Atheism requires as much faith as religion?

Atheism requires as much faith as religion? bearvspuma : The only problem with this rationalization is that ita s assuming all athiests are so because theya re intelligent in the ways of science and reasoning and all people that believe in a form of god are unintelligent. Read more

“Why does my ignorance”

Since: Mar 11

justify your deity?

#124067 Sep 20, 2012
lightbeamrider wrote:
<quoted text> Even if you believe God is evil. That is not proof God is not there. God evil/God no exist? God can be evil via your opinion and exist. You don't know the fate of that baby. You know less than 1% of all there is to know and you base your whole existence on what little knowledge you actually have relative to all there is to know.
- malaria is the number 1 killer of children worldwide
- tuberculosis infects 1/3rd of the entire population of the planet (and Total Drug Resistant TB has now evolved)

I could go on and on. If God exists, He is not moral in the way that contemporary humans are (if He Created malaria, anyways). If God had no choice but to Create malaria (because of constraints on how the universe works), then He's not all powerful. If God necessarily Created Satan, then God is as evil as Satan is (if God is Omnipotent and Omniscient). If God was constrained to Create Satan but could not change the outcome, God is not Omnipotent.

These are the "problems of evil."

But we can skip all those mental gymnastics and special pleading simply by describing life as evolved and not created. Life certainly looks evolved: 4 times as many parasite species as free living ones, ratios between caloric availability and biodiversity, phylogenetic lineages (evolutionary relationships), etc., etc.

“Why does my ignorance”

Since: Mar 11

justify your deity?

#124068 Sep 20, 2012
lightbeamrider wrote:
<quoted text> Yeah OK. I think folks like you troll for weak Christians. Then you all gang up on them. I think the universe was created. I do not know if it was just for us. That is a distortion on your part. Either way both of us cannot be right so that means one of us is wrong. I still think atheist give little more than lip service to first order truth. If God is not there then truth is relative and not really important anyway.
If there is no God, why is truth relative?

Since: Sep 10

Long Beach, CA

#124069 Sep 20, 2012
lightbeamrider wrote:
<quoted text> Yeah OK. I think folks like you troll for weak Christians. Then you all gang up on them. I think the universe was created. I do not know if it was just for us. That is a distortion on your part. Either way both of us cannot be right so that means one of us is wrong. I still think atheist give little more than lip service to first order truth. If God is not there then truth is relative and not really important anyway.
You don't give yourself, or the rest of us, the credit we deserve.

You prefer to give the credit to god.

To an imaginary being.

I find that very disappointing really.

More than that. It's very sad.

“Drive by wire”

Since: Dec 10

Location hidden

#124070 Sep 20, 2012
Hidingfromyou wrote:
<quoted text>
I'm sure we're going to find life on other planets. It's just kind of hard when they're all so far away.
The size of the universe never ceases to awe.

That is the problem.

http://www.ted.com/talks/freeman_dyson_says_l...

Since: Jun 12

Location hidden

#124072 Sep 20, 2012
Hidingfromyou wrote:
<quoted text>
If there is no God, why is truth relative?
Why is truth important? Because other groups think it is? Some groups can and will sacrifice truth for expedience every time. Both are equally valid. If there is no God as you assume.

“It's just a box of rain...”

Since: May 07

Knoxville, TN

#124073 Sep 20, 2012
Hidingfromyou wrote:
<quoted text>
I'm sure we're going to find life on other planets. It's just kind of hard when they're all so far away.
The size of the universe never ceases to awe.
I don't share your confidence, but only because I think it's likely that the nearest planet with any life on it is too far away for us to detect it with even the most sensitive instruments that we can devise and send on its exploratory way around the galaxy. Moreover, within the time frame of the universe, we are a short-lived species living on a short-lived planet. Life could have arisen and gone extinct on many planets around the universe before it did on earth and keep doing so after life on earth is gone.

Our window into the universe is so tiny.

“Why does my ignorance”

Since: Mar 11

justify your deity?

#124074 Sep 20, 2012
lightbeamrider wrote:
<quoted text> Why is truth important? Because other groups think it is? Some groups can and will sacrifice truth for expedience every time. Both are equally valid. If there is no God as you assume.
I asked "why is truth relative, if there is no God" not "why is truth important?"

It really depends on our definitions of "truth." If truth is objective reality, then we need to access it to provide technological advances, settle disputes, and so on.

Each human, each animal for that matter, experiences a subjective reality.

“Why does my ignorance”

Since: Mar 11

justify your deity?

#124075 Sep 20, 2012
NightSerf wrote:
<quoted text>
I don't share your confidence, but only because I think it's likely that the nearest planet with any life on it is too far away for us to detect it with even the most sensitive instruments that we can devise and send on its exploratory way around the galaxy. Moreover, within the time frame of the universe, we are a short-lived species living on a short-lived planet. Life could have arisen and gone extinct on many planets around the universe before it did on earth and keep doing so after life on earth is gone.
Our window into the universe is so tiny.
We can now detect planets with oxygen on them from very far away - I can only imagine that technology will improve.

