Atheism requires as much faith as religion?

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Atheism requires as much faith as religion? bearvspuma : The only problem with this rationalization is that ita s assuming all athiests are so because theya re intelligent in the ways of science and reasoning and all people that believe in a form of god are unintelligent.

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#127593
Oct 4, 2012
 

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Dave Nelson wrote:
<quoted text>
The models keep failing. They don't last very long. They keep getting patched to maintain some semblance of continuity. Apologetics,
Quit poking holes in religion.
But you are quite free to have faith in your system. I'm just telling you it has some serious problems. Just like you do with religion.
Technology is not science theory. Simple observation and tweaking. The evolution of it has resulted in what we have today, not the theoretical science you will be claiming is responsible.
Not true. Give a better alternative or cut it out.

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Long Beach, CA

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#127594
Oct 4, 2012
 
lightbeamrider wrote:
<quoted text> You believe that swill you got more problems than that. Universe create self is a logical absurdity. Don't beleieve in miracles but do believe universe created self. Only on Topix. Did you create yourself?
A question for you: Do you believe prayers are answered?

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Long Beach, CA

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#127595
Oct 4, 2012
 
Dave Nelson wrote:
<quoted text>
I seem to remember academia supporting the slaves built the pyramids theory.
.
Yes. But archaeologists, like other scientists, are constantly examining the evidence.

And if they find convincing evidence that demonstrates an existing theory is incorrect, they revise it accordingly.

Unlike static religious beliefs, science is always open to new discoveries.

Your age and unwillingness to keep up are showing.

You said recently that you don't read books because you're too busy living your own life.

Look at what you are missing!

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#127596
Oct 4, 2012
 

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timn17 wrote:
<quoted text>Not true. Give a better alternative or cut it out.
It is very true. Just read science literature for a while.

Upset when someone questions your religious beliefs?

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#127597
Oct 4, 2012
 
scaritual wrote:
<quoted text>
The bible is evidence of itself, it proves nothing, unless you are pointing to it and saying: "This is the bible".
That is not what majority scholarship says. That is not what the historians of old say. You can't change history just because you don't like it.

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#127598
Oct 4, 2012
 
Catcher1 wrote:
<quoted text>
A question for you: Do you believe prayers are answered?
Yes. Not always in the way or in the time we would like.

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#127600
Oct 4, 2012
 

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Regarding slaves building pyramids.

Rulers and governments have conscripted certain occupations for time immemorial to accomplish certain tasks. Certain national interests will be the reason. A guy could be an architect with a nice business, but if Pharaoh needed a bunch for a special project, he could call them up. Of course they were usually recompensed for it. But that can be called slavery.

Such is usually associated with the military, but the needs of the state can be applied to any occupation put into a national service.

In modern times they send letters. In older times they sent officials and troops to round up the talent, and probably escort them to their temporary job. Which could be a long term one.

Israel had many tradesmen and craftsmen. They could have easily been pressed into service to build pyramids. They would call it slavery.

“Pepsi is better than coke”

Since: Mar 11

and better with rum

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#127601
Oct 4, 2012
 

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Dave Nelson wrote:
<quoted text>
I seem to remember academia supporting the slaves built the pyramids theory.
Israel was once part of Egypt.
Archaeology has moved away from the blanket bible-supporting it did 60 years ago, largely because archaeologists have been forced to admit the evidence doesn't support the Bible.

And now, with a younger generation, a less religious generation, Bible archaeology and Egyptology is a lot more interesting. Now they're paying attention to what the artifacts say.

Yes, Egyptians had household slaves. Sure, some of them were probably Jewish. But slaves didn't build the pyramids - those were paid workers. There're records in hieroglyphics of rates of pay, food, and beer consumption. Three years ago arky's found a recipe for beer, btw, and it contained a powerful antibiotic (similar to erythromycin). You don't give slaves beer rations, you don't worry about paying them, you don't give them nice graves.

Also, the old calculations for how many laborers involved in the pyramids were off by a factor of 5. Most recent estimates are around 20 000 men, working in the off season. It looks like the pyramids were a make-work project for out of work laborers - largely done outside of planting and harvesting season.

Think about how much skill is involved in building a pyramid. Sure, lots of grunt work is needed to move the blocks around - but if you have any familiarity with carpentry, you can see all kinds of choke points that would require skill from quarrying the stone, to placing it on the ship, adjusting it as you move it, smoothing its sides to get it to fit, and more that I can't imagine.

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#127602
Oct 4, 2012
 

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Catcher1 wrote:
<quoted text>
Yes. But archaeologists, like other scientists, are constantly examining the evidence.
And if they find convincing evidence that demonstrates an existing theory is incorrect, they revise it accordingly.
Unlike static religious beliefs, science is always open to new discoveries.
Your age and unwillingness to keep up are showing.
You said recently that you don't read books because you're too busy living your own life.
Look at what you are missing!
Read my lips. Pay attention.

