Atheism requires as much faith as religion?

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Atheism requires as much faith as religion? bearvspuma : The only problem with this rationalization is that ita s assuming all athiests are so because theya re intelligent in the ways of science and reasoning and all people that believe in a form of god are unintelligent.

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#128118
Oct 6, 2012
 
lightbeamrider wrote:
<quoted text> If you deny 400 years of Israeli history as it relates to slavery to the degree where the first born sons were murdered by Egyptians then it is not so hard a stretch for your counterpart to deny the holocaust in the years to come. You laugh at biblical accounts and dismiss them as myth and now you get a taste of your own medicine and you call me coward. I have long since given up on how others except a handful who have earned the right think of or view me.
I think you may have it backwards. The first born egyptians were murdered by the holy ghost, because the pharaoh was being a meanie to moses, or some nonsense like that. It's funny to see someone get righteously indignant over something that not even their mythology claims to have happened.

“I won, I won, I won!!!”

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#128119
Oct 6, 2012
 
lightbeamrider wrote:
<quoted text> It denies your atheism and your revisionist history which is not the same as rejecting Science anymore than your belief the universe created itself and life came from inert elements is anti science.
You deny biological science. You actually claim that the theoretical framework of all biological sciences is in error - all without seeming to understanding the smallest detail of what evolution is, means or does.

You have a contradictory approach to history. Just a moment ago, you posted that you didn't take the Bible literally...necessarily, while earlier posting "it is scripture!" So I'm not sure where you stand here. It's fair to side with archaeologists who claim that the Bible can be read like history if we just know how to. It's not ok to rewrite history as the Creationists do - but I don't know where you stand on these issues.

Wasn't it you who claimed that Hitler invoked Darwinism? That would be one example of lying about history. Hitler invoked Social Darwinism and Catholicism but never Darwinism - he quite clearly didn't understand what Darwin wrote about. My point in bringing this up is that only a creationist would resort to this purposefully fraudulent representation of history - and distorting history so is damaging. For if we cannot understand history, we cannot learn from it.

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#128120
Oct 6, 2012
 
lightbeamrider wrote:
<quoted text> There were at least 10 judgements after the Israelites left Egypt. In Joshua the people who entered were the next generation along with Joshua and Calab. Even Moses died off. I don't know, off hand if there is a number count in Joshua.
That's ok. I forgive you.

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#128121
Oct 6, 2012
 
lightbeamrider wrote:
<quoted text> There were at least 10 judgements after the Israelites left Egypt. In Joshua the people who entered were the next generation along with Joshua and Calab. Even Moses died off. I don't know, off hand if there is a number count in Joshua.
You are going to have to realize that, despite what you may believe, you aren't going to change any minds by citing biblical evidence. I know, I know, it's unfair, us godless heathens won't give your book a fair shake, but please humor us with more substantial information.

I still can't believe it every time I read a post from you that quotes the bible. I should have learned by now.

“hellshade”

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#128122
Oct 6, 2012
 
atheism is nothing more than a disbelief in gods and/or the supernatural. belief requires faith disbelief does not...

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#128123
Oct 6, 2012
 
Dave Nelson wrote:
<quoted text>
They are not capable of seeing how their passion and zeal in denouncing religion displays their irrationality. They don't understand it is that fanaticism which makes them so unlovable, not their personal belief for or against. There is no gray in their views. If you are theist or deistic, you are automatically a creationist. Snarl, snap, snap. No rational discussion with them. Absent the religion, they will find something else to snarl and snap against. It ain't the message, it's the messengers with the problem.
I have no problem with personal religious belief, I have a problem with virus like religious belief. The type that wants to spread.

Also, I would prefer to think that we live in a nice, perfect, meaningful universe, where we all get to meet our dead friends and family in the afterlife. I just can't. It's not spite, it's a true inability. I cannot believe without evidence.

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#128124
Oct 6, 2012
 
Hidingfromyou wrote:
<quoted text>
:)
Hey!
It's me :)
Ha, I thought you were civil enough. Very patient you are with this one.

