Atheism requires as much faith as religion?

There are 20 comments on the Jul 18, 2009, Webbunny tumblelog story titled Atheism requires as much faith as religion?. In it, Webbunny tumblelog reports that:

Atheism requires as much faith as religion? bearvspuma : The only problem with this rationalization is that ita s assuming all athiests are so because theya re intelligent in the ways of science and reasoning and all people that believe in a form of god are unintelligent.

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Since: May 10

Location hidden

#212263 Feb 13, 2014
Richardfs wrote:
<quoted text>
So he wasn't a NAZI.
ps. We all make typos.
You seem confused.

Since: May 10

Location hidden

#212264 Feb 13, 2014
It aint necessarily so wrote:
<quoted text>
There is no reason to have feelings for a church - just its victims, which includes its adherents. If some people are feeling a bit beleaguered defending the church, that is by choice. We expect them to consider our arguments, reconsider their own choices, and make rational and compassionate ones in place of simply accepting ideas on faith. If they can't or won't do so, then they'll just have to accept the scorn of those of us who have.
I do empathize with them. They probably got to where they are with no malice, and in obedience to people and ideas that they trusted. But they'll have to take that up with those people. We have to concern ourselves with societal health and the victims of the church, not the plight of people caught in the crossfire of a transforming cultural paradigm, who, as I alluded, are also its victims - albeit willing ones.
I compliment your tone.

I recall when it was not this way.

But I still don't like Grateful Dead.

Since: May 10

Location hidden

#212265 Feb 13, 2014
Aerobatty wrote:
<quoted text>
They're gonna beat us up?
If you like that sort of thing, I could find time to knock you around a bit.

First, I owe Bongo an ass whoopin'.

Should I pencil you in, Aunt Betty?

Since: May 10

Location hidden

#212266 Feb 13, 2014
It aint necessarily so wrote:
<quoted text>
<quoted text>
But if you think that you need to try to steal the glorious achievements of science to validate your mythology despite the fact that their accounts of the history of the universe have unbelievably little in common, or to offer prophecies of the quality of Chinese fortune cookies as evidence of a supernatural provenance for it - if these are your best arguments - then what you are actually saying is that you have nothing at all.
Notice his tacit admission that the science is correct. He is hoping to make his mythology appear to conform to it.
But that's a pretty tough job considering how little the biblical creation myth resembles the scientific account. Each contains many, many ideas, with almost no overlap. He came up with the universe and life having a beginning, like every other creation myth, but absolutely nothing else. There is no other idea in either account that can be found in the other.
Regarding the advent of human life, he claimed that his bible anticipated that mankind is made from "dirt." But that is not the scientific account. Our composition resembles the oceans in which our ancient ancestors evolve more. His bible would have done better if it claimed that his god had fashioned us from the sea with its water, ions, and organic molecules. I'll bet one of the other myths got that part right, which would make it twice as prophetic as the Genesis myth.
All right then. Add some sea water and call it mud. Mud-to-Man. Still quite a story.

Did you know about this cure for cancer?

http://www.rifeenergymedicine.com/difference....

“Life may be sweeter for this”

Since: Nov 08

Fennario

#212267 Feb 13, 2014
Bongo wrote:
<quoted text> "cold rain and snow" today.
Well she's coming down the stairs combin' back her yellow hair, and I ain't goin' be treated this old way.

