Atheism requires as much faith as religion?

Atheism requires as much faith as religion? bearvspuma : The only problem with this rationalization is that ita s assuming all athiests are so because theya re intelligent in the ways of science and reasoning and all people that believe in a form of god are unintelligent. Full Story

“Life may be sweeter for this”

Since: Nov 08

Fennario

#9738 Mar 19, 2011
LOL wrote:
Can intelligence protect you from evil?
Can it make you feel powerful within?
Does it drains your morales?
Can ignorance or stupidity protect you from evil? They might let you feel powerful when you are not. Do ignorance and stupidity drain your morale?
LOL wrote:
Please everyone convert into a religion it provides HOPE.
Any religion?

And why do you say please? How does it serve either of us if I became say a Jainist today? I'm already happy and hopeful. I might not be after that.

“Life may be sweeter for this”

Since: Nov 08

Fennario

#9739 Mar 19, 2011
Hidingfromyou wrote:
<quoted text>
I was born a virgin birth, from abiogenesis. Before me, there was not the Word. Before me, there was not the God. I was not, and then I was. And when I was, came the word and the grace but never, alas never the god.
And I looked upon my house and all the people in it and trembled for they, and that house, and all in it, had existed before I did....before I was.
And that is worthy of fright, humbling.
And I can imagine something that would connect me to the before and to the after - a deity perhaps to give my time meaning.
Yet my mind is cruel and plays no such tricks on me.
But believe it if you must, believe it if it holds your fragile world together,
And we, those who are stronger, will carry this burden and eat it, we will enjoy this time we have here
bounded by ends, neither of which is remembered, neither of which is whole, we are best in the middle but most near the end
Very nice. Original?

“Life may be sweeter for this”

Since: Nov 08

Fennario

#9740 Mar 19, 2011
ScienceRules wrote:
<quoted text>
There is a book recently out (and damn, I cannot find the link) that essentially predicts near term successful abiogenesis in the lab BUT, drumroll.......... says all this will prove is that intelligent design (read, scientists being involved) is necessary for creation. I have been predicting this for years.
Interesting. Of course they will. Whatever happens, you know that reason and evidence will be ineffective. Worse, its use will be used an argument for a god.
ScienceRules wrote:
All we can hope for is that the dogmatic religious fundamentalists who will gradually be more and more marginalized in modern global society, whether in pockets of the USA or in sovereign states, don't get their hands on WMD.
There is only one way to prevail - attrition. Religious people are producing more atheist offspring than atheists are producing religious children. And people on the fence are going to religion in a lower proportion of cases. The die hards like bossdrop will be theists no matter what they see. But they'll die off and their numbers will wane. We can even approximate at what rate, given the ARIS data comparing 1990, 2001 and 2008.

Here are the raw numbers:
http://www.americanreligionsurvey-aris.org/AR...

Here's a summary discussion:
http://www.usatoday.com/news/religion/2009-03...

Between 1990 and 2008, Christians fell from 84% of Americans to 74%, and the irreligious category doubled from 8% to 15%. That rate may begin accelerating as atheism becomes more prevalent and more socially acceptable. But even if the doubling rate remains 18 years, the irreligious will outnumber everybody else combined in about 32 years :

15%(2^n)= 51%
(2^n)= 51/15
n log2 = log (51/15)
n = log (51/15)/ log 2
n = 1.77

Assuming I did that correctly, that's 1.77 more doublings at 18 years each, or about 32 years. With acceleration, maybe as little as 25 years.

