Atheism requires as much faith as religion?

Atheism requires as much faith as religion? bearvspuma : The only problem with this rationalization is that ita s assuming all athiests are so because theya re intelligent in the ways of science and reasoning and all people that believe in a form of god are unintelligent. Read more

“In the beginning God Created..”

Since: Feb 12

Southern Illinois

#127846 Oct 5, 2012
scaritual wrote:
<quoted text>
You're talking nonsense.
Comment from a Jewish archaeologist.
Israel Finkelstein, the director of the Institute of Archaeology at Tel Aviv University: "Archaeology has shown that early Israel indeed emerged from the local population of late Bronze Canaan." In addition, he said, archaeology has turned up no physical remains to support the Bible's story of the Exodus: "There is no evidence for the wanderings of the Israelites in the Sinai desert." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_Finkelste...
Comment from a Christian archaeologist.
William Dever writes: "The overwhelming archaeological evidence today of largely indigenous origins for early Israel leaves no room for an exodus from Egypt or a 40-year pilgrimage through the Sinai wilderness."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_G._Dever
There is no evidence for the "Exodus", because there is no evidence.
<quoted text> Irrelevant to this conversation, but yes, and those are verifiable historical events, in numerous ways. There is proof available concerning those events.
<quoted text> The Jewish people exist and are not in question here. That they celebrate Passover does not verify or prove the "Exodus".
There is no proof for the "Exodus".
<quoted text>
I suppose that would mean Israel Finkelstein, the director of the Institute of Archaeology at Tel Aviv University and numerous other Jewish archaeologists and scholars are Antisemitic, too?
Your Antisemitic comment is reprehensible.
<quoted text> The Alamo happened, it is supported historically, and we aren't talking about the Alamo.
There is no proof concerning the "Exodus".
You have no proof the Exodus didnít happen.

Iím standing on the Biblical account. Which was not written last week but thousands of years ago.

The fact the Jews celebrate the Passover and have for thousands of years.

Slavery was common place for the period.

The insurmountable task of building the pyramids required massive amounts of labor.

No nation could afford to pay thousands of employees during the time period and remain solvent.

There're political reasons and cause not to bring forth further evidence in reference to the Exodus.

Plagues are not impossible and have happened throughout history.

Egypt was a super power. Then it slid into a third world status. What caused this slide? A. Exodus.

Wondering 40 years in the desert is a very insignificant amount of time when you compare it to ethnic groups that have lived thousands of years in one region.

Very little archeological excavating and searching has been conduct outside of the pyramids. Some perhaps but not near enough to support the claims of no Exodus.

The Exodus happened, sorry that it goes against what you believe but it did happen.

“Why does my ignorance”

Since: Mar 11

justify your deity?

#127847 Oct 5, 2012
lightbeamrider wrote:
<quoted text> Answer the question please. It is a legit question. You made the statement it is fiction. Now back it up.
"Fringe historians often compare the content of this papyrus with Exodus, the second book of the Bible [1]. Similarities between Egyptian texts and the Bible are easily found, and it is reasonable to assume Egyptian influence on the Hebrews, given their at times close contacts. But to conclude from such parallelisms that the Ipuwer Papyrus describes Egypt at the time of the Exodus, requires a leap of faith not everybody is willing to make."

http://www.reshafim.org.il/ad/egypt/texts/ipu...

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#127848 Oct 5, 2012
EMS Servant wrote:
<quoted text>
I have yet to see anyone mention anything regarding Leiden Payprus #344 aside the allegation that it is fiction. Was Leiden Payprus #344 already discussed? If so it shouldn't be that hard to list at least one historian who has come to that conclusion as I had requested.
I thought you were talking about the exodus itself. I believe scar above this post has addressed your question, however.

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#127849 Oct 5, 2012
Hidingfromyou wrote:
<quoted text>
So anyone can just post a paper of a "translation" and it's legitimate until we demonstrate how many scientists denounce it?
That's crazy, but it exemplifies how you creationists think.
He did not post a legitimate scholarly article, but some body's fiction. If it's legitimate, why didn't he cite an academic source? Why isn't it being discussed in archaeology?
He didn't even post a legitimate question, but a logical fallacy - the same logical fallacy as the question I asked in return. He's making unwarranted assumptions within the question itself.
Exactly. It is very annoying. The bible is true until proven otherwise, any evidence that may offer tenuous support for the bible is true until proven otherwise, etc. That is not how it works.