You said:

"And if they find convincing evidence that demonstrates an existing theory is incorrect, they revise it accordingly."

Such happens on a continuing basis.

Logical conclusion:

THEN YOU CAN'T TAKE WHAT THEY PROCLAIM NOW AS THE "TRUTH".

Thank you for your attention.

“Pepsi is better than coke”

Since: Mar 11

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#127603
Oct 4, 2012
 

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Dave Nelson wrote:
Regarding slaves building pyramids.
Rulers and governments have conscripted certain occupations for time immemorial to accomplish certain tasks. Certain national interests will be the reason. A guy could be an architect with a nice business, but if Pharaoh needed a bunch for a special project, he could call them up. Of course they were usually recompensed for it. But that can be called slavery.
Such is usually associated with the military, but the needs of the state can be applied to any occupation put into a national service.
In modern times they send letters. In older times they sent officials and troops to round up the talent, and probably escort them to their temporary job. Which could be a long term one.
Israel had many tradesmen and craftsmen. They could have easily been pressed into service to build pyramids. They would call it slavery.
Dave...shocking as this may sound, archaeology relies on evidence based methodologies, not pure speculation by "armchair fantasizers."

Science has shown, again and again, that personal introspection does not produce facts. You're stuck in this mode and, for reasons of insecurity, dislike the people who actually use methodologies to produce knowledge.

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#127604
Oct 4, 2012
 

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lightbeamrider wrote:
<quoted text> Yes. Not always in the way or in the time we would like.
Oh good, if you believe in prayer, here's a story for you--not new, but worth repeating:
A kid wanted a bicycle. So he prayed for one, but it didn't come. He prayed some more, and still no hint of a bicycle. So he prayed even harder. Still no bicycle. Finally he decided his prayers for a bicycle would not be answered and he had to take matters into his own hands.
So he went out and stole a bicycle...and prayed for forgiveness.

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#127605
Oct 4, 2012
 
Dave Nelson wrote:
<quoted text>
Read my lips. Pay attention.
You said:
"And if they find convincing evidence that demonstrates an existing theory is incorrect, they revise it accordingly."
Such happens on a continuing basis.
Logical conclusion:
THEN YOU CAN'T TAKE WHAT THEY PROCLAIM NOW AS THE "TRUTH".
Thank you for your attention.
You haven't said anything new Dave.

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#127606
Oct 4, 2012
 

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Hidingfromyou wrote:
<quoted text>
Dave...shocking as this may sound, archaeology relies on evidence based methodologies, not pure speculation by "armchair fantasizers."
Science has shown, again and again, that personal introspection does not produce facts. You're stuck in this mode and, for reasons of insecurity, dislike the people who actually use methodologies to produce knowledge.
You are emotional and irrational tonight. More so than usual.

Slaves usually require security to prevent escape, particularly if they look like their masters. That adds a lot of overhead to a budget.

Conscripts and contractors don't. The law catches up with them if they default.

You don't have a very good understanding of how people live together in civilizations. Old and new. Too much stereotyping from reading too many books in lieu of actually thinking.

Ask draftees if they considered they were slaves. They worked right along with the contracted. The government "owned" both of them.

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#127607
Oct 4, 2012
 

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Catcher1 wrote:
<quoted text>
You haven't said anything new Dave.
Flawless logic elicits such responses from you.

You just won't let it shake your religious belief.

“Life may be sweeter for this”

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#127608
Oct 4, 2012
 

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Eagle12 wrote:
Because it happened before the days of the local broadcast news and the New York Times. Something caused Egypt to fall from a Super Power status and that something was the Exodus.

Egypt was a society heavily dependant on slave labor. Slavery was the engine for their economy. No one can tell me that the great pyramids were built by paid Egyptian skilled labor. It was done on the backs of slaves.
You don't see how pharaoh could afford to build a pyramid without slave? If you weren't a pharaoh, you worked for enough to eat and a roof, which is also what a slave costs.

“Life may be sweeter for this”

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#127609
Oct 4, 2012
 

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Eagle12 wrote:
You can deny that fact but it took a hell of a lot of labor. There’s no way Egypt could have afforded to pay salaries to skilled workers. It was done by slaves, and those slaves left Egypt.
Not Hebrew ones.

The evidence suggests that the Jews were never captive in Egypt and therefore neither escaped from Egypt, nor wandered the deserts south of Canaan for forty years through

There is no evidence of a violent and cataclysmic fall of Jericho by invading forces from afar. The Jews were local indigenes. Therefore, there was no Abraham migrating from Ur, nor any Egyptian captivity, nor any exodus.