“Life may be sweeter for this”

Since: Nov 08

Fennario

#9741 Mar 19, 2011
bossdrop wrote:
Of course you want it to be two different issues and I understand why you keep repeating yourself to separate yourself from what you are and what you're a part of. Its your embarrassment of being link to an asinine belief system reason you want to keep it separate, LOL. I don't blame you, you do look like an azz if I may so so myself, putting your confidence in an unprovable theory and classic pseudo-science. But you can't separate yourself from your beliefs and what those beliefs are based on...hard as you may to run from it ;)
You're amazed at how everything fits into a coherent whole? what does that have to do with the origination of the human species?
Can you focus your mind, its not that hard Atheist. We are discussing the scientific evidence that creates life from non life. If you can't produce it, your religion and belief system is a myth.
You can't run from it, you're part of what you're a part of, an Asinine nonsensical belief system and religion.
The courts says you're part of a religion, and the belief system your religion is based on, is Asinine. Fact.
Unconvert???...LOL
You can't rattle my cage Atheist. You lack the mental fortitude to do so. I see you as a child, I see you as one with a mental disease, I see you as Ill and your intelligence subpar.
what else do you have <grin>
Phantom2010 wrote:
<quoted text>Nice summary, job well done. Great illuminations, good information including the studies into Atheists having a mental disease. Splendid job exposing Atheism for the fraud that it is. I respect your strong defense of Jesus Christ, Christianity and the bible.
You are one of the best I have seen to take on these Atheists and viciously spank them in such a publicly humiliating way. This post of yours I'm responding to is a great conclusion.
Nothing left for me to see, I'm moving on, you keep up the good work if you choose to continue.
You're so pathetic.

This is obviously one sock stroking its mate.

For starters, your tell is your capital-A "Atheist"

Then there's the time you forgot which sock you were wearing and accidentally posted as Phantom2010 here:

http://www.topix.com/forum/religion/atheism/T...

Let it be known how utterly pathetic the Christian is. And not very good at deception, either, though his Lord knows he tries.

Aren't you tired of getting your ass kicked repeatedly? How much humiliation is enough for you?

“Life may be sweeter for this”

Since: Nov 08

Fennario

#9742 Mar 19, 2011
scaritual wrote:
<quoted text>
For some strange reason I'm reminded of Sola with this one.
You don't think Drop is Sola's brother do you?
With obviously less stamina.
Maybe, but I get a different vibe. But I can be fooled. Bossdrop is undoubtedly Phantom2010, however.

“The eye has it...”

Since: May 09

Russell's Teapot

#9743 Mar 19, 2011
It aint necessarily so wrote:
<quoted text>
Maybe, but I get a different vibe. But I can be fooled. Bossdrop is undoubtedly Phantom2010, however.
My observation was only to point out the repetitive nature and dogmatic statements of the two.

"if I say it enough times, maybe they'll believe it"

I looked at the link you provided a few posts above, and I'll agree at the Phantom/Drop sock party.

“The eye has it...”

Since: May 09

Russell's Teapot

#9744 Mar 19, 2011
Is there anything the theist won't resort to?

Never mind, history pretty much covers the answer to that question.

“Life may be sweeter for this”

Since: Nov 08

Fennario

#9745 Mar 19, 2011
spudgun wrote:
<quoted text>
Christians are clearly suffering mental disease.
They suffer from dis-ease due to the mental virus know as religion. religion is a meme, a mind virus.
pls allow me to explain
religion arose in our evolutionary past to deal with problems of survival and reproduction. concepts of supernatural agents arose in the tendency of humans to overdetect the presence of other humans or predators.
this is why people feel something sneaking up on them, but it vanishes when you look around. a natural occurance
its also know the presence of dead bodies creates an uncomfortable cognitive state in which dreams. this is why ancient ppl thought the dead are somehow still around.
Another human predisposition is to see misfortune as someone's responsibility rather than the outcome of processes. This results in the tendency of humans to try to interact and bargain with their supernatural agents.
In addition ancient human societies invented imgainary sky gods to account for natural processes like a clap of thunder, earthquakes, etc. yahweh is one of these imaginary deities.
This to me accounts for the origin of religion.
Good analysis.

Modern religion seems to me to be the meeting of two processes, a ground up one, and then a top down one to exploit that.

The first is like you say. People see living bodies and dead bodies, and can do the math, which in this case is subtraction. The difference between them is a disembodied self. And it's easy to see examples of them everywhere, as when the wind suddenly gusts and dead leaves go rolling by. Thus spirits.

