Richard Dawkins - God is evil, pedophilesa not so bad

Sep 14, 2013 Read more: Examiner.com 3,049

"The God of the Qur'an is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully.

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“I started out with nothing”

Since: Nov 10

and still got most of it left

#2024 Jan 20, 2014
Thinking wrote:
Queeg's my favourite. Holly gets deleted by a total bad arse computer. Or something like that.
<quoted text>
I like them all, I don't think there is one of the early ones that I don't find absolutely hilarious

Since: Oct 13

Location hidden

#2025 Jan 20, 2014
Atheist Silurist wrote:
<quoted text>
The trouble with islam,and most other religions,is that you can put any bullshit interpretation on your preferred "holy"book you like. Suicide bombers find reason to kill themselves and others by interpreting their retarded "holy"book to suit their psychopathic murderous ways.
The koran adds nothing to scientific understanding. Like the christian young age creationists,the muslim creationists degrade scientific understanding by pushing their stupid superstitious bollocks as science.
you certainly can blame those who misuse the Quranic verses, but thats not islam's nor Quran's fault, there are people who would misuse anything to get what they want.

I never mentioned anything about Quran adding value to our present scientific understanding, but there are numerous verses in Quran explain scientific facts which were impossible to be known 1400 years ago.
Thinking

Yeovil, UK

#2026 Jan 20, 2014
A broken clock may be correct twice a day.
hazem selawi wrote:
<quoted text>
you certainly can blame those who misuse the Quranic verses, but thats not islam's nor Quran's fault, there are people who would misuse anything to get what they want.
I never mentioned anything about Quran adding value to our present scientific understanding, but there are numerous verses in Quran explain scientific facts which were impossible to be known 1400 years ago.

Since: Oct 13

Location hidden

#2027 Jan 20, 2014
ChristineM wrote:
<quoted text>
Funny how you cherry pick your definition, any one with nothing to hide would not need to stoop to such a low method of demonstrating their point.
http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/...
please note “physical and natural world through observation and experiment”
Also note some of what you chose to omit from the Merriam webster definition
* knowledge about or study of the natural world based on facts learned through experiments and observation
* a particular area of scientific study (such as biology, physics, or chemistry): a particular branch of science
* a subject that is formally studied in a college, university, etc.
So it seem that you are saying the quran is a particular branch of science that can be formally interpreted by experiment and observation?
Sorry bud, interpreting is not a scientific subject.
my point is; there is an obvious and a specific method that should be followed to extract rules or even to interpret Quran and Hadiths.
you are more than welcome to interpret Quranic verses but if you didn't follow Mohammed's method you certainly would get it wrong, Sunnah explains Quran and Quran explains Sunnah as well, some verses in Quran explains and completes other verses.

ChristineM wrote:
<quoted text>
Oh sorry again, how remiss of me, are you saying that clerics, scholars, preachers like Abu Hamsa, Omar Bakri Mohammed, Anjem Choudar or from your neck of the woods Abu Qatada interpret the quran in the same way as you do?
If this is so then I have nothing further to say to you and I believe that most other decent and civilized people on Topix would say the same.
Honey I have every right to throw accusations at the quran because it makes it so easy. Just because you are unwilling to see the fact is no ones problem but your own. Funnymentlism in any religion always breeds that ignorance of reality attitude.
you should always look for what is agreed on by the majority of scholars, an opinion of one scholar isn't enough to be followed, not anyone just can come up and say his opinion without bringing evidences and proofs from Both Quran and authentic Hadiths.

