Atheism requires as much faith as rel...

Atheism requires as much faith as religion?

There are 242936 comments on the Webbunny tumblelog story from Jul 18, 2009, titled Atheism requires as much faith as religion?. In it, Webbunny tumblelog reports that:

Atheism requires as much faith as religion? bearvspuma : The only problem with this rationalization is that ita s assuming all athiests are so because theya re intelligent in the ways of science and reasoning and all people that believe in a form of god are unintelligent.

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Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#128111 Oct 6, 2012
lightbeamrider wrote:
<quoted text> And let me tell you something, it is not only Christianity, it is also Judaism and Jewish history you demonstrate contempt for. Reducing it all to invented myth to keep everybody together. Your explanation is condescending.
You do know that most jews are not ridiculous literalists, right?

“Why does my ignorance”

Since: Mar 11

justify your deity?

#128112 Oct 6, 2012
lightbeamrider wrote:
<quoted text> If you deny 400 years of Israeli history as it relates to slavery to the degree where the first born sons were murdered by Egyptians then it is not so hard a stretch for your counterpart to deny the holocaust in the years to come. You laugh at biblical accounts and dismiss them as myth and now you get a taste of your own medicine and you call me coward. I have long since given up on how others except a handful who have earned the right think of or view me.
Oh, I don't deny that some Israelites were likely held as slaves by the Ancient Egyptians, but I deny that the Bible is 100% historically accurate. Even your own article that you posted suggested that 1 million people very likely didn't survive in the desert for 40 years.

Were the first born sons of the Jewish slaves murdered in Egypt? I wasn't aware that was in the Bible, sorry. That doesn't make a lot of sense, though. If you're a slave owning people, you kind of want those valuable first born sons.

No, you called me a Holocaust denier because we are in disagreement about Exodus. That's cowardly. I won't stand for it. 1000 years from now, someone like me won't either - we have film footage of the terrible atrocities inflicted on the Jews by the Christian Nazi Germany state and people.

Yes, I will not accept your book of myth as evidence. So it's laughable when you write "it is scripture!" as if that should somehow sway an argument. You wouldn't if I put any other religion's mythology down - why should I with yours?

Oh, some parts of the Bible have some historical truths in them. Yet you have to be careful about accepting it as accurate - it's a book that is designed to promote a cultural identity for the Jews. Several different versions were stitched together by an editor hundreds of years after the events described - and he altered them. We know this, Bible scholars know this - and here you are claiming it's 100% accurate???

I'm sorry, LB, this isn't Sunday school. You'll have to do better than that. Or don't. Perhaps this is your limitation.

“Why does my ignorance”

Since: Mar 11

justify your deity?

#128113 Oct 6, 2012
Hidingfromyou wrote:
From your paper. Please note they also don't take the Bible literally:
lightbeamrider wrote:
<quoted text> It is only fundies from both the left and right who do. That would include you but not necessarily me.
.
Huh?
.
This may shock you, considering our past discussion, but I don't take the Bible literally.

Since: Sep 08

Westcliffe, CO

#128114 Oct 6, 2012
lightbeamrider wrote:
<quoted text> It is only fundies from both the left and right who do. That would include you but not necessarily me.
They are not capable of seeing how their passion and zeal in denouncing religion displays their irrationality. They don't understand it is that fanaticism which makes them so unlovable, not their personal belief for or against. There is no gray in their views. If you are theist or deistic, you are automatically a creationist. Snarl, snap, snap. No rational discussion with them. Absent the religion, they will find something else to snarl and snap against. It ain't the message, it's the messengers with the problem.

“Why does my ignorance”

Since: Mar 11

justify your deity?

#128115 Oct 6, 2012
timn17 wrote:
I feel bad for light.
:)

Hey!

It's me :)

Since: Jun 12

Location hidden

#128116 Oct 6, 2012
Hidingfromyou wrote:
<quoted text>
From your paper. Please note they also don't take the Bible literally:
"If it seems incredible to believe that 600,000 men plus women and children could have survived as a people in the Sinai wilderness for 40 years, we may be misinterpreting the number, says Hoffmeier. Hebrew University professor Abraham Malamat, for one, points out that the Bible often refers to 600 and its multiples, as well as 1,000 and its multiples, typologically in order to convey the idea of a large military unit. "The issue of Exodus 12:37 is an interpretive one," says Hoffmeier. "The Hebrew word eleph can be translated 'thousand,' but it is also rendered in the Bible as 'clans' and 'military units.' When I look at the question as an Egyptologist, I know that there are thought to have been 20,000 in the entire Egyptian army at the height of Egypt's empire. And at the battle of Ai in Joshua 7, there was a severe military setback when 36 troops were killed. If you have an army of 600,000, that's not a big setback." In other words, the head count may have been far fewer than suggested by a literal reading of Exodus 12:37."
Ah, thanks for that, LB.
"If it seems incredible..." just change how we interpret the Bible! After all you don't need to use "a literal reading of Exodus..."
You apologists are fantastic - what a wonderful demonstration.
There were at least 10 judgements after the Israelites left Egypt. In Joshua the people who entered were the next generation along with Joshua and Calab. Even Moses died off. I don't know, off hand if there is a number count in Joshua.