“The eye has it...”

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#127610
Oct 4, 2012
 

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lightbeamrider wrote:
That is not what majority scholarship says. That is not what the historians of old say.
I'm not trying to change history. There is no evidence for the Biblical Exodus.
QUOTING:
"A century of research by archaeologists and Egyptologists has found no evidence which can be directly related to the Exodus captivity and the escape and travels through the wilderness,[22] and most archaeologists have abandoned the archaeological investigation of Moses and the Exodus as "a fruitless pursuit". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Exodus

"Did the Red Sea Part? No Evidence, Archaeologists Say"
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/03/world/afric...

"Mainstream history and archaeology now consider the Exodus never happened, and the story is an entirely fictional narrative put together between the 8th and 5th centuries BCE. Christian and Jewish literalists do not accept this. http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Evidence_for_the...

"However, the archeological conclusions are not based primarily on the absence of Sinai evidence. Rather, they are based upon the study of settlement patterns in Israel itself. Surveys of ancient settlements--pottery remains and so forth--make it clear that there simply was no great influx of people around the time of the Exodus (given variously as between 1500-1200 BCE)."
http://www.beliefnet.com/Faiths/Judaism/2004/...

"No direct archaeological evidence has been found for Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, the 400-plus years in Egypt, or the Israelites’ miraculous exodus from slavery. No physical trace has been found of 40 years in the Sinai wilderness, and nothing outside of the bible shows Moses existed. The exodus cannot be treated as history because there is no support for it except the bible." http://www.askwhy.co.uk/truth/350Exodus.php

Rabbi David Wolpe shocked the Jewish world when he gave a Passover sermon that suggested that the Exodus as described in the Torah never took place. He has surveyed the available evidence from the Torah, the archeological record from the Sinai, and the archeological record from the Levant and concluded that the story of the Exodus is impossible. Rabbi Wolpe is not an atheist. In fact he has debated Sam Harris, a prominent atheist, yet he is convinced the Exodus is a fable.

Even some biblical "maximalist" scholars, such as William Dever (a graduate of Christian Theological Seminary), do not believe the Exodus occurred.
Dever says on page 1: "Finally, many of the biblical stories are legend-like and abound with miraculous and fantastic elements that strain the credulity of almost any modern reader of almost any religious persuasion. All these factors have contributed to the rise of doubts about the Bible's trustworthiness."

Ultimately, the only thing you need to know to debunk the Bible is what the adherents of the religions based on it think of it. That more than does the job." http://debunkingchristianity.blogspot.com/200...

The Biblical Exodus Story Is Fiction
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/staks-rosch/the...

THE EXODUS MYTH
http://www.concentric.net/~worgar/exodus.htm
lightbeamrider wrote:
You can't change history just because you don't like it.
You're the one that wants to deny or change history, not I.

You simply don't like it when that is illustrated.

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#127611
Oct 4, 2012
 

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scaritual wrote:
<quoted text>
I'm not trying to change history. There is no evidence for the Biblical Exodus.
QUOTING:
"A century of research by archaeologists and Egyptologists has found no evidence which can be directly related to the Exodus captivity and the escape and travels through the wilderness,[22] and most archaeologists have abandoned the archaeological investigation of Moses and the Exodus as "a fruitless pursuit". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Exodus
"Did the Red Sea Part? No Evidence, Archaeologists Say"
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/03/world/afric...
"Mainstream history and archaeology now consider the Exodus never happened, and the story is an entirely fictional narrative put together between the 8th and 5th centuries BCE. Christian and Jewish literalists do not accept this. http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Evidence_for_the...
"However, the archeological conclusions are not based primarily on the absence of Sinai evidence. Rather, they are based upon the study of settlement patterns in Israel itself. Surveys of ancient settlements--pottery remains and so forth--make it clear that there simply was no great influx of people around the time of the Exodus (given variously as between 1500-1200 BCE)."
http://www.beliefnet.com/Faiths/Judaism/2004/...
"No direct archaeological evidence has been found for Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, the 400-plus years in Egypt, or the Israelites’ miraculous exodus from slavery. No physical trace has been found of 40 years in the Sinai wilderness, and nothing outside of the bible shows Moses existed. The exodus cannot be treated as history because there is no support for it except the bible." http://www.askwhy.co.uk/truth/350Exodus.php
Rabbi David Wolpe shocked the Jewish world when he gave a Passover sermon that suggested that the Exodus as described in the Torah never took place. He has surveyed the available evidence from the Torah, the archeological record from the Sinai, and the archeological record from the Levant and concluded that the story of the Exodus is impossible. Rabbi Wolpe is not an atheist. In fact he has debated Sam Harris, a prominent atheist, yet he is convinced the Exodus is a fable.
Even some biblical "maximalist" scholars, such as William Dever (a graduate of Christian Theological Seminary), do not believe the Exodus occurred.
Dever says on page 1: "Finally, many of the biblical stories are legend-like and abound with miraculous and fantastic elements that strain the credulity of almost any modern reader of almost any religious persuasion. All these factors have contributed to the rise of doubts about the Bible's trustworthiness."
Ultimately, the only thing you need to know to debunk the Bible is what the adherents of the religions based on it think of it. That more than does the job." http://debunkingchristianity.blogspot.com/200...
The Biblical Exodus Story Is Fiction
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/staks-rosch/the...
THE EXODUS MYTH
http://www.concentric.net/~worgar/exodus.htm
<quoted text>
You're the one that wants to deny or change history, not I.
You simply don't like it when that is illustrated.
Amusing. You are the type that would think words on a blackboard were never written because they were erased.

