Richard Dawkins - God is evil, pedophilesa not so bad

Sep 14, 2013 Full story: Examiner.com 3,031

"The God of the Qur'an is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully.

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Quadratus

Seattle, WA

#1348 Dec 7, 2013
hazem selawi wrote:
<quoted text>
yes even in the quran represents god as masculine but that doesnt make him a male, like the humans concept anyways if we agreed about that, I dont think that Jesus was like that, what do you think ?
Obviously not the physical characteristics, but His personality is male. He identifies Himself as the Father.
Its late and I have to speak tomorrow. Will continue tomirrow. Good night. Appreciate your concern for my daughter.

Since: Oct 13

Location hidden

#1349 Dec 7, 2013
Igor Trip wrote:
<quoted text>
The Quran is basically telling people to look at the wonders of the world and saying this is proof of God. Today science and philosophy disagree.
The Quranic verses contain numerous allegorical Questions,
52:33-38
-Or do they say, "He has made it up"? Rather, they do not believe.
-Then let them produce a statement like it, if they should be truthful.
-Or were they created by nothing, or were they the creators [of themselves]?
-Or did they create the heavens and the earth? Rather, they are not certain.
-Or have they the depositories [containing the provision] of your Lord? Or are they the controllers [of them]?
-Or have they a stairway [into the heaven] upon which they listen? Then let their listener produce a clear authority.

so what would your answer be for these allegorical Questions ..!!
Igor Trip wrote:
<quoted text>
Religions are all for science up to the point when it starts questioning their beliefs, then they turn against it.
Actually Islam encourage or even insist on getting education and seeking for knowledge.
Quran and the message of Islam was not proved to be wrong nor contradicts with proved scientific facts.
Igor Trip wrote:
<quoted text>
Or the laws of physics are purely natural. Inserting a God just creates another unsolved problem.
Purely natural or obviously indicates a perfect Order not chaos ..!!
Igor Trip wrote:
<quoted text>
The Chinese were the first into the air on man sized kites.
If Abbas Ibn Firna had succeeded others would have copied him which rather suggests he only succeeded in surviving a long fall.
It doesnt matter who jumped first, Abbas could make a change in his days after a careful study to a single verse in the Quran, the point is Quran encourage science and the attempts to improve life on earth.

Since: Oct 13

Location hidden

#1350 Dec 7, 2013
Quadratus wrote:
<quoted text>
Obviously not the physical characteristics, but His personality is male. He identifies Himself as the Father.
Its late and I have to speak tomorrow. Will continue tomirrow. Good night. Appreciate your concern for my daughter.
we'll continue our conversation tomorrow Inchalla,
regards to the family.
Mahmood

Mississauga, Canada

#1351 Dec 8, 2013
hazem selawi wrote:
<quoted text>
you have to put aside Allah's foreknowledge that anyone would be an evil person, and admit that its us who choose to do bad or good, So you cannot go and kill someone and simply say I killed because Allah knew that I would kill, its you who killed by your complete choice, its you who decided to do this and that and you never will be able to know what was written for you anyways, so you cannot take that as an excuse, everyone stands responsible for his own actions, not to mention that Duaa and prayers may change your Destiny.
<quoted text>
for the million time I don't discuss people actions , some people take advantage of Islam to justify their own actions, I only care about the authentic teachings of Quran and Mohammed thats it...!!!
<quoted text>
yes he is rasool Allah, he is also for me and for hundreds of millions of Muslims the best man ever walked on this earth, and yes there is an expansionist agenda for Islam, the purpose of this agenda is to spread justice but you are too blind to see the truth of it.
<quoted text>
thats exactly what people of Quraysh said.
36:78 "And he presents for Us an example and forgets his [own] creation. He says, "Who will give life to bones while they are disintegrated?"
Allah "Say, "He will give them life who produced them the first time; and He is, of all creation, Knowing."
36:81 "Is not He who created the heavens and the earth Able to create the likes of them? Yes,[it is so]; and He is the Knowing Creator. "
<quoted text>
actually no, Islam is the exact opposite, its all about free well, Islam only shows you the right path and the wrong path and the consequences of each path, after that it would up to you to choose.
8:21 "So remind,[O Muhammad]; you are only a reminder. "
8:22 "You are not over them a controller. "
Islam is a message to deliver the good news and the warnings.
<quoted text>
Yes of course the true message of Allah will be proclaimed over all religion, the victory will be for Islam whether you liked it or not, Mahmoud you have to bare in mind that the Quran affect different types of people, some people will never see the right path unless they read the torture,fear,regret, hell and fire verses , other people are strongly affected by rewards, paradise and heaven, there is a physiological wisdom behind all these verses.
if you counted the verses about hell and verses about heaven you'll find out that the verses are completely equal, Allah is clearly showing us that there are two ways in this life and its up to us to choose.
We cannot put aside allah's foreknowledge and claim that we have free will. If we have freewill, then Allah is not omniscient. Time and again in the Koran, Allah takes full responsiblity for guidance and misguidance.