Worship seems to derive from fear of the beasts, who, before the invention of the abstract concept intelligence, were perceived as our superiors - superior strength, gift of flight, superior speed, etc. These animals were worshiped in appeasement.

As man learned to dominate the beasts, and came to understand his superior place in the scheme of things, his gods evolved into men. In Minoan culture, this manifested as minotaurs and centaurs. The Egyptians had god like Anubis and Horus.

These became all human pantheons, such as the Greek one (Zeus et al. in Olympus) and the Viking one (Odin et al. in Valhalla). Eventually, this morphed into monotheism. Somewhere along the way, the flesh and blood animals - probably jackals for the Egyptians and boars for the ancient Jews, whose proscription against eating pork seems more likely to arise from this kind of thinking than from some knowledge or fear of trichinosis as we are often told, a bogus sounding reason i you ask me - became spirits.

This all natural and organic, what I call bottom up, or grass roots.

Then come the priests - originally "ordained" to make the sacrifices and give the prayers - who organize, and attach to this like mites and leeches, dragging such people by their noses. This is the top down hierarchy, taking advantage of a natural propensity to believe, to worship, and to fear. And to collect tithes.

At about this time, I imagine everybody who worked, worked every day, and considered it sacred. How are you going to get these people to come in once a week with their wallets? Simple - you set aside one day each week, make it the holiest of them all, and forbid working on it. You do this by saying that even the god took off one day to rest.

Did you ever wonder why such a ridiculous pronouncement was made? follow the money. Always follow the money.

Once the god concept was firmly established, and the priests had inserted themselves between the simple people and the bogeyman, the rules from the god just kept accumulating, always for protecting the ruling class' interests.

That's my cynical take.

“Life may be sweeter for this”

Since: Nov 08

Fennario

#9746 Mar 19, 2011
Les Claypool wrote:
Thats the problem with people like you. NOTHING, will prove it for you because you simply do not want it. Imagine the horror if you realized there is a moral authority that has control over your life and death.
The problem is with people like you. Nothing - no evidence nor cogent argument - can penetrate faith, which as Bob indicated with his Wiki link to antiprocess, is impervious to these.

Imagine the horror if you discovered that you had to take responsibility for and control of your own life like an adult. You people have been infantilized to manage you better.

Antiprocess :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antiprocess

Christians impervious to reason :
http://www.topix.com/forum/religion/atheism/T...

The infantilizing of the Christians (two posts later):
http://www.topix.com/forum/religion/atheism/T...

As long as the Christians remain in a permanent childlike state - always being watched, always being judged, always in trouble and needing forgiveness, daddy/god is infallible and always right and smart, etc.- they are easily managed, like kids. And the only problem is the same - minding, obedience. Hence the continual focus on free will, and never in a positive way. Free will is always something that needs to be tamed. "There's a good boy"

They keep you ignorant, fearful, and feeling like you need the god the way a child needs its parents, however abusive.

“Life may be sweeter for this”

Since: Nov 08

Fennario

#9747 Mar 19, 2011
Les Claypool wrote:
I have complete trust and faith in something I can not see.
Sucker.

“The eye has it...”

