Richard Dawkins - God is evil, pedoph...

Richard Dawkins - God is evil, pedophilesa not so bad

There are 3146 comments on the Examiner.com story from Sep 14, 2013, titled Richard Dawkins - God is evil, pedophilesa not so bad. In it, Examiner.com reports that:

"The God of the Qur'an is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully.

Join the discussion below, or Read more at Examiner.com.

Since: Oct 13

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#3108 Apr 21, 2014
Igor Trip wrote:
<quoted text>
The Christians getting the story wrong doesn't mean the Quran got it right.
Maybe Paul got it wrong and unfortunately they all followed what Paul said or concluded.
Igor Trip wrote:
<quoted text>
You're right. I forgot about John the baptist.
John the baptist name in the Quran is Prophet Yahya the son of Zakaria and we as muslims are not sure if he and his father were killed by the Jews or Died normally, Ibn Kathir suggests that Yahya was killed by the Jews and others responded that such info is only mentioned by the people of the books (Christians and Jews).
Igor Trip wrote:
<quoted text>
Because they didn't think he was a prophet.
The Quran admits there were many false prophets and Muslims are quite happy with the idea of them being put to death. So the question is how do we tell real prophets from false ones? Of course if there are no real prophets (which is my view) then it's not surprising that so many fall foul of the established priesthood.
we may be happy with the idea of putting false prophets to death, but the Quran doesn't say anything about false prophets, that is a very good question how do we know real prophets from false ones ??? in my opinion it depends on that particular prophets' teachings, saying, acts and the nature of the message itself.
Igor Trip wrote:
<quoted text>
In the Quran we are told many times that Jesus is not the son of God. What we don't get is his life story. There's more about his mother than him.
If you disagree then please provide verses about his life and miracles.
Although the life story of Jesus in the Quran is too long to be discussed on this thread, I'll provide verses from the Quran about his life in a different response and maybe we can make a quick comparison between the story of Jesus in the Quran and his story in the Bible.
Igor Trip wrote:
<quoted text>
About 2014 years ago a baby was born, possible to a carpenter.
About 33 years later he was an itinerant preacher, preaching his own views on Judaism and the temple priests.
He cause enough trouble and preached enough heretical ideas for the Priests to have him killed by the Romans.
but the Jews back then were living under Romans authority, hence they weren't applying the teachings of the Old Testament, I assume the Romans were threatened and didn't want to lose the authority, after all Jesus said that he came to confirm the old testament teachings and for sure didn't come to abolish them, However, the Jews from the beginning tried to deceive Jesus but since he was also a Jew he was as smart as they were, if we take in consideration the story of the scribes and the Pharisees bringing a woman to Jesus (PBUH) and claimed that she committed adultery, Jesus only had two choices its whether he stone that woman to death or set her free, so if he stoned her to death he might get killed by the Romans or at least go to prison ( remember the punishment of committing adultery wasn't to be stoned to death under the Roman authority), and if he set her free Jews would say he is not a real prophet because he is clearly not following the teachings of the Torah (OT), according to the Bible While Jesus Remains seated he bends over and writes with his finger on the ground, He straightened up, and said to them,“He who is without sin among you, let him be the first to throw a stone at her, Again He stooped down and wrote on the ground." they left one after the another till Jesus remained alone with the woman, anyways my point is that those people were testing Jesus in order to have grounds for accusing Him, on the other Hand we as Muslims would say "hold on a second if that Woman was caught on the act of committing adultery then where is the man ?!!! and where are the witnesses ??! it was only a trick but Jesus (PBUH) knew how to get out of it.