28:56 - It is true thou wilt not be able to guide every one, whom thou lovest; but God guides those whom He will and He knows best those who receive guidance.

6:125 - Those whom God (in His plan) willeth to guide,- He openeth their breast to Islam; those whom He willeth to leave straying,- He maketh their breast close and constricted, as if they had to climb up to the skies: thus doth God (heap) the penalty on those who refuse to believe.

What is your understanding of these verses? Looking forward to your response.
Quadratus

Seattle, WA

#1352 Dec 8, 2013
hazem selawi wrote:
<quoted text>
we'll continue our conversation tomorrow Inchalla,
regards to the family.
Anyway,
While certainly man cannot ever become God, God could become Man. We both would agree that this would not be too hard for Him. God through His Spirit could incorporate Himself into whatever He wished actually, and still retain every infinite aspect of the Spirit essense He is.
If the essense of God is trinity, He could do the same to the eternal Son and once again nothing of His Spirit essense would be lost.
If you believe this did not happen because your prophet said it didnt that us one thing. Our conversation then is about prophets. But if you believe it didnt because its impossible, I dont see iit that way. I think that limits God.

Since: Oct 13

Location hidden

#1353 Dec 8, 2013
Quadratus wrote:
<quoted text>
Anyway,
While certainly man cannot ever become God, God could become Man. We both would agree that this would not be too hard for Him. God through His Spirit could incorporate Himself into whatever He wished actually, and still retain every infinite aspect of the Spirit essense He is.
If the essense of God is trinity, He could do the same to the eternal Son and once again nothing of His Spirit essense would be lost.
If you believe this did not happen because your prophet said it didnt that us one thing. Our conversation then is about prophets. But if you believe it didnt because its impossible, I dont see iit that way. I think that limits God.
so you are basically saying that Jesus is god because we shouldnt limit god, we have agreed that God knows everything, did Jesus know everything ?!

Since: Oct 13

Location hidden

#1354 Dec 8, 2013
Mahmood wrote:
<quoted text>
We cannot put aside allah's foreknowledge and claim that we have free will. If we have freewill, then Allah is not omniscient. Time and again in the Koran, Allah takes full responsiblity for guidance and misguidance.
28:56 - It is true thou wilt not be able to guide every one, whom thou lovest; but God guides those whom He will and He knows best those who receive guidance.
6:125 - Those whom God (in His plan) willeth to guide,- He openeth their breast to Islam; those whom He willeth to leave straying,- He maketh their breast close and constricted, as if they had to climb up to the skies: thus doth God (heap) the penalty on those who refuse to believe.
What is your understanding of these verses? Looking forward to your response.
Lets take you as an example, you decided to leave Islam, did anyone force you to leave it ?! or was it your choice ?
Quadratus

Seattle, WA

#1355 Dec 8, 2013
hazem selawi wrote:
<quoted text>
so you are basically saying that Jesus is god because we shouldnt limit god, we have agreed that God knows everything, did Jesus know everything ?!
I havent got to that point yet.
I am simply pointing out that God could take on manhood without losing His Godness. And that if the biblical concept of the trinity is correct, then God the Son could do the same.
Do you see a problem with the concept itself?
I understand that there is a passage where Jesus does not know something the Father knows - that is not an inurmountable problem according to Philippians 2:6-8

Since: Oct 13

Location hidden

#1356 Dec 8, 2013
Quadratus wrote:
<quoted text>
I havent got to that point yet.
I am simply pointing out that God could take on manhood without losing His Godness. And that if the biblical concept of the trinity is correct, then God the Son could do the same.
Do you see a problem with the concept itself?
I understand that there is a passage where Jesus does not know something the Father knows - that is not an inurmountable problem according to Philippians 2:6-8
So according to the trinity, God took on manhood without losing his godness, But at the same time we agree that Jesus didn't know everything as the Bible says , when Jesus was asked about “The Hour” that is The Day of Judgement, Jesus said “No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.”[Matthew 24:36]
Also , when Jesus went to get fruit from a fig tree, there was no fruit and he cursed the tree.[Matthew 21:18-22] Surely if he was God, he would have known that before he went to the tree!