“Why does my ignorance”

Since: Mar 11

justify your deity?

#127850 Oct 5, 2012
timn17 wrote:
<quoted text>What? Lol
Sorry, I was annoyed at the question he asked, since it was a misleading question. In asking "Which historians believe this document to be fiction?" he's suggesting that some historians believe it not to be.

It would be better to ask "what support do we have for this document to be taken as legitimate?" and, since the context of his presenting it is to support Exodus, it would be better to ask "what support do we have that this document reinforces Exodus?"

Anyways, I was mistaken, it's a legitimate translation from Egypt that refers to a time much, much later than Exodus. One interesting point is that all of the references to slaves within it are to household slaves - that's what I keep telling Eagle, but he doesn't want to believe that. In and of itself, though, that's merely absence of evidence and it would be impossible to conclude, based on this document's discussion of slaves alone, that slaves were not used to build the pyramids (though the opposite is the logic most often employed by creationists). However, the archaeology of the pyramids, their treatment of workers, the beer, beef, fish and bread they provided them, the status accorded them, strongly suggest they weren't slaves. This paper is just adds a bit of evidence to that.

You can find an interesting analysis here:

http://www.reshafim.org.il/ad/egypt/texts/ipu...

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#127851 Oct 5, 2012
Eagle12 wrote:
<quoted text>
You have no proof the Exodus didnít happen.
Iím standing on the Biblical account. Which was not written last week but thousands of years ago.
The fact the Jews celebrate the Passover and have for thousands of years.
Slavery was common place for the period.
The insurmountable task of building the pyramids required massive amounts of labor.
No nation could afford to pay thousands of employees during the time period and remain solvent.
There're political reasons and cause not to bring forth further evidence in reference to the Exodus.
Plagues are not impossible and have happened throughout history.
Egypt was a super power. Then it slid into a third world status. What caused this slide? A. Exodus.
Wondering 40 years in the desert is a very insignificant amount of time when you compare it to ethnic groups that have lived thousands of years in one region.
Very little archeological excavating and searching has been conduct outside of the pyramids. Some perhaps but not near enough to support the claims of no Exodus.
The Exodus happened, sorry that it goes against what you believe but it did happen.
While your posts are useless, I love them. A real time view of the various ways the mind defends it's beliefs when faced with conflicting information.

“In the beginning God Created..”

Since: Feb 12

Southern Illinois

#127852 Oct 5, 2012
EMS Servant wrote:
<quoted text>
I have yet to see anyone mention anything regarding Leiden Payprus #344 aside the allegation that it is fiction. Was Leiden Payprus #344 already discussed? If so it shouldn't be that hard to list at least one historian who has come to that conclusion as I had requested.
There is something to be said about Ipuwer Papyrus. It looks to me like the smoking gun. Of course these non believers are going to nix it as not worthy of mentioning. Thank you for brining it up.

Wiki:

The Ipuwer Papyrus is a single papyrus holding an ancient Egyptian poem, called The Admonitions of Ipuwer or The Dialogue of Ipuwer and the Lord of All. Its official designation is Papyrus Leiden I 344 recto. It is housed in the Dutch National Museum of Antiquities in Leiden, Netherlands, after being purchased from Giovanni Anastasi, the Swedish consul to Egypt, in 1828. The sole surviving manuscript dates to the later 13th century BCE (no earlier than the 19th dynasty in the New Kingdom).

The Ipuwer Papyrus describes Egypt as afflicted by natural disasters and in a state of chaos, a topsy-turvy world where the poor have become rich, and the rich poor, and warfare, famine and death are everywhere. One symptom of this collapse of order is the lament that servants are leaving their servitude and acting rebelliously.

Since: Sep 10

Long Beach, CA

#127853 Oct 5, 2012
Eagle12 wrote:
<quoted text>
You have no proof the Exodus didnít happen.
Iím standing on the Biblical account. Which was not written last week but thousands of years ago.
The Exodus happened, sorry that it goes against what you believe but it did happen.
Eagle, if you want to believe the Exodus happened, knock yourself out.

But please don't expect reasonable people to follow your silly belief.

Next you'll be telling us that Jesus walked on water.

And turned water into wine.

And you have an invisible friend next to you on the bus seat.