Since: Oct 13

Location hidden

#3109 Apr 21, 2014
nanoanomaly wrote:
<quoted text>It's not about being "equal". I suspect you are confusing "free will" with human "rights" or some such garbage.
Having or wanting two husbands is not inherently evil like being a serial killer is. Why would you even attempt to try to insinuate that a woman doing the same as a man is evil?
Is it justice to make a woman share her husband with other wives? Women are no less jealous than men are. "Civilized" men should be able to share one wife, but you aren't speaking about a civilized society, you're speaking of Islamic society...one that does not value women as highly as it does men.
My original point was that in America there are over 10 million more men than women, and of course there are more than 25 million gays, so if all men got married there would at least be over 35 million women who cannot get a husband ..!!!

not to mention that most women wouldn't mind get married while men always hesitate maybe because they are too happy looking for single women every night and trick them to bed but anyways under the above hypotheses we would still have 30 to 35 million women who will never be able to get any husbands, and no husband means no children, no life and dying alone when you are old, Islam simply offers a very logical and rational solution.

allowing women to marry more than one husband will do nothing but adding unnecessary extra complications such as;

1- pregnancy complications and Mixing of lineages ( it wouldn't be that easy to determine the biological father of a particular child), and that in its turn will also lead to problems in dividing the inheritance after the passing of one of the fathers or one of the husbands.

2- provoking the feelings of men and that also may lead to extra complications and problems in the community, hence the statistics prove to us that men are usually way more violent than women and it is universally accepted that Men are more likely to commit crimes, thus instead of an innocent Cute jealousy by women, men would start killing or at least harming each others.

3- I am not an expert in women's psychology but I did communicate with some and I personally believe that women always look for stability specially in marriage, and forcing or allowing women to get married to more than one man wouldn't fit women psychology.

I am not saying that I am capable of taking care of more than one wife, All I am saying is that polygamy under Islamic rules may be a very good solution to some of the problems we are facing today, Islam clearly teaches that for one to be able to get married to more than one wife he should be Financially,physically (sexually), emotionally and most of all fair and Just and of course should treat all of his wives equally.

“Evil Atheist :-)”

Since: Mar 07

Location hidden

#3110 Apr 22, 2014
hazem selawi wrote:
<quoted text>
Maybe Paul got it wrong and unfortunately they all followed what Paul said or concluded.
But Paul getting it wrong doesn't mean the Quran got it right.
The question now becomes why was Paul able to corrupt the story when it would be so easy for Jesus disciples to write it down correctly?
hazem selawi wrote:
John the baptist name in the Quran is Prophet Yahya the son of Zakaria and we as muslims are not sure if he and his father were killed by the Jews or Died normally, Ibn Kathir suggests that Yahya was killed by the Jews and others responded that such info is only mentioned by the people of the books (Christians and Jews).
According to the gospels it was the jewish king Herod who had him killed.

Mark 6 verses 16/28
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...
hazem selawi wrote:
we may be happy with the idea of putting false prophets to death, but the Quran doesn't say anything about false prophets, that is a very good question how do we know real prophets from false ones ??? in my opinion it depends on that particular prophets' teachings, saying, acts and the nature of the message itself.
So how do you tell a prophet apart from some guy who just tells you want you want to hear?
hazem selawi wrote:
Although the life story of Jesus in the Quran is too long to be discussed on this thread, I'll provide verses from the Quran about his life in a different response and maybe we can make a quick comparison between the story of Jesus in the Quran and his story in the Bible.
I think you'll be surprised at just how little there is.
hazem selawi wrote:
but the Jews back then were living under Romans authority, hence they weren't applying the teachings of the Old Testament, I assume the Romans were threatened and didn't want to lose the authority, after all Jesus said that he came to confirm the old testament teachings and for sure didn't come to abolish them, However, the Jews from the beginning tried to deceive Jesus but since he was also a Jew he was as smart as they were, if we take in consideration the story of the scribes and the Pharisees bringing a woman to Jesus (PBUH) and claimed that she committed adultery, Jesus only had two choices its whether he stone that woman to death or set her free, so if he stoned her to death he might get killed by the Romans or at least go to prison ( remember the punishment of committing adultery wasn't to be stoned to death under the Roman authority), and if he set her free Jews would say he is not a real prophet because he is clearly not following the teachings of the Torah (OT), according to the Bible While Jesus Remains seated he bends over and writes with his finger on the ground, He straightened up, and said to them,“He who is without sin among you, let him be the first to throw a stone at her, Again He stooped down and wrote on the ground." they left one after the another till Jesus remained alone with the woman, anyways my point is that those people were testing Jesus in order to have grounds for accusing Him, on the other Hand we as Muslims would say "hold on a second if that Woman was caught on the act of committing adultery then where is the man ?!!! and where are the witnesses ??! it was only a trick but Jesus (PBUH) knew how to get out of it.
Yes he was tested, but did he pass? The adulteress walk away unpunished when the Quran says she should be whipped.
Jesus didn't say she was innocent, only that those in the crowd were themselves sinners.
Thinking