lets say for instance you were a Muslim scholar and you studied a specific issue and made a fatwa regarding killing all the unbelievers, then you should back up your fatwa with proofs from Quran and Sunnah , you'll probably back up your fatwa with the verse you keep mentioning that says "kill the unbelievers", in that case you probably will be ignored and categorized by the majority of scholars as a "khariji" or one of the "khawarej". Al Khawarej are those who break the most important Islamic rules and are no longer muslims.
ChristineM wrote:
<quoted text>
Nope, I have made it clear that the way I read quranic verses is not the way you want me to interpret quranic verses. You have made it clear that you interpret the quran not in the way it was written.
its not a personal thing , so its never what I want or doesnt want, Islam works in a specific system, but you always choose to do it your way.
ChristineM wrote:
<quoted text>
I take the word strike to mean strike, what do you take it to mean “molly coddle”?
I read the multiple versions and instances of “kill unbelievers”,“kill infidels” etc as threat. Tell Ahh I get it, you lie that it means love those infidels blessed with independent thought – right? Honey the words are written, you cannot argue with fact
Alright, I think you and I totally agree that Mohammed followed what the Quran states perfectly, then Why didnt he order us in his hadiths to hit women ??! or why didn't he hit any of his wives ? and Why did he say numerous hadiths that encourage muslims to be good to women ?? and why did he give women rights in a time when women were buried alive ??
and why did he die putting his head on Aisha's lap ?? and why did he treat his daughters in the best possible way ??!!

Since: Oct 13

Location hidden

#2028 Jan 20, 2014
Atheist Silurist wrote:
<quoted text>
Why is it that 13 muslim counties have the death penalty for being an Atheist? Isn't that reason enough for the non-believer to detest an ideology that would have them stoned to death?
Islam is not the savior of humanity it is its nemesis. Even if islam dominated the world,there would still be tens of thousands of muslims killing each other because they don't all follow the same kind of islam.Sectarianism drive the conflict between muslim creeds today,it will do so tomorrow and for the foreseeable future.
first of all there isn't a 13 muslim counties have the death penalty for being an atheist, secondly stoning to death isn't the penalty for Apostates and/or atheists, thirdly there isn't such a thing as generalization in Islam and each case should be dealt with differently depending on the circumstances of each case, fourthly in Islam you cannot apply such punishments until all the other Islamic rules are applied in the whole society; because you cannot cut a thief's hand if you didn't give him the chance to have a job, or you cannot apply the punishment of gentle lashing in public for committing fornication without 4 witnesses whom witnessed the whole process or if you didnt give the chance for the young to get married.

Its all connected you cannot take parts of Islam and leave another, What do you think of the economical system of Islam ?

Thinking

Yeovil, UK

#2029 Jan 20, 2014
And why did he screw her when she was nine and thigh her when she was six?
hazem selawi wrote:
<quoted text>
my point is; there is an obvious and a specific method that should be followed to extract rules or even to interpret Quran and Hadiths.
you are more than welcome to interpret Quranic verses but if you didn't follow Mohammed's method you certainly would get it wrong, Sunnah explains Quran and Quran explains Sunnah as well, some verses in Quran explains and completes other verses.
<quoted text>
you should always look for what is agreed on by the majority of scholars, an opinion of one scholar isn't enough to be followed, not anyone just can come up and say his opinion without bringing evidences and proofs from Both Quran and authentic Hadiths.
lets say for instance you were a Muslim scholar and you studied a specific issue and made a fatwa regarding killing all the unbelievers, then you should back up your fatwa with proofs from Quran and Sunnah , you'll probably back up your fatwa with the verse you keep mentioning that says "kill the unbelievers", in that case you probably will be ignored and categorized by the majority of scholars as a "khariji" or one of the "khawarej". Al Khawarej are those who break the most important Islamic rules and are no longer muslims.
<quoted text>
its not a personal thing , so its never what I want or doesnt want, Islam works in a specific system, but you always choose to do it your way.
<quoted text>
Alright, I think you and I totally agree that Mohammed followed what the Quran states perfectly, then Why didnt he order us in his hadiths to hit women ??! or why didn't he hit any of his wives ? and Why did he say numerous hadiths that encourage muslims to be good to women ?? and why did he give women rights in a time when women were buried alive ??
and why did he die putting his head on Aisha's lap ?? and why did he treat his daughters in the best possible way ??!!