Since: May 09

Russell's Teapot

#9748 Mar 19, 2011
It aint necessarily so wrote:
<quoted text>
Good analysis.
Modern religion seems to me to be the meeting of two processes, a ground up one, and then a top down one to exploit that.
The first is like you say. People see living bodies and dead bodies, and can do the math, which in this case is subtraction. The difference between them is a disembodied self. And it's easy to see examples of them everywhere, as when the wind suddenly gusts and dead leaves go rolling by. Thus spirits.
Worship seems to derive from fear of the beasts, who, before the invention of the abstract concept intelligence, were perceived as our superiors - superior strength, gift of flight, superior speed, etc. These animals were worshiped in appeasement.
As man learned to dominate the beasts, and came to understand his superior place in the scheme of things, his gods evolved into men. In Minoan culture, this manifested as minotaurs and centaurs. The Egyptians had god like Anubis and Horus.
These became all human pantheons, such as the Greek one (Zeus et al. in Olympus) and the Viking one (Odin et al. in Valhalla). Eventually, this morphed into monotheism. Somewhere along the way, the flesh and blood animals - probably jackals for the Egyptians and boars for the ancient Jews, whose proscription against eating pork seems more likely to arise from this kind of thinking than from some knowledge or fear of trichinosis as we are often told, a bogus sounding reason i you ask me - became spirits.
This all natural and organic, what I call bottom up, or grass roots.
Then come the priests - originally "ordained" to make the sacrifices and give the prayers - who organize, and attach to this like mites and leeches, dragging such people by their noses. This is the top down hierarchy, taking advantage of a natural propensity to believe, to worship, and to fear. And to collect tithes.
At about this time, I imagine everybody who worked, worked every day, and considered it sacred. How are you going to get these people to come in once a week with their wallets? Simple - you set aside one day each week, make it the holiest of them all, and forbid working on it. You do this by saying that even the god took off one day to rest.
Did you ever wonder why such a ridiculous pronouncement was made? follow the money. Always follow the money.
Once the god concept was firmly established, and the priests had inserted themselves between the simple people and the bogeyman, the rules from the god just kept accumulating, always for protecting the ruling class' interests.
That's my cynical take.


Something you might enjoy watching. I ran across this about a week or so ago. Its historically accurate and supported. You mentioned the Minotaur of the Minoans. When the Jews were polytheistic previous to monotheism, one of the gods they worshiped was Ba'al(a brother of Yahweh), whose icon was a half man/half bull.

All religion evolved from those animistic/anthropomorphic sources. Into the thing people follow today.

As you obviously know, and most atheists do as well.

A subject that's a "pet" interest for myself. I've mentioned it here on the forum in brief on a few occasions, but the vid above presents more(although not all) than I could in 3-4 posts.

Plus its just a few minutes, and a slick production.

I throw the vid at every Christian/Abrahmic adherent I can because this IS the historical reality of their religion.

“Life may be sweeter for this”

Since: Nov 08

Fennario

#9749 Mar 19, 2011
Les Claypool wrote:
<quoted text>So she faked being blind for 50 yrs or she keeps guessing on what objects are in front of her, thus, fooling people into thinking she can see.
Again, NOTHING will convince you people. And thats ok. We all have free will and we all need to make a decision.
Your church has a history of lying. We don't believe you anymore, especially when a story is magical and self-serving. I wouldn't believe you if you gave me the time. You people lie trough your teeth for Jesus as if you think it's honorable, as if you think that we don't notice or care.

And you just admitted that you believe things without reason or evidence:
"I have complete trust and faith in something I can not see."

Why would I believe you or your church?

“The eye has it...”

Since: May 09

Russell's Teapot

#9750 Mar 19, 2011
http://www.theology.edu/ugarbib.htm

A source from a theology seminary.

Yeah, like a theology source means much. But it does illustrate they are aware of this, and they explain it away.

“Turning coffee into theorems”

Since: Dec 06

Trapped inside a Klein Bottle

#9751 Mar 19, 2011
It aint necessarily so wrote:
<quoted text>
Those quotes about what is impossible should be very instructive. Once one is aware of how foolish they are, it becomes ridiculous to make statements like, "There cannot be life from non-life. It can't happen." - bossdrop
But he'll do it again. And again and again.
==========
If you like apposite anagrams of names, I've got a few for you:
Clint Eastwood = Old west action.
Whitney Houston = Shut it now, honey
Pat Robertson = Not pro-breast
Britney Spears = Bray, siren pest!
Charles Manson = Slasher con man
George W. Bush = He bugs Gore = He grew bogus
Salman Rushdie = Read, Shun Islam
David Letterman = Nerd Amid Late TV
Howard Stern = Retard Shown
Jim Morrison = Mr. Mojo risin'
Elvis = Lives
Princess Diana = I End as car spin = Ascend in Paris
Tonya Harding = Do an angry hit
Pamela Anderson = a lad, a porn, semen
William Shakespeare = I'll make a wise phrase
This site will anagram your name:
http://www.deanjackson.dj/nameanagram/
It came up with "helpless agent" for mine, but I already had one better than that: "Length pleases"
It aint necessarily so = Cites no saintly raise