Wellingborough, UK

#3111 Apr 22, 2014
Homosexuality is exclusively male?
There are no lesbians?
You abject retarded muppet.
hazem selawi wrote:
<quoted text>
My original point was that in America there are over 10 million more men than women, and of course there are more than 25 million gays, so if all men got married there would at least be over 35 million women who cannot get a husband ..!!!
not to mention that most women wouldn't mind get married while men always hesitate maybe because they are too happy looking for single women every night and trick them to bed but anyways under the above hypotheses we would still have 30 to 35 million women who will never be able to get any husbands, and no husband means no children, no life and dying alone when you are old, Islam simply offers a very logical and rational solution.
allowing women to marry more than one husband will do nothing but adding unnecessary extra complications such as;
1- pregnancy complications and Mixing of lineages ( it wouldn't be that easy to determine the biological father of a particular child), and that in its turn will also lead to problems in dividing the inheritance after the passing of one of the fathers or one of the husbands.
2- provoking the feelings of men and that also may lead to extra complications and problems in the community, hence the statistics prove to us that men are usually way more violent than women and it is universally accepted that Men are more likely to commit crimes, thus instead of an innocent Cute jealousy by women, men would start killing or at least harming each others.
3- I am not an expert in women's psychology but I did communicate with some and I personally believe that women always look for stability specially in marriage, and forcing or allowing women to get married to more than one man wouldn't fit women psychology.
I am not saying that I am capable of taking care of more than one wife, All I am saying is that polygamy under Islamic rules may be a very good solution to some of the problems we are facing today, Islam clearly teaches that for one to be able to get married to more than one wife he should be Financially,physically (sexually), emotionally and most of all fair and Just and of course should treat all of his wives equally.

“Is that all you've got?”

Since: Jun 10

Location hidden

#3112 Apr 23, 2014
hazem selawi wrote:
<quoted text>
My original point was that in America there are over 10 million more men than women, and of course there are more than 25 million gays, so if all men got married there would at least be over 35 million women who cannot get a husband ..!!!
not to mention that most women wouldn't mind get married while men always hesitate maybe because they are too happy looking for single women every night and trick them to bed but anyways under the above hypotheses we would still have 30 to 35 million women who will never be able to get any husbands, and no husband means no children, no life and dying alone when you are old, Islam simply offers a very logical and rational solution.
allowing women to marry more than one husband will do nothing but adding unnecessary extra complications such as;
1- pregnancy complications and Mixing of lineages ( it wouldn't be that easy to determine the biological father of a particular child), and that in its turn will also lead to problems in dividing the inheritance after the passing of one of the fathers or one of the husbands.
2- provoking the feelings of men and that also may lead to extra complications and problems in the community, hence the statistics prove to us that men are usually way more violent than women and it is universally accepted that Men are more likely to commit crimes, thus instead of an innocent Cute jealousy by women, men would start killing or at least harming each others.
3- I am not an expert in women's psychology but I did communicate with some and I personally believe that women always look for stability specially in marriage, and forcing or allowing women to get married to more than one man wouldn't fit women psychology.
I am not saying that I am capable of taking care of more than one wife, All I am saying is that polygamy under Islamic rules may be a very good solution to some of the problems we are facing today, Islam clearly teaches that for one to be able to get married to more than one wife he should be Financially,physically (sexually), emotionally and most of all fair and Just and of course should treat all of his wives equally.
I have never met a polygamist who treated all of his wives equally. Some one always feels slighted, ignored and jealous.

