Richard Dawkins - God is evil, pedophilesa not so bad

Sep 14, 2013 Full story: Examiner.com 3,029

"The God of the Qur'an is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully.

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Since: Oct 13

Location hidden

#1126 Dec 1, 2013
Mahmood wrote:
Dirty Islamic Politics:
As soon as Mohammad took his last breath, Islamic politics got dirty. Umar and Abu Bakr in one camp, the Ansars in the other, and then there was the prophets household. Each one of these groups were jostling for power. Islamic tradition states that when Ali Ibn Abi Taleb refused to swear allegiance to Abu Bakr, Umar came to his house threatening to cut his head off. Another tradition states that he broke open the door injuring Fatima (prophet's daughter) resulting in her miscarriage.
Saad Ibn Ubadah an ailing leader of the Ansars refused to give oath of allegiance to Abu Bakr and so did Ali ibn Abi Talib. Some years later, the prophets favourite wife Aisha & Ali fought one another in a bloody battle. Pre-Islamic mode of authority surfaced immediately after Mohammad’s death when some of his followers invoked an erstwhile tribal procedure for the selection of a chief. Convening of the tribal council and the selection of Abu Bakr was the re-emergence of pre-Islamic polity.
Shia theory of succession is even narrower and more restricted than that of the Sunni. The Shia also believe that only a person of Arab descent can claim leadership of the Muslim community. In their doctrine, the Arab cannot be any Arab but must prove to be a direct descendant of the Prophet’s family from his daughter Fatima. Is it any surprise the Supreme Leaders of Iran have all been men claiming to have Arab ancestry, not Persian?
Mahmoud what do you know about the closest and best companions of Mohammed ?!!! read their biographies from a trusted source , if you really believe what you wrote up there then you are a shiat not a Sunni, its whether you were lying to me when you said that you left Islam or you are a shiat in the first place ..!!
Be honest to me and stop practicing false Taqqiya, Taqqiya is hypocrisy , your imams tricked you, you will not get rewarded if you cursed Abu Bakr, Umar and Aisha.

I think you were trying to prove that Umar and Usman changed the Quran to convince us that there is ِA Surah Called Al Wilaya which proves that Ali was supposed to be the Kaliph and the Imam , we as Sunnis love Ali more than ourselves, don't waste your time thinking about what happened between Ali and Mouawya.

Besides do you actually believe that the closest companions of Mohammed would hurt Fatima ???...!!! or wouldn't follow Islam accurately, Those Companions and Caliphs succeeded to spread Islam's message more than you can imagine, if you questioned the ethics of closest friends of Mohammed then you question Mohammed's intelligence to choose friends.
Quadratus

United States

#1127 Dec 1, 2013
Thinking wrote:
Maybe your god rewards non believers better than sycophants.
You can't disprove this.
This position is more reasonable than a slavish belief in an eternal hell.
<quoted text>
Not really

Since: Oct 13

Location hidden

#1128 Dec 1, 2013
Mahmood wrote:
Even if we have Usman’s Koran, how do we verify that Usman’s Koran is authentic? Islamic politics became dirty as soon as Mohammad took his last breath. How sincere Usman was in his endeavour remains in doubt. No hard evidence for the existence of the Koran in any form before the last decade of the 7th CE. There is no cogent ground for accepting Islamic traditions. The Koran is strikingly lacking in overall structure, frequently obscure and inconsequential in both language.
No corroborative evidence to substantiate the claim that the Koran existed in its present form during the 7th century. The orthodox position concerning the collection & codification of the Koran is motivated by dogmatic factors and cannot be supported by historical evidence. Truth does not demand belief. Truth has merits on its own.
If you actually believe that the Quran was not kept the same then you clearly Lost your Islam and would be considered as an apostate, Because allah said

15:9 "Indeed, it is We who sent down the Qur'an and indeed, We will be its guardian."

if you don't believe this single verse then you are directly saying that Allah is a liar or that he was not capable to guard Quran and keep it safe from fabrications and manipulations.

the verses we already discussed regarding Christians and previous nations is not a contradiction but you don't know the accurate criteria to extract rules and laws from Quranic verses, people study the science of Tafsir Al Quran for years so you cannot just simply come and say this is a contradiction and this is not.