<I have no idea what that means>

“Life may be sweeter for this”

Since: Nov 08

Fennario

#9752 Mar 19, 2011
Les Claypool wrote:
NOTHING will convince you people. And thats ok. We all have free will and we all need to make a decision.
Can you feel the frustration here with the free will thing?
Les Claypool wrote:
What's weird is people like you know that no one worships Mary. But you think it anyway. believe what ya want.
Yeah, we will, and it pisses you off. Disobedience! Accountability! Submission!- You people are a one note tune.

These were consecutive posts, BTW, 9624 and 9625. I'm sure there will be many more like it.

“Life may be sweeter for this”

Since: Nov 08

Fennario

#9753 Mar 19, 2011
Les Claypool wrote:
....before some one posts "no limbs have ever grown back", let me say that in no way is this a reason to dismiss all other miracles. There are too many proven credible.
Well, you got it in before I posted it.

But failure to cure that which cannot be faked is EXTREMELY significant, given that one purpose of miracles is to convince nonbelievers. Your god never behaves like one. He always behaves more like a street magician : "Pick a card, any card!"

Your god would rather guess someone's weight than his name. I wonder why?

“Life may be sweeter for this”

Since: Nov 08

Fennario

#9754 Mar 19, 2011
wilderide wrote:
<quoted text>
Actually I wasn't referring just to our own limited senses. We can't observe atoms without special equipment, for example. I'm talking about things which we cannot observe or perceive at all, even with the aid of augmenting equipment. As we discover new matter, physical laws, etc, we progress and develop new ways of observing and recording such things. But it seems reasonable to suppose that there might be many things and processes that might be beyond our understanding or powers of observation, and it seems pointless to speculate about such things.
Whatever might be said to exist in some sense but which cannot affect any measurable aspect of our reality is functionally equivalent to nonexistent and can be safely ignored. It can never matter.

Everything else is potentially discoverable by whatever effect it has. We know that such a thing exists when we see its footprint, and cannot explain it with the known. Thus, an acceleration in the rate of expansion, previously unsuspected and unmeasured, was discovered, and a new form of energy posited to account for it.

If there is yet another form of energy causally disconnected from our reality, unable to interact with or modify it, and as yet undiscovered, who cares? We never will discover it, and it will never help us, hurt us, or in any other way affect us - by definition.

“Life may be sweeter for this”

Since: Nov 08

Fennario

#9755 Mar 19, 2011
Les Claypool wrote:
I just think the mathematical odds of it happening at the precise time upon receiving communion is worthy of belief.
But your judgment is horrible. You believe things for no apparent reason : "I have complete trust and faith in something I can not see."

“Life may be sweeter for this”

Since: Nov 08

Fennario

#9756 Mar 19, 2011
Les Claypool wrote:
Personally, I think we are in our last days.
Quelle surprise!

Here are a couple of interesting questions:

[1] Are you aware of any Christian ever that didn't believe that:

"Even so, when you see these things happening, you know that it is near, right at the door. I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened."
- Mark 13:29-30

[2] Are you aware of even one that has ever been right?

But now you, who believes without reason, are convinced that these are the end times. I'll alert the media.

“Life may be sweeter for this”

Since: Nov 08

Fennario

#9757 Mar 19, 2011
Les Claypool wrote:
People get smacked on the head and regain their sight.
How about their common sense? Do they ever get that back? Because if so, perhaps you should butt your unhelmeted head into a brick wall from a full speed sprint until you're right again. The worse that can happen would be a coma, which I would call a wash.

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