:)

Since: Jun 12

Location hidden

#124076 Sep 20, 2012
Hidingfromyou wrote:
<quoted text>
I'm sure we're going to find life on other planets.
There is no evidence. You demonstrate faith.
ARGUING with IDIOTS

Redding, CA

#124077 Sep 20, 2012
Hidingfromyou wrote:
<quoted text>I asked "why is truth relative, if there is no God" not "why is truth important?"

It really depends on our definitions of "truth." If truth is objective reality, then we need to access it to provide technological advances, settle disputes, and so on.

Each human, each animal for that matter, experiences a subjective reality.
That doesn't change what is true!

Since: Sep 08

Westcliffe, CO

#124078 Sep 20, 2012
lightbeamrider wrote:
<quoted text> Yeah OK. I think folks like you troll for weak Christians. Then you all gang up on them. I think the universe was created. I do not know if it was just for us. That is a distortion on your part. Either way both of us cannot be right so that means one of us is wrong. I still think atheist give little more than lip service to first order truth. If God is not there then truth is relative and not really important anyway.
Lip service is all they do. They try to hijack the higher morality brought about by religion, and use it to confuse and attack.

What gives them away as to what they really are is their desire to destroy. There has been no real intellectuality displayed by them on these forums, other than the faux variety. They have no alternatives, just false words and illusions. Their whole act just lacks class.

Their religious beliefs are totally irrelevant. They just want to destroy.

Mad dogs.

Since: Sep 10

Long Beach, CA

#124079 Sep 20, 2012
lightbeamrider wrote:
<quoted text> There is no evidence. You demonstrate faith.
At the very least, call it an educated guess.

Since: Jun 12

Location hidden

#124080 Sep 20, 2012
Hidingfromyou wrote:
<quoted text>
- malaria is the number 1 killer of children worldwide
- tuberculosis infects 1/3rd of the entire population of the planet (and Total Drug Resistant TB has now evolved)
I could go on and on. If God exists, He is not moral in the way that contemporary humans are (if He Created malaria, anyways). If God had no choice but to Create malaria (because of constraints on how the universe works), then He's not all powerful. If God necessarily Created Satan, then God is as evil as Satan is (if God is Omnipotent and Omniscient). If God was constrained to Create Satan but could not change the outcome, God is not Omnipotent.
These are the "problems of evil."
But we can skip all those mental gymnastics and special pleading simply by describing life as evolved and not created. Life certainly looks evolved: 4 times as many parasite species as free living ones, ratios between caloric availability and biodiversity, phylogenetic lineages (evolutionary relationships), etc., etc.
I think your first error is to limit God to two characteristics, all knowing and all powerful God is also sovereign infinite and loving and holy. As it relates to the death of children God gives and takes away. Shall we accept the good from God and not accept adversity? We only know in part. These are just a few general observations. You assume life evolved and not created. You are just trading one set of complicated circumstances for another and with consequences. 4 times as many parasites is nice to know but where does it get you at the end of the day? When the bills come due? Anyways, i am running out of gas so i will think i will call it a night. Sweet dreams.

“What's left to defend?”

Since: Jan 11

Freedom

#124081 Sep 20, 2012
Hidingfromyou wrote:
<quoted text>
I asked "why is truth relative, if there is no God" not "why is truth important?"
It really depends on our definitions of "truth." If truth is objective reality, then we need to access it to provide technological advances, settle disputes, and so on.
Each human, each animal for that matter, experiences a subjective reality.
Here's my homework, Hidingsama.

Philosophically speaking, we can't claim ownership of absolute certainty. We don't always know exactly what we aren't able to know. Our limitations may be invisible to us. We operate under the assumption, or at least the confidence, that we can access most of what we need to discern the nature of the universe.

I think we need to express this point in as many ways as possible. Our efforts, specifically in science, lead us to conclusions and inclinations that are useful. They're so useful, they may have saved the human race several times already. Our inability to claim certain knowledge, does not prevent us from reaping the benefits of our efforts. We only have facts and theories because they have not failed. They survive only when they are useful and productive.

Subjective truths based on subjective experiences may be useful to the individual. They might be, or, they could be damaging. It depends on how you set priorities. I could be very happy living in some sort of fantastical delusion. That subjective experience could be more fulfilling than any real experience I could have. But because I value authenticity, it would be meaningless to me. And if I were to find out later, that my experiences were false, it would be like a poison.

This is why I value rational skepticism. My highest priority is authenticity. If I know reality, I can then choose how to deal with it. I choose to accept what is given, in the way that I understand it, but never take ownership over it. I feel I must remain open minded enough to accept whatever new reality is presented to me. With my priority, I can see no other way. Rational skepticism is the only tool that will give me what I need.

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#124082 Sep 20, 2012
lightbeamrider wrote:
<quoted text> Yeah OK. I think folks like you troll for weak Christians. Then you all gang up on them. I think the universe was created. I do not know if it was just for us. That is a distortion on your part. Either way both of us cannot be right so that means one of us is wrong. I still think atheist give little more than lip service to first order truth. If God is not there then truth is relative and not really important anyway.
What other conclusion was I supposed to make from what you were saying? Making grand claims about how special earth is in relation to the rest of the universe - forgive me for thinking that you think we're special.