Allah also clearly says that the Quran never contradicts

41:42 "Falsehood cannot approach it from before it or from behind it; [it is] a revelation from a [Lord who is] Wise and Praiseworthy. "

I think you have been reading in some of untrusted websites who knows nothing about the philosophy of The Quran and nearly nothing about Islamic teachings and rules, and of course have zero knowledge in Arabic Language and the method of extracting rules from Quran (Tafsir), An educated person will instantly know that the writers of such articles are hypocrites and/or uneducated.
Thinking

Windsor, UK

#1129 Dec 1, 2013
Assad is an alawhite muslim.
hazem selawi wrote:
<quoted text>
Hahaha Assad of Syria Al Shaytan Al Akbar !!!, unfortunately the situation in Syria is really Fu!!ed up, we no longer can tell who is right and who is wrong, Bashar Al Assad is a Secular, he has nothing to do with Islam while the other party the Syrian opposition or what is called "the free army" is divided into tens of sects and they all claim to be good Muslims although they obviously broke almost every rule in Islam.
we only have theories about what is happening in there, its a big fuc!!ing show, what do you think about the situation there ?!
Thinking

Windsor, UK

#1130 Dec 1, 2013
I know loads of people that don't like sycophants but believing in an eternal hell seems moronic.
Quadratus wrote:
<quoted text>
Not really

“Evil Atheist :-)”

Since: Mar 07

Location hidden

#1131 Dec 1, 2013
hazem selawi wrote:
<quoted text>
Wow man, you found out about this Hadith of Umar Bin Khattab , there is a complicated methox of explaining verses called AL-NASIKH WA AL-MANSUKH Science, if you really want to understand Al Nasikh wa Al Mansukh you gotta ask a specialized scholar, Al NASIKH WA AL-MANSUKH is mainly about putting a verse instead of a Hadith or a A Hadith instead of A Verse.
The Quran on Naskh The principle of naskh (abrogation) is referred to in the Quran itself and is not a later historical development:
2:106 "None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause it to be forgotten, but We substitute something better or similar: knowest thou that God has power over all things? "
So there was a verse about stoning adulterers to death but it was abrogated so adulterers are no longer to be stoned to death?

Why the change of mind? Is your God indecisive?

Abrogation only makes any sense if a verse is revealed to deal with a temporary problem that's then resolved. Adultery's still here.

This is why the hadith is indicating it's a lost verse not a abrogated verse.

“Evil Atheist :-)”

Since: Mar 07

Location hidden

#1132 Dec 1, 2013
hazem selawi wrote:
<quoted text>
In Islam its different because scholars and imams cannot give answers without evidences and clues from the Quran and/or hadiths of Mohammed, its not like an imam can come up with his own answer, he has to do it depending on a specific method and criteria.
But self proclaimed prophets can.

Actually Iman can make up rules simply be reinterpreting the verses to suit their views.
hazem selawi wrote:
the purpose of life can be found in Quran and in some hadiths;
51:56 "And I did not create the jinn and mankind except to worship Me.
So God created man to tell God he's wonderful?
Doesn't he already now that?
hazem selawi wrote:
51 :57 "I do not want from them any provision, nor do I want them to feed Me.Indeed, it is Allah who is the [continual] Provider, the firm possessor of strength "
67:2 "[He] who created death and life to test you [as to] which of you is best in deed - and He is the Exalted in Might, the Forgiving "
But a test for what?
hazem selawi wrote:
we have to understand the meaning of worshiping god, worshiping god isnt only about praying, when you worship god the creator you know that "If the whole of mankind gathered to do some thing to help us, they could not help in anything which Allah had not already written for us. And if the whole of mankind gathered together to harm us, then they would not be able to harm with anything which Allah had not already written for us." Hadith
That makes us puppets in a play with no free will to do good or bad.