Since: Oct 13

Location hidden

#2030 Jan 20, 2014
Mahmood wrote:
<quoted text>
D heard it from C who heard it from B who heard it from A that Aisha told Prophet Mohammad that your Allah hurries in pleasing you.
Even the most "authentic" books are not free from narratives that have been wrongly attributed to the Holy Prophet. Bukhari, Muslim, Ibn Maja all lived who were collectors of hadiths lived and died over two centuries after Mohammad, so how can one trust their research even when their intentions were noble?
All ahadith have been written through chains of narrators. These chains comprise of several links of reporters, in many instances, more than 10. When our scholars sit down to check on a reported hadith, their research begins and ends at one point. That is whether the narrators are reliable or not. People named in a particular hadith, were they real or fictitious, when were they born, why were they born, where did a particular storyteller live, when did he die, what was his temperament, how good was his memory, was his beard long enough, was he the son of a bondwoman, or his mother was divorced. One was caught listening to music. Another one was seen drinking date-wine. He was seen drinking water with his left hand, and another was conducting ablution with the right hand, etc.
There are thousands of narrators of hadiths, and the delimma is that the same narrator who is perfectly reliable in the eyes of two scholars is totally unreliable and cure-worthy according to ten others. Muslim scholars, for centuries, have been going through this mental punishment. They might well have invented 500,000 gods.
Actually I dont know much about science of Hadith, its complex and needs lots of accuracy and believe it or not Hadiths are still opened to become Authentic or go down to weak or Hasan ..etc

you do have a point, but what if D heard it from C who heard it from B who heard it from A that Mohammed said '.....something " and the exact same saying was repeated by another hundred different chain of narrators ?? the chain of narrators is D, C,B,A.

like what is Called the Last sermon (khutbat al wadaa) it was said by Mohammed in front of thousands of Muslims, and if we go back to the original narrators or (A) we'll notice that each one of them stated that Mohammed (PBUH) said the exact words.

In simpler words, during investigation, it is checked whether the narrator is personally with the qualities of trustworthiness and whether he is accurate in his narration or not (such qualities involve the morals and ethics of the narrator, if it was known that the narrator only used to eat food in public that may take the Hadith down to a different grade) Of course, this involves huge amount of work and has resulted in the biography of a hundred thousand of people, scholars like Ahmad Bin Hanbal or Imam Muslim and Bukhari didnt write down Hadiths, hadiths were already there, and their Job was to make a very hard investigation to make Sure which Hadith is authentic and which is Hasan or weak or even fake and manipulated.

I think Hadiths is what distinguishes Islam from other Religions, the Bible for instance contains both the sayings of Jesus (or Issa in Arabic) and the words of god, so it got mixed .
the other day I read an article for a muslim scholar who asks the Christians to perform an investigation to the Bible so it can be categorized into Authentic, Hasan and/ or weak or manipulated and fabricated, the christians themselves admitt that some part of the bible is fabricated and that's why there are different versions and different stories or details, not to mention that the original scriptures were translated multiple times.

Since: Oct 13

Location hidden

#2031 Jan 20, 2014
Thinking wrote:
And why did he screw her when she was nine and thigh her when she was six?
<quoted text>
do you have an evidence that he thigh-ed her when she was six ??!
Thinking

Yeovil, UK

#2032 Jan 20, 2014
You know many muslims believe this is the case.
You also know the same muslims don't see this as an issue.
That's my concern.
hazem selawi wrote:
<quoted text>
do you have an evidence that he thigh-ed her when she was six ??!

“I started out with nothing”

Since: Nov 10

and still got most of it left

#2033 Jan 21, 2014
hazem selawi wrote:
<quoted text>
my point is; …
Unfortunately there are many muslims who do not follow your obvious and specific method because it is your method, personal to you, it is not their method. Oh I know you will object to this and say “there can be only one method”, the only problem with that is that you fail to take account of one basic fact, humanity, i.e. everyone is different.

Say what? Honey you are taught by one or few scholars you are not taught by a consensus of scholars. Again you are trying to remove the humanity, the personality from people because you want everyone to be as you are. Life is not like that.

So you are saying that the terrorists of 9/11 and 7/7 had been taught by the consensus of scholars too, thanks for telling me that. I will be extremely vigilant next time I visit a Muslim country, nope fook it, I just won’t bother visiting… I don’t want to be among those educated in terrorism.