“Why does my ignorance”

Since: Mar 11

justify your deity?

#127854 Oct 5, 2012
Eagle12 wrote:
<quoted text>
You have no proof the Exodus didnít happen.
Iím standing on the Biblical account. Which was not written last week but thousands of years ago.
The fact the Jews celebrate the Passover and have for thousands of years.
Slavery was common place for the period.
The insurmountable task of building the pyramids required massive amounts of labor.
No nation could afford to pay thousands of employees during the time period and remain solvent.
There're political reasons and cause not to bring forth further evidence in reference to the Exodus.
Plagues are not impossible and have happened throughout history.
Egypt was a super power. Then it slid into a third world status. What caused this slide? A. Exodus.
Wondering 40 years in the desert is a very insignificant amount of time when you compare it to ethnic groups that have lived thousands of years in one region.
Very little archeological excavating and searching has been conduct outside of the pyramids. Some perhaps but not near enough to support the claims of no Exodus.
The Exodus happened, sorry that it goes against what you believe but it did happen.
"Among Biblical scholars and archaeologists it is almost axiomatic that the Israelites entered Canaan about 1230Ė1220 B.C. In terms of archaeological periods, this would be towards the end of the Late Bronze Age, for which the Generally Accepted Date (GAD) is 1550Ė1200 B.C. Yet there are enormous problems with this dating. In recent decades an increasing number of scholars have recognized that if we accept the GAD of 1230Ė1220 B.C. for the Israelite entry into Canaan, we must reject the Biblical account of Israelís conquest of Canaanite cities. This is because the Biblical account conflicts so strongly with the archaeological record. The Bible describes the Israelite conquest of Canaan at length and refers to a number of cities encountered by Joshua and his armies. In almost every case the archaeological evidence is inconsistent with the Biblical evidenceóif we date the Israelite entry into Canaan to the GAD of 1230Ė1220 B.C."

http://davelivingston.com/davelivingston/arti...

An older one. New arky simply rejects the story of Exodus as real.

“In the beginning God Created..”

Since: Feb 12

Southern Illinois

#127855 Oct 5, 2012
timn17 wrote:
<quoted text>While your posts are useless, I love them. A real time view of the various ways the mind defends it's beliefs when faced with conflicting information.
Itís been a lively discussion and mannerly which is very much appreciated. I really enjoy talking to you and others. I thank you for your participation in the discussion.

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#127856 Oct 5, 2012
Hidingfromyou wrote:
<quoted text>
Sorry, I was annoyed at the question he asked, since it was a misleading question. In asking "Which historians believe this document to be fiction?" he's suggesting that some historians believe it not to be.
It would be better to ask "what support do we have for this document to be taken as legitimate?" and, since the context of his presenting it is to support Exodus, it would be better to ask "what support do we have that this document reinforces Exodus?"
Anyways, I was mistaken, it's a legitimate translation from Egypt that refers to a time much, much later than Exodus. One interesting point is that all of the references to slaves within it are to household slaves - that's what I keep telling Eagle, but he doesn't want to believe that. In and of itself, though, that's merely absence of evidence and it would be impossible to conclude, based on this document's discussion of slaves alone, that slaves were not used to build the pyramids (though the opposite is the logic most often employed by creationists). However, the archaeology of the pyramids, their treatment of workers, the beer, beef, fish and bread they provided them, the status accorded them, strongly suggest they weren't slaves. This paper is just adds a bit of evidence to that.
You can find an interesting analysis here:
http://www.reshafim.org.il/ad/egypt/texts/ipu...
Haha you don't have to explain yourself to me, I totally agree that all this exodus business is ridiculous.

Thank you for the link, I will check it out once I'm at my computer. Using a phone now and its really annoying.

“Ditat Deus”

Since: Jul 12

Location hidden

#127857 Oct 5, 2012
Woah there, tim. Your gods, the scientists, preach about things like dark matter & black holes and how much they "influence" the universe even though neither one of them have been proven!
And people like you blindly follow...