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#128125
Oct 6, 2012
 
lightbeamrider wrote:
<quoted text> There were at least 10 judgements after the Israelites left Egypt. In Joshua the people who entered were the next generation along with Joshua and Calab. Even Moses died off. I don't know, off hand if there is a number count in Joshua.
I just finished reading that article you posted - it's interesting and presents a thoughtful perspective from the "Bible is accurate" side (except for their hilarious "but you don't have to take it literally if that doesn't work" caveat that I discussed above).

I found this disturbingly thoughtless: "Such discoveries have theological implications, says Hoffmeier. "There is a lot at stake here. The New Testament interweaves the salvific events of the Old Testament into it in such a way that Jesus the Passover Lamb loses significance if there is no historical Passover."

Even if Exodus is just a story, it's a story that was believed as history up until very recently. That story would have acted to create the Passover regardless of the veracity of its claims.

It's likely there is some truth to Exodus. It's very likely that some Jews were slaves. It's likely some escaped - maybe even wandered for a while. The miracles are unlikely, the promised land doesn't appear true (the arky suggests the Jews were living in Israel for a pretty long time), the numbers must be incorrect.

None of that changes the importance of the story to the Jewish people, nor the importance of the metaphor. Diaspora is a defining feature of Jewish cultural heritage - the Exodus story, factually real, partially real, entirely fictional - is deeply important to their cultural identity and, given the last 1000 years and interaction with Europe, continues to be powerfully meaningful and relevant.

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#128126
Oct 6, 2012
 
Dave Nelson wrote:
<quoted text>
They are not capable of seeing how their passion and zeal in denouncing religion displays their irrationality. They don't understand it is that fanaticism which makes them so unlovable, not their personal belief for or against. There is no gray in their views. If you are theist or deistic, you are automatically a creationist. Snarl, snap, snap. No rational discussion with them. Absent the religion, they will find something else to snarl and snap against. It ain't the message, it's the messengers with the problem.
Dave, you couldn't learn to love me?

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#128127
Oct 6, 2012
 
timn17 wrote:
<quoted text>You are going to have to realize that, despite what you may believe, you aren't going to change any minds by citing biblical evidence. I know, I know, it's unfair, us godless heathens won't give your book a fair shake, but please humor us with more substantial information.
I still can't believe it every time I read a post from you that quotes the bible. I should have learned by now.
It is not about changing minds here. Why do you assume that? At least get the facts right so as you know what you do not believe. There are other here besides hardened atheists. It is mostly about them and refuting lies as it relates to my beliefs. You guys so self centered you think it is all about you.

“Think&Care”

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#128128
Oct 6, 2012
 
Dave Nelson wrote:
<quoted text>
The simple fact is dark energy and matter came about because gravity as calculated could not account for the motions of the stars. Something like 95% of visible mass was missing?
That's a large margin of error. I would have looked for other things, like EM.
Gravity's strongest force is the asshole sucking in math heads.
You think that EM wasn't considered? Really? LMAO

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#128129
Oct 6, 2012
 
Hidingfromyou wrote:
Oh, I don't deny that some Israelites were likely held as slaves by the Ancient Egyptians, but I deny that the Bible is 100% historically accurate.
Reductionist. Like saying i don't deny some Jews were killed in the holocaust but the numbers are way overblown.
Even your own article that you posted suggested that 1 million people very likely didn't survive in the desert for 40 years.
That is the opinion of one person quoted in the article.
Were the first born sons of the Jewish slaves murdered in Egypt? I wasn't aware that was in the Bible, sorry. That doesn't make a lot of sense, though. If you're a slave owning people, you kind of want those valuable first born sons.
Read Exodus 1-2.
Yes, I will not accept your book of myth as evidence. So it's laughable when you write "it is scripture!" as if that should somehow sway an argument.
It is not all about you.
Oh, some parts of the Bible have some historical truths in them.
Yet you have to be careful about accepting it as accurate - it's a book that is designed to promote a cultural identity for the Jews. Several different versions were stitched together by an editor hundreds of years after the events described - and he altered them. We know this, Bible scholars know this - and here you are claiming it's 100% accurate???
You are overstating the case. Name some parts that were stitched together. There are factual mistakes in the New. I will not point them out to you.
I'm sorry, LB, this isn't Sunday school. You'll have to do better than that. Or don't. Perhaps this is your limitation.
What is your limitation? Don't answer that. They come across as obvious anyway.