Philippians 2:6-8 proves that there is nothing mutual between God and Jesus, as long as he is in a form of a slave.

anyways do you believe that Jesus was god or the son of god ?
Quadratus

Seattle, WA

#1357 Dec 8, 2013
hazem selawi wrote:
<quoted text>
So according to the trinity, God took on manhood without losing his godness, But at the same time we agree that Jesus didn't know everything as the Bible says , when Jesus was asked about “The Hour” that is The Day of Judgement, Jesus said “No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.”[Matthew 24:36]
Also , when Jesus went to get fruit from a fig tree,
there was no fruit and he cursed the tree.[Matthew 21:18-22] Surely if he was God, he would have known that before he went to the tree!
Philippians 2:6-8 proves that there is nothing
mutual between God and Jesus, as long as he is in a form of a slave.
anyways do you believe that Jesus was god or the son of god ?
Expected points and answerable. But first I would like to know if you agree with the concept I proposed.

Since: Oct 13

Location hidden

#1358 Dec 8, 2013
Quadratus wrote:
<quoted text>
Expected points and answerable. But first I would like to know if you agree with the concept I proposed.
your concept is that God could take on manhood without losing His Godness. And that if the biblical concept of the trinity is correct, then God the Son could do the same.
I totally agree that god can do anything, he is the almighty but Many people are called sons of God in the Bible. For example, Adam was called the son of God (Luke 3:38) and so was David (2 Samuel 7:14). Jesus himself, in the Bible said “Blessed are the peacemakers for they shall be called Sons of God.”(Matthew 5:9) In the Bible, lots of good people are called Sons of God, and from what Jesus said in The Bible, any good person is a ‘son of God.’

I don't get your concept, if god wanted to take down to manhood, then we are all the sons of god not only Jesus
Quadratus

Seattle, WA

#1359 Dec 8, 2013
hazem selawi wrote:
<quoted text>
your concept is that God could take on manhood without losing His Godness. And that if the biblical concept of the trinity is correct, then God the Son could do the same.
I totally agree that god can do anything, he is the almighty but Many people are called sons of God in the Bible. For example, Adam was called the son of God (Luke 3:38) and so was David (2 Samuel 7:14). Jesus himself, in the Bible said
“Blessed are the peacemakers for they shall be called Sons of God.”(Matthew 5:9) In the Bible, lots of good people are called Sons of God, and from what Jesus said in The Bible, any good person is a ‘son of God.’
I don't get your concept, if god wanted to take down to manhood, then we are all the sons of god not only Jesus
The Bible calls Jesus Christ the begotten Son. There is a difference between that and the Jewish phrase son of whatever. In Acts, Barnabus was called Son of Consolation. Meaning that he was known for being a very merciful person. It is I believe what Jesus was referring to in Matthew. Jesus however was called begotten, that means natural born, in His case, from God Himself.
In John 3, Jesus referrs to those who believe in Him as becoming born again into Gods family - literally born from above. In this case the Holy Spirit comes into the believer and literally makes them alive spiritually. In reference to this the Bible teaches that we are literally spiritually born into Gods family and as such are sons and daughters of God. But the Bible doesnt say that we are begotten sons like it says of Jesus.

“Evil Atheist :-)”

Since: Mar 07

Location hidden

#1360 Dec 8, 2013
hazem selawi wrote:
<quoted text>
Or [they are] like darknesses within an unfathomable sea which is covered by waves, upon which are waves, over which are clouds - darknesses, some of them upon others. When one puts out his hand [therein], he can hardly see it. And he to whom Allah has not granted light - for him there is no light.
in Arabic its obvious that the verse is describing the depth of the sea, " And he to whom Allah has not granted light - for him there is no light." and he to whom Allah has not granted light is describing the structure of some creatures whom live deep down in the water,
Yes I get that the deep dark sea is being used as an example of darkness but we're discussing the seas internal waves here and those waves are transparent. They don't stop light penetrating the deep (though they do refract it).
What the verse actually says is “an unfathomable sea which is covered by waves“. Those have to be surface waves.
It then states “upon which are waves”. So that's waves above surface waves not internal waves, just like in a storm.
hazem selawi wrote:
there are numerous types of creatures with actual lights in their physical structure, I sent you a youtube link that shows some of these creatures.
I'm well aware of such creatures (I love nature films) but they aren't mentioned in the verse and so are irrelevant here.