What's the point of the test then?
hazem selawi wrote:
when you worship the creator you know that he is all hearing and all seeing thus you'll live your life according to his rules in order to survive in this life and the afterlife
"There is nothing like him, and he is the hearer and seer of all."
Allah is merciful because he created the mankind with a great sense to know the difference between right and wrong.
91:7-10
And [by] the soul and He who proportioned it
And inspired it [with discernment of] its wickedness and its righteousness
He has succeeded who purifies it
And he has failed who instills it [with corruption].
So basically Allah created mankind to worship him Although he doesn't need our worshiping , he even made it so easy for humans to believe because they already have the sense of knowing right from wrong, besides worshiping makes your current life easier and better in all aspects, it even makes the whole world better and also guarantee your survival in the after life.
2:30 "And [mention, O Muhammad], when your Lord said to the angels, "Indeed, I will make upon the earth a successive authority." They said, "Will You place upon it one who causes corruption therein and sheds blood, while we declare Your praise and sanctify You?" Allah said, "Indeed, I know that which you do not know."
This still comes down to God created man to tell God he's wonderful.
Why should God care if we worship him and why is he so bad at spreading his message?

Since: Oct 13

Location hidden

#1133 Dec 1, 2013
Thinking wrote:
Assad is an alawhite muslim.
<quoted text>
yes he is an alawite shia muslim, his beliefs are way different than other muslims, Alawis follow a branch of the Twelver school of Shia Islam

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alawites

Since: Oct 13

Location hidden

#1134 Dec 1, 2013
Igor Trip wrote:
<quoted text>
So there was a verse about stoning adulterers to death but it was abrogated so adulterers are no longer to be stoned to death?
Why the change of mind? Is your God indecisive?
Abrogation only makes any sense if a verse is revealed to deal with a temporary problem that's then resolved. Adultery's still here.
This is why the hadith is indicating it's a lost verse not a abrogated verse.
The verse was dafinetly abrogated not lost, a verse can be abrogated by a Hadith, and there are numerous authentic hadiths about stoning to death.

2:106 "None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause it to be forgotten, but We substitute something better or similar: knowest thou that God has power over all things? "

If you want to know more about Al Nasikh wa Al Mansukh you have to ask a specialized scholar, if you know any.

there are multiple examples of this method, Sunnah completes the Quran and anyways Mohammeds words (Hadiths) were also revealed to him not only Quran.
Quadratus

United States

#1135 Dec 1, 2013
Thinking wrote:
I know loads of people that don't like sycophants but believing in an eternal hell seems moronic.
<quoted text>
If God created the universe He is Huge beyond our imagination. If He is proportional, His morality /holiness is about the same greatness as His genius and creative ability. Thats a pretty intense holiness. His judgment against evil is based on His holiness. From this line of reasoning to eternal hell is not a large jump.
Secondly, what is hell? The Old Testament gives pretty consistent testimony to the effect the presence of Gods glory has on sinful man. It is lethal, and painful. If we are created as eternal beings who will live forever somewhere, and God will have His universe filled with His undiluted glory - how will that feel to those still in their sins. Jesus warned not to die in your sins, and thats probably why.
Thinking

Windsor, UK

#1136 Dec 1, 2013
Why should I care what particular flavour of your mental religion he is?

You muslims have been murdering each other for 1300+ years.
hazem selawi wrote:
<quoted text>
yes he is an alawite shia muslim, his beliefs are way different than other muslims, Alawis follow a branch of the Twelver school of Shia Islam
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alawites
Thinking

Windsor, UK

#1137 Dec 1, 2013
If your god is good I'll be just fine.

If your god is all powerful, it will have no need of sycophants.
Quadratus wrote:
<quoted text>
If God created the universe He is Huge beyond our imagination. If He is proportional, His morality /holiness is about the same greatness as His genius and creative ability. Thats a pretty intense holiness. His judgment against evil is based on His holiness. From this line of reasoning to eternal hell is not a large jump.
Secondly, what is hell? The Old Testament gives pretty consistent testimony to the effect the presence of Gods glory has on sinful man. It is lethal, and painful. If we are created as eternal beings who will live forever somewhere, and God will have His universe filled with His undiluted glory - how will that feel to those still in their sins. Jesus warned not to die in your sins, and thats probably why.
LCNLin

United States

#1138 Dec 1, 2013
hazem selawi wrote:
<quoted text>
yes he is an alawite shia muslim, his beliefs are way different than other muslims, Alawis follow a branch of the Twelver school of Shia Islam
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alawites
You are most likely are
wasting your time.

(Thinking) is his name on thread,
there seems no evidence that the name
is related to cerebral activity!