Since: May 10

Location hidden

#212268 Feb 13, 2014
blacklagoon wrote:
<quoted text>Continued:
4.) Hitler made references to your God in many of his speeches, the word GOD was present on the belt buckle of every single soldier in his army. The Catholic Church celebrated his birthday on many occasions, and he was NEVER excommunicated by the Church for his crimes against mankind.
Hitler is simply dead, as are all those who's lives have ended, there is no evidence that life continues after death and certainly no evidence for either heaven or hell. I'm always at a loss to figure out why you think some kind of cosmic justice exists.
You doctrine is so dysfunctional, here is a prime example.
Rejecting Jesus and or God is considered the one unpardonable sin punishable by being throw into those lakes of fire you think exist. I could in fact be a very decent human being, a loving husband and father, going out of my way the help the needy, give to charities, but because I am unable, due to the critical thinking ability given to me by this God, to believe in Jesus or God, I am condemned to eternal torture.
Now we have a serial killer who specializes in young children. He lives to commit horrendous acts of cruelty. He kidnaps, and then slowly, ever so slowly tortures them. He keeps them alive for days and weeks, the agony for these poor children never seems to end. And when he tires of his sick game, he rapes and then murders them. A prime candidate for eternal torture right? Wrong, all this sick individual must do is to be "saved" renounce his sins and accept Jesus Christ as his savior, and he has punched his ticket to eternal bliss in heaven.
It's a sick and twisted doctrine, how anyone with any intelligence can accept such bullshit will remain a mystery to me.
You didn't explain in there anywhere how dinosaurs reproduced with no DNA.

Teasing us?

“Turning coffee into theorems”

Since: Dec 06

Trapped inside a Klein Bottle

#212269 Feb 13, 2014
It aint necessarily so wrote:
<quoted text>
<quoted text>
I think my thesis in that subthread has been that KiMare has invested considerable resources in a promise that not only cannot be validated and need not be kept, but which comes from a source that has made other promises that haven't been kept.
You seem to be saying that faith in scripture - choosing to accept it as authoritative - is an adequate basis for trusting it. Why isn't faith in any other contradictory and mutually exclusive position just as valid?
As I have recently pointed out, and Bongo has confirmed without coming straight out, is that Bongo really does not believe what he said about scripture and strongly held belief. He admitted that even though a Muslim has a strongly held belief in the Quran the Muslim is wrong.

Which admission completely destroys Bongo's argument that strongly held beliefs are right.

“Turning coffee into theorems”

Since: Dec 06

Trapped inside a Klein Bottle

#212270 Feb 13, 2014
KiMare wrote:
Smirk.
This accompanies a great many of KiMare's posts.

Clearly KiMare does not believe it when the Bible says humility is a virtue.

“Turning coffee into theorems”

Since: Dec 06

Trapped inside a Klein Bottle

#212271 Feb 13, 2014
Bongo wrote:
<quoted text> Sometimes you have to trim the heard, for good reason. Just like when those scientists killed that healthy giraffe the other day.
This is one of the WORST things apologetics has to say. Utterly immoral.

“Turning coffee into theorems”

Since: Dec 06

Trapped inside a Klein Bottle

#212272 Feb 13, 2014
Bongo wrote:
<quoted text> Im offering no defense for the catholics but I am suprised at that prejudiced atheist indignation that majors on a few hundred kids violated by a few priests yet does not seem to consider millions starving to death and subject to poverty, and drug and alcohol abusing parents, to name just a few maladies. Religion with all its problems is a better way.
A few hundred???

You are sadly misinformed.

And even one, abused in the name of religion, is one too many.

More awful apologetics from Bongo.
blacklagoon

Hyde Park, MA

#212274 Feb 13, 2014
Bongo wrote:
<quoted text> "cold rain and snow" today. 1) Promises not fulfilled yet? 2) They are as valid, chose one. One may not be as good as another. I don't pray God will drop money in my lap. I pray for wisdom and opportunity.
Why would anyone "pray" for wisdom and opportunity? Are you so weak willed that you can't acquire wisdom on your own? We make opportunities for ourselves for the most part. The lazy ass mindset that an outside agent is needed to achieve anything is laughable. The intelligent and confident person gets off their asses and ceases what they want, they don't curl up in a little ball and mew for help. Grow a pair will ya!!!

“Life may be sweeter for this”

Since: Nov 08

Fennario

#212275 Feb 13, 2014
Divinity Surgeon wrote:
Whether you still work or not, you serve/d humanity.
I agree. We can serve others at many junctures in every day, even if just with a kind or encouraging word.
blacklagoon

Hyde Park, MA

#212276 Feb 13, 2014
Bongo wrote:
<quoted text> 1) Spiritual things , which science has limited understanding, should not be insinuated as majic. There is no abra cadabra. 2) Ok, but as the story goes, God created man and has made a prescription for his behavior. Righteousness according to him.
Science has NO understanding about "spiritual things" as they, whatever the f--ck they are, are non-existent. If you want to claim something from the supernatural realm is real, then the ONLY option you have is to call it magic.