Why do you want to remove a persons faith just because they don’t think as you do? I hear the same stupidity from christians who want to steal faith because they do not want to be associated with the atrocities of some christians- example, Hitler, example Stalin, both good christians yet so many christians (particularly American christians) want to deny their faith. It is not up to you to decide who is and who is not Muslim simply because they do not interpret the quran way as you do.

Yes it is a personal thing that depends on personal interpretation. Just because you (personally) interpret the quran in the way you do does not mean that Mustafa Bath from down the road interprets in the same way.

Ahh yes the hadith and Muhammad Thank you…

Bukhari (72:715)

Muslim (4:2127)-- BTW I can advise that a woman being struck in the chest is probably on a par with you being struck in the balls but the pain lasts MUCH longer.

Muslim (9:3506)

Abu Dawud (2126)

Ibn Ishaq/Hisham 969

In Kash-shaf (the revealer) of al-Zamkhshari (Vol. 1, p. 525)-[Muhammad said] "Hang up your scourge where your wife can see it"

As to why he put his head on Aisha’s lap, simple, because like so many men, when the chips are down, when the dark clouds are gathering, when the bucket is drawing near enough to kick they bottle out and do not seek their gods but for preference they chose the comfort of a woman

Well, if he treated his daughters half as well (LOL) as he treated his wives then I would not call that the best possible way, I would call it child abuse however his only documented child abuse was with Aisha but we can see the sort of man he was. You base your life on the actions and words of a paedophile. You are welcome to that notoriety, but for fooks sake keep it to yourself, most people are now somewhat more civilised than that and treat such abuse as it deserves.

“I started out with nothing”

Since: Nov 10

and still got most of it left

#2034 Jan 21, 2014
Thinking wrote:
And why did he screw her when she was nine and thigh her when she was six?
<quoted text>
Because he was what is seen in today society as a perverted paedo?

Perhaps he was a peado in the name of his god, did Allah tell him to screw the children or was he was just twisted sicko?

Whatever the reason there are devout Muslims who base their entire life the on actions of a paedophile

Mind you Islam is not alone, the whole christian faith bases their belief on a terrorist
Thinking

Yeovil, UK

#2035 Jan 21, 2014
And King Arthur wiped his d!ck on the curtains. Probably. Almost anyone from over one thousand years ago will be far removed from the minimum required standards of today.
ChristineM wrote:
<quoted text>
Because he was what is seen in today society as a perverted paedo?
Perhaps he was a peado in the name of his god, did Allah tell him to screw the children or was he was just twisted sicko?
Whatever the reason there are devout Muslims who base their entire life the on actions of a paedophile
Mind you Islam is not alone, the whole christian faith bases their belief on a terrorist

“I started out with nothing”

Since: Nov 10

and still got most of it left

#2036 Jan 21, 2014
Thinking wrote:
And King Arthur wiped his d!ck on the curtains. Probably. Almost anyone from over one thousand years ago will be far removed from the minimum required standards of today.
<quoted text>
Oh no, not King Arthur…I am shocked and disgusted, the books tell us he was such a good guy…
Thinking

Yeovil, UK

#2037 Jan 21, 2014
Which is why we must eat meat with a dagger and we are not allowed to use forks. We must live this way forever and ever.
ChristineM wrote:
<quoted text>
Oh no, not King Arthur…I am shocked and disgusted, the books tell us he was such a good guy…

“I started out with nothing”

Since: Nov 10

and still got most of it left

#2038 Jan 21, 2014
Thinking wrote:
Which is why we must eat meat with a dagger and we are not allowed to use forks. We must live this way forever and ever.
<quoted text>
There are lots of other nasties over the centuries, I bet you already know where the toilets were in that palace of elegance and etiquette the hall of mirrors at Versailles.
Thinking

Yeovil, UK

#2039 Jan 21, 2014
I saw some chairs with holes in them. Right next to the food. Romans put their toilet in the kitchen. Keeping yourself clean as a woman must have been really awful back then.
ChristineM wrote:
<quoted text>
There are lots of other nasties over the centuries, I bet you already know where the toilets were in that palace of elegance and etiquette the hall of mirrors at Versailles.