Since: Oct 13

Location hidden

#1139 Dec 1, 2013
Igor Trip wrote:
<quoted text>
But self proclaimed prophets can.
Actually Iman can make up rules simply be reinterpreting the verses to suit their views.
No not any Imam or muslim scholar can make up rules , because already most of rules and laws were agreed by the big scholars and the four MADHHABS long time ago, the scientists disagree with a few rules and each one of them has his own opinion regarding a specific issue, but they all have to follow a specific method, So After all different opinions make it easier for people because there are different circumstances , If Islam was very solid it cannot survive thus disagreement and multiple opinions make Islam more flexible.

Like the marriage contract for instance, Some Madhhabs say that you cannot add a term that give the wife the right to say Talliq instead of the Husband , another madhhab say its okay if the man agreed of such a term, so different opinions is important as long as the scholar is following the accurate method to extract rules (Al IJTIHAD.)

what if "Igor trip" Studied Fiqh and Tafsir, and came up saying we shouldnt pray 5 prayers a day, we only have to pray 4 times a day only, nobody will even listen to you because saying so means that you ignored numerous Hadiths and actions of Mohammed.
Igor Trip wrote:
<quoted text>
That makes us puppets in a play with no free will to do good or bad.
What's the point of the test then?
the creator knows what you are going to do in the next 5 seconds, tomorrow and even for your whole life, but what if the creator Skipped all life and just brought you back to life at the day of resurrection and said that he will put you in eternal hell, that will be unfair, that's why he knows what your going to do and already knows what you are gonna choose but at the same time gave you the ability to choose, and the good thing about it is that you don't know what is will happen in the future, So the creator took care if you while you were in your mother's womb, brought you to this life and gave you parents to take care of you, gave you eyes, ears and mind to make choices and gave you the right to believe or disbelieve.
Igor Trip wrote:
<quoted text>
This still comes down to God created man to tell God he's wonderful.
Why should God care if we worship him and why is he so bad at spreading his message?
Allah mentioned that he doesn't need our worshiping, its we who need to worship him, Worshiping god will benefit us in this life and the hereafter.

mankind is like a bunch of mosquitoes who will head directly to the mosquito killer lamp no matter how hard you try to prevent them not to, Humans most of the time follow their lusts which will eventually kill or harm them just like that mosquito which likes the glowing lamp that will kill it.

Humans don't like restrictions, Allah tells us through his prophets not to commit adultery, not to drink alcohol not to kill ..etc but we do the exact opposite thus we will spread corruption and eventually destroy ourselves, our Planet and most of us wont survive in the afterlife.

2:30 "when your Lord said to the angels, "Indeed, I will make upon the earth a successive authority." They said, "Will You place upon it one who causes corruption therein and sheds blood, while we declare Your praise and sanctify You?" Allah said, "Indeed, I know that which you do not know."

Allah decided to make upon the earth a successive authority which is the human beings, the angels said will you place upon it who causes corruption and sheds blood while we declare your praise and sanctify you ?!! The difference between us and the angels is that we have the ability to choose, we have the freedom of choice, thus Allah knows that there are good people who will follow the right path.

If god was so bad at spreading his message you wouldn't know about Mohammed, Moses ,Issa and other previous prophets, and we wouldnt be discussing Islam in the middle of the night.

Since: Oct 13

Location hidden

#1140 Dec 1, 2013
LCNLin wrote:
<quoted text>
You are most likely are
wasting your time.
(Thinking) is his name on thread,
there seems no evidence that the name
is related to cerebral activity!
you never know man, maybe someday he'll really start to think
Quadratus

United States

#1141 Dec 1, 2013
Thinking wrote:
If your god is good I'll be just fine.
If your god is all powerful, it will have no need of sycophants.
<quoted text>
Good luck to ya.
Quadratus