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#127858 Oct 5, 2012
Eagle12 wrote:
<quoted text>
There is something to be said about Ipuwer Papyrus. It looks to me like the smoking gun. Of course these non believers are going to nix it as not worthy of mentioning. Thank you for brining it up.
Wiki:
The Ipuwer Papyrus is a single papyrus holding an ancient Egyptian poem, called The Admonitions of Ipuwer or The Dialogue of Ipuwer and the Lord of All. Its official designation is Papyrus Leiden I 344 recto. It is housed in the Dutch National Museum of Antiquities in Leiden, Netherlands, after being purchased from Giovanni Anastasi, the Swedish consul to Egypt, in 1828. The sole surviving manuscript dates to the later 13th century BCE (no earlier than the 19th dynasty in the New Kingdom).
The Ipuwer Papyrus describes Egypt as afflicted by natural disasters and in a state of chaos, a topsy-turvy world where the poor have become rich, and the rich poor, and warfare, famine and death are everywhere. One symptom of this collapse of order is the lament that servants are leaving their servitude and acting rebelliously.
Have you completely ignored the information presented to you? The timing doesn't match up, and the document is referring to household slaves, as other people have already noted.

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#127859 Oct 5, 2012
RiversideRedneck wrote:
Woah there, tim. Your gods, the scientists, preach about things like dark matter & black holes and how much they "influence" the universe even though neither one of them have been proven!
And people like you blindly follow...
Why are you addressing me? There is a reason no one is responding to you. Now go back to your corner.

Since: Sep 10

Long Beach, CA

#127860 Oct 5, 2012
Eagle12 wrote:
<quoted text>
Itís been a lively discussion and mannerly which is very much appreciated. I really enjoy talking to you and others. I thank you for your participation in the discussion.
We used to get blessed.

What happened to your blessings?

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#127861 Oct 5, 2012
Eagle12 wrote:
<quoted text>
Itís been a lively discussion and mannerly which is very much appreciated. I really enjoy talking to you and others. I thank you for your participation in the discussion.
Why thank you eagle.

“Why does my ignorance”

Since: Mar 11

justify your deity?

#127862 Oct 5, 2012
EMS Servant wrote:
<quoted text>
I have yet to see anyone mention anything regarding Leiden Payprus #344 aside the allegation that it is fiction. Was Leiden Payprus #344 already discussed? If so it shouldn't be that hard to list at least one historian who has come to that conclusion as I had requested.
My apologies, the papyrus is not fiction. I meant that linking it to Exodus is by asking which historians disagree with the analysis - that seems to me the backwards way to go about it. What support is given that it reinforces the story of Exodus?

“Why does my ignorance”

Since: Mar 11

justify your deity?

#127863 Oct 5, 2012
RiversideRedneck wrote:
Woah there, tim. Your gods, the scientists, preach about things like dark matter & black holes and how much they "influence" the universe even though neither one of them have been proven!
And people like you blindly follow...
Do you know what dark matter is? Do you know what a black hole is? Do you know that we've found black holes and are monitoring them now?

“What's left to defend?”

Since: Jan 11

Freedom

#127864 Oct 5, 2012
RiversideRedneck wrote:
So......
NONE of you have solid proof that The Bible is a myth, or fairy tale....
Right.
Got it.
You BELIEVE it to be so.......
Admit that. If nothing else.
Are the stories about Zeus and Odin myths?

Did Snow White really sleep with all those dwarfs?

There's this thing called skepticism...

“Why does my ignorance”

Since: Mar 11

justify your deity?

#127865 Oct 5, 2012
EMS Servant wrote:
<quoted text>
So I guess you don't have an answer on any historians who believe that document to be ficiton. So you are speaking from your own "expert opinion"? Do you have a terminal degree in archeology or ancient history?...or was that a comment fired from somewhere other than your mouth?
Honestly, archaeology is my weak point. I don't know much about it and am not overly familiar with its methodologies. Lots of my friends are archaeologists and the tell me lots of interesting stuff and it's even part of a course I teach, and I was even offered a position doing archaeology, but it really and truly is my weak point.

It's fascinating stuff, though. Love reading about it, especially the Mayans.

Here's the thing: all people throughout history have experienced natural disasters and catastrophes. I've read quite a few accounts that read like the one you posted where "we had to turn out the slaves, we no longer had bread, highborn ladies couldn't even do X" etc. Years after the events, they're turned into mythologies - natural disasters make for great mythology.

So...what's surprising about the papyrus you presented? What links it to Exodus? The translation in English sounds similar, sure, but given that they were written at two different times, that the translations in English of other catastrophes sound like that, on what basis would you conclude it supports the Exodus story?

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