“When you treat people as they ”

Since: Nov 10

treat you they get offended.

#3113 Apr 24, 2014
nanoanomaly wrote:
<quoted text>It's not about being "equal". I suspect you are confusing "free will" with human "rights" or some such garbage.
Having or wanting two husbands is not inherently evil like being a serial killer is. Why would you even attempt to try to insinuate that a woman doing the same as a man is evil?
Is it justice to make a woman share her husband with other wives? Women are no less jealous than men are. "Civilized" men should be able to share one wife, but you aren't speaking about a civilized society, you're speaking of Islamic society...one that does not value women as highly as it does men.
My goodness Nano, I believe this is now the second time you have posted something I can ‘mostly’ agree with.

Human rights is not ‘some such garbage’, it may be an ideology rejected by some in the US for their own perverse reasons but the majority of the world has other ideas.

Jealousy is a personality trait, but you are essentially correct that women who suffer from jealousy are pretty equal to men who suffer from jealousy.

But as for the rest – thumbs up…

Having patted you on the back can I now sit back and expect a stream of expletives from you?

Since: Oct 13

Location hidden

#3114 Apr 27, 2014
nanoanomaly wrote:
<quoted text>I have never met a polygamist who treated all of his wives equally. Some one always feels slighted, ignored and jealous.
I cannot say that I met a polygamist either, and of course the husband cannot be entirely equal because you know that sometimes one cannot control his feelings, but a Muslim polygamist should treat all of his wives equally, for instance you cannot buy a specific wife a luxurious house and throw others in a small flat, it is also prohibited to spend more time with some wife &#1608; because the Quran clearly says "....... But if you fear that you will not be just, then [marry only] one ...... " 4:3

Since: Oct 13

Location hidden

#3115 Apr 27, 2014
Thinking wrote:
Homosexuality is exclusively male?
There are no lesbians?
You abject retarded muppet.
<quoted text>
I don't get your point.

Since: Oct 13

Location hidden

#3116 Apr 27, 2014
Igor Trip wrote:
<quoted text>
But Paul getting it wrong doesn't mean the Quran got it right.
The question now becomes why was Paul able to corrupt the story when it would be so easy for Jesus disciples to write it down correctly?
that is a very good question, allow me to add how come Christianity was spread all over the world in a very few decades ??!!! Although it is very clear that the roman authorities didn't like Jesus nor his teachings, I am afraid Christianity was later fabricated and was mixed with some Greek beliefs for political domination purposes.
Igor Trip wrote:
<quoted text>
So how do you tell a prophet apart from some guy who just tells you want you want to hear?
you cannot believe in a prophet without being able to test the miracles given to him, actually I don't think prophets tell us what we want to hear sometimes it is exactly the opposite, I think it is a human nature issue, we don't like any methods and would love to do whatever satisfies our desires and lusts.

for instance I would love to hear that it is okay to have sex and get drunk everyday but prophet Mohammed made it clear that such things are completely prohibited, which is of course logical and completely rational if we take in consideration the consequences of performing such actions in one's life in particular and to the community in general.
Igor Trip wrote:
<quoted text>
I think you'll be surprised at just how little there is.
Yes he was tested, but did he pass? The adulteress walk away unpunished when the Quran says she should be whipped.
Jesus didn't say she was innocent, only that those in the crowd were themselves sinners.
Sorry for the delayed response regarding Jesus story in the Quran, I am planning to show you the life story of Jesus in the Quran in details, I hope you don't mind if we divided the story of Jesus into different parts and maybe we can make a comparison between the Quran and the Bible, if you don't mind we can discuss each point at a time, and the parts will be as follow:

1- Mariam status in the Quran (mary the mother of Jesus) before, during and after pregnancy.
2- the first miracle of Jesus (PBUH) and the first reaction of people when they saw him.
3- Jesus message and his miracles.
4- was he killed or did Allah save him from that heinous death on the cross ?