“Evil Atheist :-)”

Since: Mar 07

Location hidden

#1361 Dec 8, 2013
hazem selawi wrote:
<quoted text>
Alright, lets assume I told you that "christenm" told me That "thinking" told her that "abdullah" told him that "john" told him that "George" told him that "Albert" told him that "hassan" told him that he once was setting with Queen Elizabeth and queen Elizabeth told him "Dont wash your hands after eating"
now how can we know if this statement of queen Elizabeth is true or not ?
According to Hadith science the list of narrators is called Al Sanad, and the statement is Al matan.
Al Sanad contains me, christenm, thinking, abdullah, john, George, Albert, hassan.
Al Maten "Dont wash your hands after eating"
now what if we know that Queen Elizabeth died before the born of Hassan?!! this means that the statement of queen Elizabeth was obviously Fake.
what if we know that one of the narrators had a memory problem ?!! what if we know that one of the narrators was a knownto be a liar ?!! what if we know that one and only one of the narrators used to behave badly ? a very small mistake can instantly make a narrator unworthy of narrating a Hadith thus take the Hadith into a different type, an Authentic Hadith may go down to weak because of the behavior of one narrator.
what if we never received this statement about Queen Elizabeth in any other way beside this list of narrators ?!
what if the Statement ( Al Maten) contradicts directly with other authentic teachings ?!
science of Hadith isn't a game, its very accurate and complicated it mainly depends on details and specific criteria and standards, Authentic Hadiths were classified as authentic only after a complete correspondence with all these standards, some authentic Hadiths have hundreds of Isnad (different list of narrators) and all these different list of narrators literally match with the last statement of Mohammed (Al Matin), not to mention that all of this work was only in one language which is Arabic.
its not a coincidence we have numerous types of Hadith, authentic Hadiths are also classified into different types , good Hadiths were classified into different types as well, even the weak Hadiths were classified into numerous of types, thousands of hadiths were classified as false.
Science of hadith is a very wide scope, not any muslim can just come up and classify Hadiths as he want, there are numerous books that only show the basics of science of Hadith such ; "Mashariq Al Anwaar" of Al Saghani ,Al Masabeeh of Al Baghawi, "Jami Al Usool" of Ibn Kathir, "Scimces of Hadeeth" of Ibn Al Salah, "Al Taqrib and Taysir" of Al Nawawi , some scholars nowadays claim to be specialized in Hadith after reading some Hadith books...!!!
science of Hadith is way more complicated than you can imagine.
You have more faith in the accuracy of narrators than I have.

“Evil Atheist :-)”

Since: Mar 07

Location hidden

#1362 Dec 8, 2013
hazem selawi wrote:
<quoted text>
The Quranic verses contain numerous allegorical Questions,
52:33-38
-Or do they say, "He has made it up"? Rather, they do not believe.
-Then let them produce a statement like it, if they should be truthful.
-Or were they created by nothing, or were they the creators [of themselves]?
-Or did they create the heavens and the earth? Rather, they are not certain.
-Or have they the depositories [containing the provision] of your Lord? Or are they the controllers [of them]?
-Or have they a stairway [into the heaven] upon which they listen? Then let their listener produce a clear authority.
so what would your answer be for these allegorical Questions ..!!
If we don't know the answer to a question it's best to just admit it. The worst thing to do is just make something up to fill in the gaps in our knowledge.
Religion is the worst offender here though many scientists have been guilty of this as well.

We need some evidence before we can sure of the answers.
hazem selawi wrote:
Actually Islam encourage or even insist on getting education and seeking for knowledge.
Quran and the message of Islam was not proved to be wrong nor contradicts with proved scientific facts.
Religions only encourage science up to the point where science and religion disagree. They're not so enthusiastic after that.
And there are plenty of errors in the Quran.

67:5 And we have,(from of old), adorned the lowest heaven with Lamps, and We have made such (Lamps)(as) missiles to drive away the Evil Ones, and have prepared for them the Penalty of the Blazing Fire.