“I started out with nothing”

Since: Nov 10

and still got most of it left

#2040 Jan 21, 2014
Thinking wrote:
I saw some chairs with holes in them. Right next to the food. Romans put their toilet in the kitchen. Keeping yourself clean as a woman must have been really awful back then.
<quoted text>
Who needed chairs when any where to lean against a wall would do. It must have stank.

I don’t think feminine hygiene was a priority when crocodile dung was used as contraceptive

Until recently (last couple of centuries) the military also put their toilets next to food. The British army was the first to realise this was a problem and cut the incidence of dysentery among the troops overnight

Since: Oct 13

Location hidden

#2041 Jan 21, 2014
Thinking wrote:
You know many muslims believe this is the case.
You also know the same muslims don't see this as an issue.
That's my concern.
<quoted text>
Actually only some Shiate scholars said that thighing is okay, and not only to your wife, you can do it to any baby, those scholars are considered by us the majority of muslims as infidels and all Sunni scholars consider Shiate scholars as infidels and apostates.

I challenge you to get me one fatwa from A Sunni scholar who says that thighing is not prohibited and a very big sin and might certainly get you to hell.
even all the shiat normal people know that thinghing is a very big sin, they are good people not perverts.

Since: Oct 13

Location hidden

#2042 Jan 21, 2014
ChristineM wrote:
<quoted text>
Unfortunately there are many muslims who do not follow your obvious and specific method because it is your method, personal to you, it is not their method. Oh I know you will object to this and say “there can be only one method”, the only problem with that is that you fail t.
I swear to god its not my method its agreed on by all muslims, but for us being raised as muslims we know how the Quran is interpreted and we studied that in our schools, you are absolutely right some Muslims do what is prohibited or even most of Muslims do what is prohibited but deep down they know what is wrong and whats not, and after all everyone is responsible for his actions, Islam only shows us the way of doing everything and if we didnt do it that way and didnt follow the doe's and dont's we'll be questioned for it by Allah, its not a game.

99:7-8 "So whoever does an atom's weight of good will see it, And whoever does an atom's weight of evil will see it."
ChristineM wrote:
<quoted text>
Say what? Honey you are taught by one or few scholars you are not taught by a consensus of scholars. Again you are trying to remove the humanity, the personality from people because you want everyone to be as you are. Life is not like that.
So you are saying that the terrorists of 9/11 and 7/7 had been taught by the consensus of scholars too, thanks for telling me that. I will be extremely vigilant next time I visit .
Again Islam doesn't obligate you to do anything, it shows you how Allah wants you to do it, and if you are taught by one scholar, this one scholar should teach what the majority of scholars mean and what the opinion of all scholars mean, Mohammed (PBUH) is our role model, the majority of Sunni scholars agree on more than 95% of Islamic rules and there is a small room for flexibility because Islamic rules are applied based on the circumstances,
lets say for instance you are a Muslim and you got your period and you were wondering if you are allowed to have sex with your husband or not ??

then you can go back to old scholars opinions who in their turn depend on Quranic verses. Authentic Hadiths and the act of Mohammed companions ...etc

you'll find out that All scholars say that its completely prohibited to have an inner course during periods and of course they back up their opinions (fatwas) with strong evidences, it doesn't stop there because that we'll lead us to ask if kisses or anything except inner course is allowed or not, you'll again find out that the majority of scholars say its not prohibited to do anything except inner course.

The Islamic scientists and scholars covered every aspect of life depending on proofs and evidences from Quran and Sunnah.