The book can't be total fiction. Lasted too damned long for that, and the stories are just too off the wall to be fiction.

Israel was conquered by Egypt for a while. One of their vassal states. The area was full of skilled workers and artisans.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Pales...

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#127612
Oct 4, 2012
 

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scaritual wrote:
<quoted text>
I'm not trying to change history. There is no evidence for the Biblical Exodus.
QUOTING:
"A century of research by archaeologists and Egyptologists has found no evidence which can be directly related to the Exodus captivity and the escape and travels through the wilderness,[22] and most archaeologists have abandoned the archaeological investigation of Moses and the Exodus as "a fruitless pursuit". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Exodus
"Did the Red Sea Part? No Evidence, Archaeologists Say"
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/03/world/afric...
"Mainstream history and archaeology now consider the Exodus never happened, and the story is an entirely fictional narrative put together between the 8th and 5th centuries BCE. Christian and Jewish literalists do not accept this. http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Evidence_for_the...
"However, the archeological conclusions are not based primarily on the absence of Sinai evidence. Rather, they are based upon the study of settlement patterns in Israel itself. Surveys of ancient settlements--pottery remains and so forth--make it clear that there simply was no great influx of people around the time of the Exodus (given variously as between 1500-1200 BCE)."
http://www.beliefnet.com/Faiths/Judaism/2004/...
"No direct archaeological evidence has been found for Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, the 400-plus years in Egypt, or the Israelites’ miraculous exodus from slavery. No physical trace has been found of 40 years in the Sinai wilderness, and nothing outside of the bible shows Moses existed. The exodus cannot be treated as history because there is no support for it except the bible." http://www.askwhy.co.uk/truth/350Exodus.php
Rabbi David Wolpe shocked the Jewish world when he gave a Passover sermon that suggested that the Exodus as described in the Torah never took place. He has surveyed the available evidence from the Torah, the archeological record from the Sinai, and the archeological record from the Levant and concluded that the story of the Exodus is impossible. Rabbi Wolpe is not an atheist. In fact he has debated Sam Harris, a prominent atheist, yet he is convinced the Exodus is a fable.
Even some biblical "maximalist" scholars, such as William Dever (a graduate of Christian Theological Seminary), do not believe the Exodus occurred.
Dever says on page 1: "Finally, many of the biblical stories are legend-like and abound with miraculous and fantastic elements that strain the credulity of almost any modern reader of almost any religious persuasion. All these factors have contributed to the rise of doubts about the Bible's trustworthiness."
Ultimately, the only thing you need to know to debunk the Bible is what the adherents of the religions based on it think of it. That more than does the job." http://debunkingchristianity.blogspot.com/200...
The Biblical Exodus Story Is Fiction
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/staks-rosch/the...
THE EXODUS MYTH
http://www.concentric.net/~worgar/exodus.htm
<quoted text>
You're the one that wants to deny or change history, not I.
You simply don't like it when that is illustrated.
Look at 1 Kings 6:1. There is a marker there. 480 years after the sons of Israel came out of the land of Egypt. Solomon starts to build his temple. That is the Exodus you claim never happened. That puts it around 1446 BC. Amenhotep II. His firstborn son did not follow in daddy's footstep as Pharoah. You are quoting revisionist historians. Why would they use the Exodus as a marker if the event did not happen?

“cdesign proponentsists”

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#127613
Oct 4, 2012
 

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Dave Nelson wrote:
<quoted text>
You don't understand what gravity is or how it is distributed.
Einstein letter, set for auction, shows scientist challenging idea of God, being 'chosen'

http://www.foxnews.com/science/2012/10/03/his...

“The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honorable, but still primitive legends,” Einstein wrote in German in a 1954 letter that will be auctioned on eBay later this month. "No interpretation no matter how subtle can (for me) change this.”

Should I peruse Einstein's reasoning or your's?

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