest number of un-medicated TB patients, the most people not under medical care and the greatest number of bankruptcies because of a lack of health care.
Also, the people of other developed nations, like the UK and Japan (yaay!) enjoy a longer lifespan that the people of the US, partly b/c of the mess that your health care system is in.
All other developed nations have some sort of government run health care system. Guess in which country health care costs the most of public money? The USA.
Well done! You built the developed nations' worst health care system and it's bankrupting you, because you insist on keeping it in the hands of parasitic HMOs.
I haven't "built" anything. Obama will tell you that he built it all. LOL

I don't have health insurance. It's a rip off. They charge way too much for the mediocre services they provide.

I would not want a government run health care system. It's not their job to run a business, it's their job to run a government.

I don't know if Japanese & UKians live longer or not, that's disputable.

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#128446
Oct 8, 2012
 
Hidingfromyou wrote:
<quoted text>
You've naively bought into what's called "Nihonjinron." And you're being naive about your health care system.
The UK and Canada have lots of immigrants - Canada's population only grows through immigration. They do not have the TB problems USA does. Neither countries have people going bankrupt because of health care.
Japan has lots of foreigners. They're just not visible because they're Asians. Well, the Brazilians are visible. Anyways, Japan also has among the highest population density per kilometer in the world, meaning that our potential for disease is much, much greater than yours - but we don't have it.
China is not a first world nation, except sort of in its main cities. It therefore doesn't count among the nations I'm speaking to: the G8 nations. China has massive problems and massive health problems (due mostly to pollution). Sure, you can compare your health care to theirs if you like.
On the world stage, US ranks around 30 - near Afghanistan in most health indicators.
You don't have an excuse. The worlds most powerful economy, cheap on its citizens. Afghanistan has an excuse, China has lots, American, none.
The American health care system is run on greed. By doctors, insurance companies, and lawyers. The reason IANS left. His god status was reduced by the insurance companies.

I was pointing out the environment in America is just inherently more dangerous healthwise. These aren't tourists being funneled through a general society like most places, or underpopulated places like Canada. You have cultures from all over the world establishing themselves here that then interact with the larger population in a populous country. You just have more available things to ruin your health, from diseases you haven't been exposed to, the breeding ground for new one to develop, and the social aspects, such as heavy drinking and drugs that contribute to a higher health risk and damages that result from such. Which puts a bigger financial burden on the whole than would occur in less cosmopolitan places.

Add the hospitals with cracks, crevices, ventilations systems, and all sorts of places almost impossible to sterilize for those collections of organisms to evolve.

Plus the different life expectancies of those cultures affecting the overall rate. Don't forget, America is the refuge for the huddled masses.

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