Stars are used as missiles?
hazem selawi wrote:
Purely natural or obviously indicates a perfect Order not chaos ..!!
Quantum physics which basically says the universe is made from bits of energy of a fixed size (the Plank constant) provides all the structure needed.
How much structure would be needed for a God to just exist?
hazem selawi wrote:
It doesnt matter who jumped first, Abbas could make a change in his days after a careful study to a single verse in the Quran, the point is Quran encourage science and the attempts to improve life on earth.
Everyone can see birds fly so we know it's possible with wings like a birds.
Nobody needs a book to encourage them to try and fly but what they do need is some science.
Mahmood

Mississauga, Canada

#1363 Dec 8, 2013
hazem selawi wrote:
<quoted text>
Lets take you as an example, you decided to leave Islam, did anyone force you to leave it ?! or was it your choice ?
Whether it my choice or Allahs, we will discuss later. First give me your interpretation of the verses I quoted.

“Alea iacta est!”

Since: Oct 06

Oh it's ON!

#1364 Dec 8, 2013
Mahmood wrote:
<quoted text>
Whether it my choice or Allahs, we will discuss later. First give me your interpretation of the verses I quoted.
He seems to be playing a game of cat and mouse with you. Just saying...maybe he's afraid?
Thinking

Windsor, UK

#1365 Dec 9, 2013
This latest religitard attempt to twist Dawkins' words goes back to what he wrote in the God Delusion way back in 2006. He received the following text in a letter from an American woman in her forties.

"Being fondled by the priest simply left the impression (from the mind of a 7 year old) as ‘yucky’ while the memory of my friend going to hell was one of cold, immeasurable fear. I never lost sleep because of the priest – but I spent many a night being terrified that the people I loved would go to Hell. It gave me nightmares."
NinaRocks wrote:
<quoted text>
If you actually read the article you would know that it was a school teacher, but that is also beside the point. The point was Dawkins belief that pedophiles are harmless and we make to much of a fuss over them. He called the modern 'hysteria' over them a 'modern witchhunt'.
“we live in a time of hysteria about paedophilia, a mob psychology that calls to mind the Salem witch-hunts of 1692…the boarding schools I attended employed teachers whose affections for small boys overstepped the bounds of propriety. That was indeed reprehensible. Nevertheless, if, fifty years on, they had been hounded by vigilantes or lawyers as no better than child murderers, I should have felt obliged to come to their defence, even as the victim of one of them (an embarrassing but otherwise harmless experience).”
Explain how this is right.

“I started out with nothing”

Since: Nov 10

and still got most of it left

#1366 Dec 9, 2013
NinaRocks wrote:
<quoted text>
I am struck by your persistant need to read things into what is said so as to justify an emotional response. Is it that you are incapable of logic?
You are not the only one touched by tragedy. My own sister in law had multiple miscarrages and when they finally had a son, he died at four months. This is tragic, but it is also life. We all lose. I did not say anything about equating rebirth with the death of a child. When was anything said about athiests being unfeeling nonhumans? I also don't allow myself to become angry enough over a meer discussion to reduce myself to name-calling and ridiculous euphemisms. You can't even say the word Christian(which is telling in itself, and speaks to your own fear, evasion and prudery), but must call them godbots or christards. How grown up you are.
Since you are incapable of the logic necessary to answer my earlier post, I will spell it out for you:
If there is no god, no power higher than you to hold you to account, why could you not, then, murder your neighbor? Why should pedophilia be wrong? There is no right but what you decide it is, is there?
This is a serious question, to which I would appreciate an unemotional, logical response.
Ignored on the grounds that you are morally illiterate.

“I started out with nothing”

Since: Nov 10

and still got most of it left

#1367 Dec 9, 2013
NinaRocks wrote:
<quoted text>
Why would you not take the British to task for that then? They are a Christian nation. How many have died in Northern Ireland? or is death by soldier more legitimate? It's no where near you, so it's not a problem, right?
How many men, women and children have died in the middle east by foriegn soldiers just because they were in the wrong place at the wrong time?
Any country or group can call themselves Christian and attempt to hide their actions behind the Bible, but that makes it no more true, and makes them no more Christian. Any group can hide behind the Koran too. It is not a black and white world. Deceit is everywhere.
Ignored on the grounds that you are morally illiterate.

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