Yes, the "STORY" goes.blah blah........A mythical being scooped up a pile of dirt, blew on it, and out popped a fully formed human male. Sounds a lot like godmagic to me. It actually sounds like the most ridiculous explanation for life ever invented. To believe such points to a serious mental disorder. Most people simple accept this premiss without REALLY thinking about it. But taking the time to actually absorb the claim, has to make the intelligent person realize just how foolish such a claim really is.

Since: Sep 10

London, UK

#212277 Feb 13, 2014
Buck Crick wrote:
<quoted text>
I compliment your tone.
I recall when it was not this way.
But I still don't like Grateful Dead.
And here I thought you were tone deaf.

Hey, I saw some great Vincents today.

I know you do like those.

“Life may be sweeter for this”

Since: Nov 08

Fennario

#212278 Feb 13, 2014
Bongo wrote:
Btw a fiend of mine who is a professional just returned from Cabo recently. Said he felt safe but would never go to the mainland. A local traveler made that mistake recently.
We have now somehow managed to survive 1649 consecutive days here.

I watch the American news from time to time and count my blessings.

I became aware this week of another story in Florida where a man shot repeatedly into a car full of teens because he said he feared for his life, which is apparently a defense in Florida however insubstantial your reason.
Bongo wrote:
What about this pessimism? Is it really empathy? Remember, and I surmise you should know more than most, many people seek God in severe adversity. There are a lot of hurting people out there. It can take many years to mature in the faith. I don't think nihilism is a proper description of it. A person can traverse life with the rose colored glasses, are you claiming that's better?
Is there nothing between rose colored and shit stained glasses? Is it only one or the other?

And yes, it is better to be able to see and appreciate the good in the world than to be convinced that it is all bad, doomed, corrupt, dangerous, and failed. I think it's a noxious worldview that serves those that benefit from fearful, angry, frustrated and divided people, which includes both the church and some cynical, selfish political factions.

“Life may be sweeter for this”

Since: Nov 08

Fennario

#212279 Feb 13, 2014
Bongo wrote:

Again, as the story goes, this is a fallen temporary state. Christians are in the world but not of the world......Do not love the world nor the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. 16For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh and the lust of the eyes and the boastful pride of life, is not from the Father, but is from the world.… I know you loathe these words but how can you adequately dispute their veracity?
I do loathe those words. And they misrepresent life. I realize that I am more fortunate than many, but probably no more so than you. You seem comfortable and in control of your world, and can live more or less as you like.

But you seem to live under a cloud that robs you of some of the joy and contentment that I believe that you are entitled to. We are not fallen. I am grateful to be in and of this world, which is filled with beauty and goodness. The lust of the flesh properly channeled is a beautiful thing, and satisfying it is reason enough to live. I lust not just for sex, but for good ideas, for good friends, for good conversation, for laughter, for beauty, and for new experiences. Whoever told you otherwise lied to you and injected gratuitous guilt into your mind for wanting to taste pleasure.
Bongo

Medford, NY

#212280 Feb 13, 2014
Darwins Stepchild wrote:
<quoted text>
This is one of the WORST things apologetics has to say. Utterly immoral.
Not for a diety. As Ians would say, youre no more than a blade of grass or a shrimp.

“Life may be sweeter for this”

Since: Nov 08

Fennario

#212281 Feb 13, 2014
Bongo wrote:
When giving, and it should be to your local ministry not some tv evangelist its tax deductible and those clergy are fiduciaries. Whether or not they do the right thing is between them and God. You state rightly so, you got your reward. Christians store up their treasure in heaven. Its a spiritual thing, man.
My spiritual experiences occur right here on this planet in this life.

I would not give my money to a preacher or any charity bigger than a local animal shelter run by somebody that I know personally. Most of my charitable spending goes directly to beneficiaries. or to purchase things of little value to thieves, like canned food.

