The Ultimate Evidence of God

“Reason's Greetings!”

Since: Feb 11

Pale Blue Dot

#23 Aug 3, 2014
First,
Ben_Masada wrote:
<quoted text>

I am not trying to BS you.
Then,
Ben_Masada wrote:
<quoted text>

atheist clergy
Total BS

“Citizen_Patriot_ Voter_Atheist!”

Since: May 09

Earth,TX

#24 Aug 3, 2014
Ben_Masada wrote:
<quoted text>
------
How about if you ask your atheist clergy to explain to you how to use Logic to understand how some thing cannot cause itself to exist. Then and only then we can go on.
Didn't the ancient priests claim a god or two did just that? After all, who else* could have created a god?

* I do know the answer to that one. It's the same ones who created all the gods.

“It's just a box of rain...”

Since: May 07

Knoxville, TN

#25 Aug 3, 2014
Ben, here's the basic problem with your approach: the title of your thread promises the ultimate evidence of God, but you then present a variation of the same old argument that God must exist unless atheists can prove he doesn't.

Physicists have determined that the universe came to its present state from a massively rapid expansion from a single, very small mass of something--I'm not sure if they've figured out just what. They don't claim to know how that state came to be. One possibility is that the energy/mass of the universe has always existed in one form or another and that the BB marks the beginning of one of many cycles, each many billions of years in duration to whatever extent our concept of time is applicable. But it is unreasonable to insist that skeptics fill that gap with speculations or assumptions about supernatural beings or events. It's so much better to admit that we don't know and to devise ways of finding out.

Our species has figured out an amazing amount of stuff in a very short time, and we may have millions of years to investigate what we don't know. There will be false starts, investigations that lead nowhere, even fraudulent "findings" just as there have been in the past, but ultimately, all that can be discovered within the lifespan of our species will come to light.

But insisting that those who disagree with your beliefs either explain their disbelief to your satisfaction or accept your views is amazingly clueless no matter how logical you believe your argument to be,
havent forgotten

Lamoni, IA

#26 Aug 4, 2014
Ben_Masada wrote:
The Ultimate Evidence of God
In 1922 the Theory of the big bang was the gift Science needed to break up with Aristotle that the universe was infinite. It was the gift of a Theist, George Lemaitre: The universe did have its beginning.
Now, the point is to demonstrate what or who caused the universe to begin because from the logical point of view, the universe could not have caused itself to exist. Simply because being the universe composed of matter and matter cannot cause itself to exist, the Primal Cause has ultimately become obvious.
Now, to all atheists, I have the following message: I am ready to give you the benefit of the doubt and probably even my word that I am ready to change my views about the uiverse if there is one that believes the universe caused itself to exist. If the answer stands the screening of Logic, my proposal is as good as gold that I'll be no longer a theist.
so God caused himself to exist> that is just as silly. besides your belief that that the big bang theory is absolutely true is rather funny. the deist and the knowledge-claiming scientists make the same mistake - overrating themselves and their views. you'd think they would know better than to claim to have godlike knowledge. agnostics know better, and agnostic atheists make a more plausible guess than agnostics who are also believers, but agnostic believers are more sensible than true believers who are sure they know.(and agnostic athiests are most sensible than true believers in the non-existence of anything that could be called God - such true believer types being the same sort of egomaniacs that trues believers in religion are).
havent forgotten

Lamoni, IA

#28 Aug 4, 2014
war on coal and human and other advanced life on the planet - providing one is generous in the use of the term advanced to apply to humans. sorry I hurried typing the next to last sentence and did not proofread. I apologize for that - not for the last sentence.
havent forgotten

Lamoni, IA

#29 Aug 4, 2014
Reason Personified wrote:
<quoted text>Didn't the ancient priests claim a god or two did just that? After all, who else* could have created a god?
* I do know the answer to that one. It's the same ones who created all the gods.
probably the first ones to think up a version of "send an offering" to go along with it. early con artists.
havent forgotten

Lamoni, IA

#30 Aug 4, 2014
Electrical Engineer wrote:
<quoted text>
It obviously came from somewhere but to answer that question with anything besides "From what though" is a massive tell of your intellect. You can't just assume a god. Unless you are not ok without an answer then by all means but don't sit there and tell me it HAS to be a god. We DO NOT KNOW what happened before the big bang. All we know is it happened. Hell, we may never know but I am ok with not knowing.
I am not only OK with not knowing, I think not knowing is a fine and lovely thing. I also do not know that the big bang theory is correct.
What I know from my own experience is this. Pain hurts. I don't like pain. I see other people and animals that seem to have pain and I think it is a terrible thing. Thus there cannot be an allgood and allpowerful God. That one is ruled out. Even Jove and Juno are more plausible than an allgoodallpowerful god.
I also know that I can do things to avoid pain and avoid causing pain in some instances, and I feel strongly that if I can I should. I brake for little animals, and drive slowly in places where I knows squirrels cross the road and rabbits nibble grass by the roadside. Being watchful and trying not to kill or injure anything is important - anything innocent that is. Someone truly guilty who would cause others pain in the future is another matter. It would have been good to have killed Hitler or Stalin when they were very young, even, if one had known what they had it in them to do.
Ethics matter more than theology. Theology that leads to a kinder ethic is tolerable. Theology that leads to a more hateful and hurtful ethic is not tolerable. Unfortunately too many religions and religious persons have both tendencies - even in the texts of the socalled holy books. On balance I think they do more harm than good, because they are used by extremists as absolutes to give themselves carte blanche to do all sorts of evil things.