United States

#1142 Dec 1, 2013
So Hazem, where are you from?
Mahmood

Mississauga, Canada

#1143 Dec 1, 2013
hazem selawi wrote:
<quoted text>
Mahmoud what do you know about the closest and best companions of Mohammed ?!!! read their biographies from a trusted source , if you really believe what you wrote up there then you are a shiat not a Sunni, its whether you were lying to me when you said that you left Islam or you are a shiat in the first place ..!!
Be honest to me and stop practicing false Taqqiya, Taqqiya is hypocrisy , your imams tricked you, you will not get rewarded if you cursed Abu Bakr, Umar and Aisha.
I think you were trying to prove that Umar and Usman changed the Quran to convince us that there is &#1616;A Surah Called Al Wilaya which proves that Ali was supposed to be the Kaliph and the Imam , we as Sunnis love Ali more than ourselves, don't waste your time thinking about what happened between Ali and Mouawya.
Besides do you actually believe that the closest companions of Mohammed would hurt Fatima ???...!!! or wouldn't follow Islam accurately, Those Companions and Caliphs succeeded to spread Islam's message more than you can imagine, if you questioned the ethics of closest friends of Mohammed then you question Mohammed's intelligence to choose friends.
I was a shia when I was a muslim. My information is all penned by Muslim sources, so when you say "trusted sources", I am not quite what you mean by trusted sources? The history of Islam is spurious and sketchy written hundreds of years after the fact.

Mohammad never left behind any instructions as to who should lead the muslim community after his death. Why he did that? No one knows. The completion and codification of the Koran never crossed his mind. Nowhere in the Koran does it state that an Islamic government must be set up after Mohammad’s death. In fact there is no such thing as an Islamic state in the Koran. What ended up happening is that the Qurayashi Arabs took hold of the reigns of power and pre-Islamic traditions and Arab tribalism returned.

Islamic history is dirty. Three of the four caliphs were butchered....so what are you talking about? None of them were elected by means of free and fair elections? That is why democracy is incompatible with Islam.

When Usman came to power, things began to go horribly wrong. He encouraged nepotism. People of questionable character such as Muawiyah were appointed governor. Tribal pride continued to remain of supreme importance. Arab conquests intoxicated the Arabs with pride & considered themselves superior to non-Arabs. Even those non-Arabs who converted to Islam were known as “mawalis”.

Looking forward to your response.
Thinking

Windsor, UK

#1144 Dec 1, 2013
Like you and me, Hazem is descended from the Supraprimates.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euarchontoglires
Quadratus wrote:
So Hazem, where are you from?
Mahmood

Mississauga, Canada

#1145 Dec 1, 2013
hazem selawi wrote:
<quoted text>
If you actually believe that the Quran was not kept the same then you clearly Lost your Islam and would be considered as an apostate, Because allah said
15:9 "Indeed, it is We who sent down the Qur'an and indeed, We will be its guardian."
if you don't believe this single verse then you are directly saying that Allah is a liar or that he was not capable to guard Quran and keep it safe from fabrications and manipulations.
the verses we already discussed regarding Christians and previous nations is not a contradiction but you don't know the accurate criteria to extract rules and laws from Quranic verses, people study the science of Tafsir Al Quran for years so you cannot just simply come and say this is a contradiction and this is not.
Allah also clearly says that the Quran never contradicts
41:42 "Falsehood cannot approach it from before it or from behind it; [it is] a revelation from a [Lord who is] Wise and Praiseworthy. "
I think you have been reading in some of untrusted websites who knows nothing about the philosophy of The Quran and nearly nothing about Islamic teachings and rules, and of course have zero knowledge in Arabic Language and the method of extracting rules from Quran (Tafsir), An educated person will instantly know that the writers of such articles are hypocrites and/or uneducated.
I am an apostate. If allah claims to be the almighty creator of the universe then he is a liar. In my opinion, I believe he happens to be someone's alter ego. When allah says "we sent down the Koran" what does he mean by "we", are there more than one allah? And you are right, I dont trust the Koran which is full of plagiarizm. The Koran if anything, is an effusion of Mohammad's emotions and a reflection of his ideas. Koran has little merit. Koran is a declamation, repetition, a lack of logic and coherence, and a mediocre piece of literature. Millions of people are wasting time absorbing it.

The orthodox position concerning the collection & codification of the Koran is motivated by dogmatic factors and cannot be supported by historical evidence. Concept of prophethood is an integral tradtion of Middle Eastern culture. All prophets somehow emerged out of the dessert region. Mohammad was the Johnny come lately of the Abrahamic faith.

The Koran incoherent rhapsody of fables, plagiarized from pre-Islamic sources. I can show you several examples where authors have borrowed narratives from ancient rabbinical and Xtian literature. I do not rely on non-muslim sources for anything, I only read the Koran and I ask questions. I also read tafsirs, but I do not rely on them either because they were all written by 13th and 14th century scholars.

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