If you want to put a little of that pessimism of yours to good use, redirect it to your concept of charity. Charitable giving should be local and direct to be sure that it is used honestly and efficiently.

"Whether or not they do the right thing is" not the issue, because you generally cannot know. It's whether you do the right thing. In my experience, the good people are the ones reaching for their wallets, and the bad ones are among those with their hands out. It's very hard to tell how many good ones are included in that second group. When I look at the church records available to me, I find that it is likely to be very few.

Do you know how little of the money Mother Theresa collected on behalf of the dying, suffering poor actually went to them? I have reliable data from the government of the UK. You'd vomit if you knew. And we're talking about Mother Teresa here, who's name is associated with tender altruism the way Einstein's is with genius, Midas' is with wealth, Solomon's is with wisdom, and Hitler's is with evil.

“Life may be sweeter for this”

Since: Nov 08

Fennario

#212282 Feb 13, 2014
Bongo wrote:
Ians, how do you get normal type between the italics when responding?
I am going to substitute angular brackets for curved ones so that you can see them

<QUOTE who="trandiode">T o date not one has put forward an intelligent argument as to why a God cannot exist !</QUOTE>

That's not the majority position. We argue that god claims are unsupported, that the god hypothesis appears unnecessary, that gods are very unlikely and probably don't exist, and that if they do, they haven't contacted us, and have required nothing of us, including faith or worship. That's very different from your claim on our behalf.

<QUOTE who="trandiode"> Sorry to all the Atheists that have posted on this thread you have not been very convincing !</QUOTE>

We have nothing that you value to offer you.

"Water is two parts hydrogen and one part oxygen. What if someone says,“Well, that’s not how I choose to think about water; All we can do is appeal to scientific values. And if he doesn’t share those values, the conversation is over ." - Sam Harris

"If someone doesn’t value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove they should value it? If someone doesn’t value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" - Sam Harris

<QUOTE who="trandiode"> The belief in a God opens you up to far more than just a father figure !</QUOTE>

It opens you up to an irrational metaphysics, a sterile epistemology, and a monstrous ethical system that considers whatever a god commands to be good right because it has commanded it, however sadistic.

<QUOTE who="trandiode"> gives you a meaning and a purpose to your life</QUOTE>

Not if that meaning and purpose depend on the existence of god. If your purpose is defined by that, then you have no purpose except to praise a god, which means that you are of no value to others or yourself, and of very little to the god..

=======

If I convert all of those angular brackets to the standard squarte ones,it will be rendered like this:
trandiode wrote:
To date not one has put forward an intelligent argument as to why a God cannot exist !
That's not the majority position. We argue that god claims are unsupported, that the god hypothesis appears unnecessary, that gods are very unlikely and probably don't exist, and that if they do, they haven't contacted us, and have required nothing of us, including faith or worship. That's very different from your claim on our behalf.

trandiode wrote:
Sorry to all the Atheists that have posted on this thread you have not been very convincing !
We have nothing that you value to offer you.

"Water is two parts hydrogen and one part oxygen. What if someone says,“Well, that’s not how I choose to think about water; All we can do is appeal to scientific values. And if he doesn’t share those values, the conversation is over ." - Sam Harris

"If someone doesn’t value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove they should value it? If someone doesn’t value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" - Sam Harris
trandiode wrote:
The belief in a God opens you up to far more than just a father figure !
It opens you up to an irrational metaphysics, a sterile epistemology, and a monstrous ethical system that considers whatever a god commands to be good right because it has commanded it, however sadistic.
trandiode wrote:
gives you a meaning and a purpose to your life
Not if that meaning and purpose depend on the existence of god. If your purpose is defined by that, then you have no purpose except to praise a god, which means that you are of no value to others or yourself, and of very little to the god..
Bongo

Medford, NY

#212283 Feb 13, 2014
Darwins Stepchild wrote:
<quoted text>
A few hundred???
You are sadly misinformed.
And even one, abused in the name of religion, is one too many.
More awful apologetics from Bongo.
In the name of religion? Thou mewling prevaricator .

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