Since: Nov 09

Location hidden

#31 Aug 9, 2014
Reason Personified wrote:
<quoted text>Didn't the ancient priests claim a god or two did just that? After all, who else* could have created a god?
* I do know the answer to that one. It's the same ones who created all the gods.
--------
Not the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. The god who created all gods must have been Zeus, the Greek god from the Olympian Pantheon of Greek Mythology. Then to be created some thing must be composed of matter. Since it cannot cause itself to exist, It is only obvious that the universe was caused to exist by the Primal Cause. Can you prove the opposite to me? I am talking Logically and not from the religious point of view.

Since: Nov 09

Location hidden

#32 Aug 9, 2014
NightSerf wrote:
Ben, here's the basic problem with your approach: the title of your thread promises the ultimate evidence of God, but you then present a variation of the same old argument that God must exist unless atheists can prove he doesn't.
Physicists have determined that the universe came to its present state from a massively rapid expansion from a single, very small mass of something--I'm not sure if they've figured out just what. They don't claim to know how that state came to be. One possibility is that the energy/mass of the universe has always existed in one form or another and that the BB marks the beginning of one of many cycles, each many billions of years in duration to whatever extent our concept of time is applicable. But it is unreasonable to insist that skeptics fill that gap with speculations or assumptions about supernatural beings or events. It's so much better to admit that we don't know and to devise ways of finding out.
Our species has figured out an amazing amount of stuff in a very short time, and we may have millions of years to investigate what we don't know. There will be false starts, investigations that lead nowhere, even fraudulent "findings" just as there have been in the past, but ultimately, all that can be discovered within the lifespan of our species will come to light.
But insisting that those who disagree with your beliefs either explain their disbelief to your satisfaction or accept your views is amazingly clueless no matter how logical you believe your argument to be,
-------

What caused that small mass of some thing you don't know to exist? According to Logic, no mass of any thing can cause itself to exist. Since the universe is composed of mass/matter, according to the concept of causality it was caused to exist by some thing else that preceded it. What could that thing have been? If you don't know, the only way to avoid sounding like a fool is to admit the concept of probability for the existence of the Primal Cause.

Being the universe composed of mass/matter/energy it could not have always existed according to the concept of causality. We are not talking about magic but a serious issue. I am not requiring that every one must accept my views of Logic. The point is that if you don't have a sensible option to replace mine, you ought to apply the concept of probability to every thing else including the Primal Cause to exist.

Since: Nov 09

Location hidden

#33 Aug 9, 2014
havent forgotten wrote:
<quoted text> so God caused himself to exist> that is just as silly. besides your belief that that the big bang theory is absolutely true is rather funny. the deist and the knowledge-claiming scientists make the same mistake - overrating themselves and their views. you'd think they would know better than to claim to have godlike knowledge. agnostics know better, and agnostic atheists make a more plausible guess than agnostics who are also believers, but agnostic believers are more sensible than true believers who are sure they know.(and agnostic athiests are most sensible than true believers in the non-existence of anything that could be called God - such true believer types being the same sort of egomaniacs that trues believers in religion are).
------

The only silly here is your question because I have already explained more than several times that some thing cannot cause itself to exist. For the Primal Cause to have caused itself to exist it had to exist. Since it already existed, why would it need to cause itself to exist? It makes no sense.

I have never said here that the theory of the big bang is absolutely true. That's your theory, not mine. I don't even believe in a literal big bang. The problem with atheists is that they have such a paranoia about gods that becomes impossible to have a conversation with them. They rather seem to be intoxicated with gods.

I don't use religion to prove the Primal Cause but Logic and, so far, I haven't found a single atheist to refute my views. Simply denial with a lot of verbal juggling does not mean any thing at all.
religionisillnes s

East Barnet, UK

#34 Aug 9, 2014
Ben_Masada wrote:
<quoted text>
------
The only silly here is your question because I have already explained more than several times that some thing cannot cause itself to exist. For the Primal Cause to have caused itself to exist it had to exist. Since it already existed, why would it need to cause itself to exist? It makes no sense.
I have never said here that the theory of the big bang is absolutely true. That's your theory, not mine. I don't even believe in a literal big bang. The problem with atheists is that they have such a paranoia about gods that becomes impossible to have a conversation with them. They rather seem to be intoxicated with gods.
I don't use religion to prove the Primal Cause but Logic and, so far, I haven't found a single atheist to refute my views. Simply denial with a lot of verbal juggling does not mean any thing at all.
Religious mouths always slapped by the facts. Never been anything such as god - all humans are liars.
CunningLinguist

Deltona, FL

#35 Aug 9, 2014
The thread title itself is ridiculous.