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#128130
Oct 6, 2012
 
lightbeamrider wrote:
<quoted text> It is not about changing minds here. Why do you assume that? At least get the facts right so as you know what you do not believe. There are other here besides hardened atheists. It is mostly about them and refuting lies as it relates to my beliefs. You guys so self centered you think it is all about you.
"Hardened atheists." Lol. Funny term.

So, you are here solely to selflessly offer your services to the defense of your belief against the lying, hardened atheists?

And sorry if changing minds was the wrong term. Perhaps I should have said if you want people to take you seriously, stop citing scripture.

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#128131
Oct 6, 2012
 
"At least get the facts right so as you know what you do not believe."

Hiding, I need this translated.

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#128132
Oct 6, 2012
 
lightbeamrider wrote:
<quoted text> Reductionist. Like saying i don't deny some Jews were killed in the holocaust but the numbers are way overblown.
You do enjoy making comparisons to holocaust denial.

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#128133
Oct 6, 2012
 
lightbeamrider wrote:
You are overstating the case. Name some parts that were stitched together.
Wasn't it you who was just proclaiming the numerous authors of the bible, and the long period of time during which it was written, as "proof?"

“Think&Care”

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#128134
Oct 6, 2012
 
Dave Nelson wrote:
<quoted text>
The simple fact is dark energy and matter came about because gravity as calculated could not account for the motions of the stars. Something like 95% of visible mass was missing?
Not quite stated correctly. The basic equations of general relativity hold. The question is how much matter and energy are around. The *visible* part is not all of the matter around. As others have pointed out, there are types of ordinary matter that would qualify for some parts of dark matter. But the majority of it doesn't interact strongly with light, since otherwise it would have a temperature reflecting that fact. The observed velocity curves show that either our understanding of gravity is wrong or there is additional matter out there that we don't see. The first possibility has been considered, but it turns out to be incredibly difficult to both explain the velocity curves we see *and* stay consistent with what we know about the solar system. Even the alternative ideas about gravity require dark matter to explain what we actually see. E&M effects don't do the job since they also would show up as temperature (and hence light) from the surrounding material.
That's a large margin of error. I would have looked for other things, like EM.
Gravity's strongest force is the asshole sucking in math heads.
Well, gravity works quite well if you include all the matter, both seen and unseen.

What people don't seem to get is that we *know* of particles that do not interact strong with light. Neutrinos were, in fact, a prime candidate for dark matter except that they don't have the mass required. They are almost, but not quite massless. But, a heavy version of neutrinos would fit perfectly. other candidates are axions and photinos. All of these are distinct possibilities in the particle theories we now have, which are also very tightly constrained by the observed evidence.

Your 95% figure is not for dark matter alone. it includes both dark matter and dark energy. Since the latter was a part of Einstein's ideas from the start, it is hardly an unconsidered possibility before the discovery of the accelerating expansion of the universe. Where the dark energy is anything more than simply a energy density of the vacuum or whether it has more dynamics is yet to be seen. Whether dark energy (not dark matter) can be explained away is also yet to be seen. But dark matter is a clear aspect of cosmology.

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#128135
Oct 6, 2012
 

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timn17 wrote:
<quoted text>Dave, you couldn't learn to love me?
Depends on the shape of your ass.

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#128136
Oct 6, 2012
 
polymath257 wrote:
<quoted text>
You think that EM wasn't considered? Really? LMAO
Not well enough evidently. Did you read that link I posted a little while ago?

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#128137
Oct 6, 2012
 
Dave Nelson wrote:
<quoted text>
Depends on the shape of your ass.
So shallow, Dave. I would have thought that a trail blazer like yourself would be open to whatever form god chose for me.

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