“Why does my ignorance”

Since: Mar 11

justify your deity?

#128117 Oct 6, 2012
RiversideRedneck wrote:
Makes sense, Hiding.
Good thing I'm no creationist.
ugh
Do I have to fight with them now, too?
screw it, it's oh-beer-thirty
River, you're growing on me. Stubbornly, like an unwanted love handle, but you are.

River, toss me a beer! And no Budweiser - blach! I'll take a Coors. The champagne of beer.

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#128118 Oct 6, 2012
lightbeamrider wrote:
<quoted text> If you deny 400 years of Israeli history as it relates to slavery to the degree where the first born sons were murdered by Egyptians then it is not so hard a stretch for your counterpart to deny the holocaust in the years to come. You laugh at biblical accounts and dismiss them as myth and now you get a taste of your own medicine and you call me coward. I have long since given up on how others except a handful who have earned the right think of or view me.
I think you may have it backwards. The first born egyptians were murdered by the holy ghost, because the pharaoh was being a meanie to moses, or some nonsense like that. It's funny to see someone get righteously indignant over something that not even their mythology claims to have happened.

“Why does my ignorance”

Since: Mar 11

justify your deity?

#128119 Oct 6, 2012
lightbeamrider wrote:
<quoted text> It denies your atheism and your revisionist history which is not the same as rejecting Science anymore than your belief the universe created itself and life came from inert elements is anti science.
You deny biological science. You actually claim that the theoretical framework of all biological sciences is in error - all without seeming to understanding the smallest detail of what evolution is, means or does.

You have a contradictory approach to history. Just a moment ago, you posted that you didn't take the Bible literally...necessarily, while earlier posting "it is scripture!" So I'm not sure where you stand here. It's fair to side with archaeologists who claim that the Bible can be read like history if we just know how to. It's not ok to rewrite history as the Creationists do - but I don't know where you stand on these issues.

Wasn't it you who claimed that Hitler invoked Darwinism? That would be one example of lying about history. Hitler invoked Social Darwinism and Catholicism but never Darwinism - he quite clearly didn't understand what Darwin wrote about. My point in bringing this up is that only a creationist would resort to this purposefully fraudulent representation of history - and distorting history so is damaging. For if we cannot understand history, we cannot learn from it.

“Why does my ignorance”

Since: Mar 11

justify your deity?

#128120 Oct 6, 2012
lightbeamrider wrote:
<quoted text> There were at least 10 judgements after the Israelites left Egypt. In Joshua the people who entered were the next generation along with Joshua and Calab. Even Moses died off. I don't know, off hand if there is a number count in Joshua.
That's ok. I forgive you.

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#128121 Oct 6, 2012
lightbeamrider wrote:
<quoted text> There were at least 10 judgements after the Israelites left Egypt. In Joshua the people who entered were the next generation along with Joshua and Calab. Even Moses died off. I don't know, off hand if there is a number count in Joshua.
You are going to have to realize that, despite what you may believe, you aren't going to change any minds by citing biblical evidence. I know, I know, it's unfair, us godless heathens won't give your book a fair shake, but please humor us with more substantial information.

I still can't believe it every time I read a post from you that quotes the bible. I should have learned by now.

“hellshade”

Since: Jul 07

Location hidden

#128122 Oct 6, 2012
atheism is nothing more than a disbelief in gods and/or the supernatural. belief requires faith disbelief does not...

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#128123 Oct 6, 2012
Dave Nelson wrote:
<quoted text>
They are not capable of seeing how their passion and zeal in denouncing religion displays their irrationality. They don't understand it is that fanaticism which makes them so unlovable, not their personal belief for or against. There is no gray in their views. If you are theist or deistic, you are automatically a creationist. Snarl, snap, snap. No rational discussion with them. Absent the religion, they will find something else to snarl and snap against. It ain't the message, it's the messengers with the problem.
I have no problem with personal religious belief, I have a problem with virus like religious belief. The type that wants to spread.

Also, I would prefer to think that we live in a nice, perfect, meaningful universe, where we all get to meet our dead friends and family in the afterlife. I just can't. It's not spite, it's a true inability. I cannot believe without evidence.

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#128124 Oct 6, 2012
Hidingfromyou wrote:
<quoted text>
:)
Hey!
It's me :)
Ha, I thought you were civil enough. Very patient you are with this one.

“Why does my ignorance”

Since: Mar 11

justify your deity?