"God is an ever receding pocket of scientific ignorance."
~ Neil DeGrasse Tyson
Siro

Wiley Park, Australia

#36 Aug 10, 2014
Reason Personified wrote:
<quoted text>Didn't the ancient priests claim a god or two did just that? After all, who else* could have created a god?
* I do know the answer to that one. It's the same ones who created all the gods.
Probably the se who created a soup kitchen for you to run as a 10 year old.

You cant beat the Siro
Nobody can beat the Siro
Growupchildren

East Barnet, UK

#37 Aug 10, 2014
Siro wrote:
<quoted text>
Probably the se who created a soup kitchen for you to run as a 10 year old.
You cant beat the Siro
Nobody can beat the Siro
Siri proof of god as usual from the failed creationist.
Patrick

United States

#38 Aug 10, 2014
A moral issue -

Pope Francis expressed outrage on Sunday at violence aimed at religious minorities in Iraq – where fleeing children have died of thirst – and called on the world "to stop these crimes".

In a strongly worded message during his traditional Sunday blessing, Francis said the news from Iraq "leaves us in dismay and disbelief".

He cited "the thousands of people, including Christians, who have been brutally forced from their homes, children who have died from thirst during the escape and women who have been seized". He also spoke of the destruction of "the destruction of religious, historic and cultural treasures".

The pontiff urged the international community to find "an efficient political solution that can stop these crimes and re-establish the rule of law". He said his personal emissary, Cardinal Fernando Filoni, would depart on Monday for Iraq "in order to better assure those dear suffering populations of my closeness to them".

Filoni, the Vatican's ambassador in Baghdad during the Iraq war, will travel to the nation to show solidarity with Christians, who have been among those targeted by Islamic State (Isis) militants for elimination.

Filoni has acknowledged in an interview with Vatican Radio the difficulty of reaching the region where thousands of refugees are starving.

The pope also called attention to the renewed violence in Gaza, after a brief ceasefire, "that kills innocent victims and only worsens the conflict between Israelis and Palestinians".

Francis departs on Wednesday for South Korea. He asked the faithful to "please, accompany me with your prayer".
Patrick

United States

#39 Aug 10, 2014
Growupchildren wrote:
<quoted text>
Siri proof of god as usual from the failed creationist.
"Siri" is on your Apple phone :-)
Siro

Sydney, Australia

#40 Aug 10, 2014
Growupchildren wrote:
<quoted text>
Siri proof of god as usual from the failed creationist.
So you changed your name or just adopted another sock -Skeptic-?
Maybe you should try to impersonate me.....that would make you a Siri idiot.
(and here comes the whining.......oh teh racism oh teh h8!)

Since: Nov 09

Location hidden

#41 Aug 10, 2014
religionisillness wrote:
<quoted text>
Religious mouths always slapped by the facts. Never been anything such as god - all humans are liars.
-----

In that case, since the universe is composed of matter and matter cannot cause itself to exist, what then caused the universe to exist? You don't know. Since you have found out that you cannot provide us with a logical answer, you have no other way but to eat yourself up with frustration.

“It's just a box of rain...”

Since: May 07

Knoxville, TN

#42 Aug 10, 2014
Ben_Masada wrote:
<quoted text>
-----
In that case, since the universe is composed of matter and matter cannot cause itself to exist, what then caused the universe to exist? You don't know. Since you have found out that you cannot provide us with a logical answer, you have no other way but to eat yourself up with frustration.
This is still not evidence for God, much less ultimate evidence. There are many gaps in our species' scientific understanding of the universe, some of which may never be satisfactorily explained. The best that can be said about them is that they are not evidence against the possibility that some sort of deity exists. That those gapes leave the door open to a wide range of speculations does not mean that any of them are true.

Since: Nov 09

Location hidden

#43 Aug 17, 2014
NightSerf wrote:
<quoted text>
This is still not evidence for God, much less ultimate evidence. There are many gaps in our species' scientific understanding of the universe, some of which may never be satisfactorily explained. The best that can be said about them is that they are not evidence against the possibility that some sort of deity exists. That those gapes leave the door open to a wide range of speculations does not mean that any of them are true.
------

If you think this is no evidence for the Primal Cause, tell us yourself what caused the universe to exist if it is composed of matter and matter cannot cause itself to exist. If you don't know, why discard the concept of Causality? Why not give the Primal Cause the benefit of the doubt according to the concept of Probability?

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