Why do you want to remove a persons faith just because they don’t think as you do? I hear the same stupidity from christians who want to steal faith because they do not want to be associated with the atrocities of some christians- example, Hitler, example Stalin, both good christians yet so many christians (particularly American christians) want to deny their faith. It is not up to you to decide who is and who is not Muslim simply because they do not interpret the Quran way as you do.
ChristineM wrote:
<quoted text>
Yes it is a personal thing that depends on personal interpretation. Just because you (personally) interpret the quran in the way you do does not mean that Mustafa Bath from down the road interprets in the same way.
I don't care how anybody interprets the Quran, the most important thing is what he can prove
or not, so Mustafa Cannot for example claim that eating pork is not prohibited in islam because it can be easily be disproved by verses and numerous hadiths.
he can say I think its not prohibited but then he'll be representing himself not Islam, and the same thing goes for you you cannot say Islam orders to kill all the unbelievers because this can be disproved by a 5 years old boy as well.

Since: Oct 13

Location hidden

#2043 Jan 21, 2014
ChristineM wrote:
<quoted text>
Why do you want to remove a persons faith just because they don’t think as you do? I hear the same stupidity from christians who want to steal faith because they do not want to be associated with the atrocities of some christians- example, Hitler, example Stalin, both good christians yet so many christians (particularly American christians) want to deny their faith. It is not up to you to decide who is and who is not Muslim simply because they do not interpret the Quran way as you do.
I cannot remove anyone's faith, because faith is in the heart but there is what is called actions that appear to the public;and there are so many actions that can take you out of Islam, for instance if I saw a Muslim drinking wine I cannot say he is no longer a Muslim but I can say what he doing is a big sin and I am innocent of what he is doing.

But what if that particular Muslim said clearly that he doesn't believe that Allah sent Jesus or there isn't such a thing as the Bible or Torah or took what is known to be prohibited as allowed ..etc; such actions or beliefs take the one's out of Islam, there are some pillars of faith and pillars of Islam and if you lost only one of them you'll no longer be considered as a Muslim.
ChristineM wrote:
<quoted text>
Bukhari (72:715)
Muslim (4:2127)-- BTW I can advise that a woman being struck in the chest is probably on a par with you being struck in the balls but the pain lasts MUCH longer.
Muslim (9:3506)
Abu Dawud (2126)
Ibn Ishaq/Hisham 969
In Kash-shaf (the revealer) of al-Zamkhshari (Vol. 1, p. 525)-[Muhammad said] "Hang up your scourge where your wife can see"
we need to explain each Hadith aside, Even hadiths should be taken out of context

here is the full hadith without the narrating chaing
Muslim (4:2127)
"I hear Aisha talking and she said 'shall i inform you of something about me and the prophet?' we said yes' she said When it was my turn for the messenger of Allah alayi salaam to spend the night with me, he put on his upper garment and took of his shoes and put them by his bed, he spread the corner of his lower garment on his bed and then laid down untill he thought that i had gone to slee. He took his upper garment slowly and put on his shoes slowly, and then he opened the door, went out, and closed the door slowly. I covered my head, put on my veil and tightened my lower garment, and then i follow his steps until he reached al Baqee(a graveyard close to the masjid) He stood there for a very long time, and then lifted his hands three times, and then he started to head back, So i started to head back. He hurried up, so i hurried up, He ran, so i ran. He came to the house as i came to the house, however i beat him there, so i entered and as i lay down in bed he entered the house and said'

"Oh Aisha why are you out of breath?"I said it is nothing,
He said"Tell me or the most kind the ever aware will tell me"
I said Messenger of Allah may my father and mother be ranson for you, and then i told him' He said, Was it your shadow that i saw in front of me?
I said "Yes". He struck me on the chest, which hurt me and said:
'Did you think that Allah and his messenger would wrong you?'
"I said Whatever people conceal Allah the mighty and majestic knows, He said

"Yes jibreel came to me when you saw me he called me and hid from you. I responded to his call, but i hid from you. He did not come in because you were not dressed. I thought that you had gone to sleep, and I ddid not want to wake you up because i was afraid that you would feel abandoned' He said" Your lord has comanded you to go to go to the inhabitants of al baqee and seek forgiveness ofr them.

'I said, How can i speak to them o messenger of Allah?"
He said,Say Peace be upon the inhabitants of this city from among the believers and the muslims, and may allah have mercy on those who have gone ahead of us and those who will come later, and we shall God willing join you"

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