#128125 Oct 6, 2012
lightbeamrider wrote:
<quoted text> There were at least 10 judgements after the Israelites left Egypt. In Joshua the people who entered were the next generation along with Joshua and Calab. Even Moses died off. I don't know, off hand if there is a number count in Joshua.
I just finished reading that article you posted - it's interesting and presents a thoughtful perspective from the "Bible is accurate" side (except for their hilarious "but you don't have to take it literally if that doesn't work" caveat that I discussed above).

I found this disturbingly thoughtless: "Such discoveries have theological implications, says Hoffmeier. "There is a lot at stake here. The New Testament interweaves the salvific events of the Old Testament into it in such a way that Jesus the Passover Lamb loses significance if there is no historical Passover."

Even if Exodus is just a story, it's a story that was believed as history up until very recently. That story would have acted to create the Passover regardless of the veracity of its claims.

It's likely there is some truth to Exodus. It's very likely that some Jews were slaves. It's likely some escaped - maybe even wandered for a while. The miracles are unlikely, the promised land doesn't appear true (the arky suggests the Jews were living in Israel for a pretty long time), the numbers must be incorrect.

None of that changes the importance of the story to the Jewish people, nor the importance of the metaphor. Diaspora is a defining feature of Jewish cultural heritage - the Exodus story, factually real, partially real, entirely fictional - is deeply important to their cultural identity and, given the last 1000 years and interaction with Europe, continues to be powerfully meaningful and relevant.

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#128126 Oct 6, 2012
Dave Nelson wrote:
<quoted text>
They are not capable of seeing how their passion and zeal in denouncing religion displays their irrationality. They don't understand it is that fanaticism which makes them so unlovable, not their personal belief for or against. There is no gray in their views. If you are theist or deistic, you are automatically a creationist. Snarl, snap, snap. No rational discussion with them. Absent the religion, they will find something else to snarl and snap against. It ain't the message, it's the messengers with the problem.
Dave, you couldn't learn to love me?

Since: Jun 12

Location hidden

#128127 Oct 6, 2012
timn17 wrote:
<quoted text>You are going to have to realize that, despite what you may believe, you aren't going to change any minds by citing biblical evidence. I know, I know, it's unfair, us godless heathens won't give your book a fair shake, but please humor us with more substantial information.
I still can't believe it every time I read a post from you that quotes the bible. I should have learned by now.
It is not about changing minds here. Why do you assume that? At least get the facts right so as you know what you do not believe. There are other here besides hardened atheists. It is mostly about them and refuting lies as it relates to my beliefs. You guys so self centered you think it is all about you.

“Think&Care”

Since: Oct 07

Location hidden

#128128 Oct 6, 2012
Dave Nelson wrote:
<quoted text>
The simple fact is dark energy and matter came about because gravity as calculated could not account for the motions of the stars. Something like 95% of visible mass was missing?
That's a large margin of error. I would have looked for other things, like EM.
Gravity's strongest force is the asshole sucking in math heads.
You think that EM wasn't considered? Really? LMAO

Since: Jun 12

Location hidden

#128129 Oct 6, 2012
Hidingfromyou wrote:
Oh, I don't deny that some Israelites were likely held as slaves by the Ancient Egyptians, but I deny that the Bible is 100% historically accurate.
Reductionist. Like saying i don't deny some Jews were killed in the holocaust but the numbers are way overblown.
Even your own article that you posted suggested that 1 million people very likely didn't survive in the desert for 40 years.
That is the opinion of one person quoted in the article.
Were the first born sons of the Jewish slaves murdered in Egypt? I wasn't aware that was in the Bible, sorry. That doesn't make a lot of sense, though. If you're a slave owning people, you kind of want those valuable first born sons.
Read Exodus 1-2.
Yes, I will not accept your book of myth as evidence. So it's laughable when you write "it is scripture!" as if that should somehow sway an argument.
It is not all about you.
Oh, some parts of the Bible have some historical truths in them.
Yet you have to be careful about accepting it as accurate - it's a book that is designed to promote a cultural identity for the Jews. Several different versions were stitched together by an editor hundreds of years after the events described - and he altered them. We know this, Bible scholars know this - and here you are claiming it's 100% accurate???
You are overstating the case. Name some parts that were stitched together. There are factual mistakes in the New. I will not point them out to you.
I'm sorry, LB, this isn't Sunday school. You'll have to do better than that. Or don't. Perhaps this is your limitation.
What is your limitation? Don't answer that. They come across as obvious anyway.

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#128130 Oct 6, 2012
lightbeamrider wrote:
<quoted text> It is not about changing minds here. Why do you assume that? At least get the facts right so as you know what you do not believe. There are other here besides hardened atheists. It is mostly about them and refuting lies as it relates to my beliefs. You guys so self centered you think it is all about you.
"Hardened atheists." Lol. Funny term.

So, you are here solely to selflessly offer your services to the defense of your belief against the lying, hardened atheists?

And sorry if changing minds was the wrong term. Perhaps I should have said if you want people to take you seriously, stop citing scripture.

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