So, without god, there is no morality and no truth? Now you're trolling. Morality exists without god. Logic and truth exist without god.

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#124083 Sep 20, 2012
Dave Nelson wrote:
<quoted text>
Lip service is all they do. They try to hijack the higher morality brought about by religion, and use it to confuse and attack.
What gives them away as to what they really are is their desire to destroy. There has been no real intellectuality displayed by them on these forums, other than the faux variety. They have no alternatives, just false words and illusions. Their whole act just lacks class.
Their religious beliefs are totally irrelevant. They just want to destroy.
Mad dogs.
Still think you might be a troll.

“Why does my ignorance”

Since: Mar 11

justify your deity?

#124084 Sep 20, 2012
lightbeamrider wrote:
<quoted text> There is no evidence. You demonstrate faith.
There's lots of evidence:

1. we've detected tons of planets around stars, and we're getting better at detecting the smaller ones

2. all our sciences tell us that how the world works - physics, biology, etc.- should be the same everywhere

3. so we should predict life on other planets from our science

If we don't find it, with a reasonable search, then we can reassess our science.

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#124085 Sep 20, 2012
Tide with Beach wrote:
<quoted text>
Here's my homework, Hidingsama.
Subjective truths based on subjective experiences may be useful to the individual. They might be, or, they could be damaging. It depends on how you set priorities. I could be very happy living in some sort of fantastical delusion. That subjective experience could be more fulfilling than any real experience I could have. But because I value authenticity, it would be meaningless to me. And if I were to find out later, that my experiences were false, it would be like a poison.
Very well put. I often find myself truly envying what appears to be religious bliss - that feeling I imagine many religious people must get from knowing that someone is looking out for them and has a plan for them and will bring them to paradise when they die... But no matter how wonderful that state of mind appears from the outside - I know I could never experience it or enjoy it because it would feel fake and unfounded to me.

“Why does my ignorance”

Since: Mar 11

justify your deity?

#124086 Sep 20, 2012
lightbeamrider wrote:
<quoted text> I think your first error is to limit God to two characteristics, all knowing and all powerful God is also sovereign infinite and loving and holy. As it relates to the death of children God gives and takes away.
The question I'm asking is "does the world around you look as if your god exists?"

Many Christians call their god "good." Some religious scholars - who accept evolution, btw - define God as "the perfect being, perfect morality."

How are a perfect being with a perfect morality and the suffering of innocents compatible?

If God exists, I can only come up with two possibilities:

1. God is not perfect
2. God has different morality than we do

However, since I don't believe God exists, these aren't issues for me. Biological science explains illness and suffering quite well.
Shall we accept the good from God and not accept adversity?
This is a question that only pertains to believers.

Although that you ask it speaks to your faith - it is a question that only a faithful could pose. Faith, as I mentioned, is in not putting constraints on reality and God. When you require reality to fit into a narrow world view, then you are not showing faith. When you accept it, as you appear to, then you have faith.
We only know in part. These are just a few general observations. You assume life evolved and not created.
It's not an assumption. It's an evidence and hypotheses tested position; a deduced position.
You are just trading one set of complicated circumstances for another and with consequences.
Lacking an understanding of biological science means that you cannot fully comprehend what you have just written - for you don't understand why biological science uses evolution as its guiding framework theory. Had you enough understanding of evolution to both explain and critique it through evidence based arguments, you'd be in a better position to make statements like the above.

So...I've read your Bible 4 times. Won't you read my books on evolution? Then you can offer valid critique :)
4 times as many parasites is nice to know but where does it get you at the end of the day?
It demonstrates how life fits into the 2nd law of thermodynamics, how life evolves to advantage of every available piece of energy.
When the bills come due?
In the context of parasites, your comment doesn't make any sense to me.
Anyways, i am running out of gas so i will think i will call it a night. Sweet dreams.
Cheers, have a good one.

“What's left to defend?”

Since: Jan 11

Freedom

#124087 Sep 20, 2012
Do religious believers care about credibility? Are they looking for the truth?

I don't think so. I'll give some examples with Christianity. I've heard several Christians talk about their Christian beliefs, stating things that did not come from the official Christian belief myth. They either made these up themselves, or heard them from others. Christians, not known for being very skeptical, would have little reason to reject the nice and optimistic beliefs being passed around.

If there's an interested Christian, or someone with Biblical knowledge, who would like to clarify some of these things for me, I'd appreciate it.

Do people in Heaven watch over the living? Do they ever help their family members from beyond the grave? Do they cry, up there in Heaven, when their loved ones are sad?

Do angels have personalities? What do they do on a daily basis? Does everyone have their own angel? Does everyone have an angel, and a demon, specific to them, that stays with them always, pulling them towards either good or evil at all times?

I've heard the answers to these questions before, coming from Christians. Not all Christians believe the same things. They tend to believe whatever they want to believe, and there's nothing to stop them, because they're operating on faith.

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