“Evil Atheist :-)”

Since: Mar 07

Location hidden

#3117 Apr 27, 2014
hazem selawi wrote:
<quoted text>
that is a very good question, allow me to add how come Christianity was spread all over the world in a very few decades ??!!! Although it is very clear that the roman authorities didn't like Jesus nor his teachings, I am afraid Christianity was later fabricated and was mixed with some Greek beliefs for political domination purposes.
But if Jesus and his followers had properly recorded his message and made and distributed many copies his message could never have been corrupted.
This failure for me disproves the whole story (both Christian and Muslim).
hazem selawi wrote:
you cannot believe in a prophet without being able to test the miracles given to him, actually I don't think prophets tell us what we want to hear sometimes it is exactly the opposite, I think it is a human nature issue, we don't like any methods and would love to do whatever satisfies our desires and lusts.
for instance I would love to hear that it is okay to have sex and get drunk everyday but prophet Mohammed made it clear that such things are completely prohibited, which is of course logical and completely rational if we take in consideration the consequences of performing such actions in one's life in particular and to the community in general.
Considering the Quran allows men to have sex with their slaves, sex is hardly prohibited.
It's easy to see the harmful effects of alcohol but much harder to actually stop people drinking too much or using other drugs.
hazem selawi wrote:
Sorry for the delayed response regarding Jesus story in the Quran, I am planning to show you the life story of Jesus in the Quran in details, I hope you don't mind if we divided the story of Jesus into different parts and maybe we can make a comparison between the Quran and the Bible, if you don't mind we can discuss each point at a time, and the parts will be as follow:
1- Mariam status in the Quran (mary the mother of Jesus) before, during and after pregnancy.
2- the first miracle of Jesus (PBUH) and the first reaction of people when they saw him.
3- Jesus message and his miracles.
4- was he killed or did Allah save him from that heinous death on the cross ?
Take all the time you need:-) I'm in no hurry.

Since: Oct 13

Location hidden

#3118 Apr 27, 2014
Igor Trip wrote:
<quoted text>
.....
1- Mariam status in the Quran (mary the mother of Jesus) before, during and after pregnancy:

A- The Birth of Mary

"“Indeed God chose Adam, Noah, the family of Abraham and the family of Imran over the worlds. An offspring, like one another (in righteousness). And God is All-Hearing, All-Knowing.(And mention) when the wife of Imran said,‘O my Lord, I have vowed to You what is in my womb, to be dedicated (to Your service), so accept this from me. Indeed, You are All-Hearing, All-Knowing.’ Then when she delivered her (Mary), she said,‘O my Lord, I have delivered a female,’ and God knew best what she delivered,‘And the male is not like the female, and I have named her Mary, and I seek refuge with You for her and for her children from Satan, the expelled (from the mercy of God).’” 3:33-36

in this verse the Quran confirms to us that Mary came from a very honorable family and we can easily notice that her mother was a true believer and vowed what is in her womb to be dedicated to Allah's service.

B- The Childhood of Mary

“So her Lord fully accepted her, and gave her a good upbringing, and put her under the care of Zechariah. Every time Zechariah entered upon her in the prayer room, he found her supplied with food. He said,‘O Mary, where do you get this from?’ She said,‘This is from God. Indeed, God provides for whom He wills, without limit.’” 3:37

C- Mary, the Devout

“And (mention) when the angels said,‘O Mary, indeed God has chosen you, purified you, and chosen you above the women of the worlds.’‘O Mary, be devoutly obedient to your Lord and prostrate and bow down along those who bow down (in prayer).’

D- The Good news of a new-born child

“(And mention) when the angels said,‘O Mary, indeed God gives you the good news of a word from Him, whose name will be the Messiah Jesus, the son of Mary, held in honor in this world and in the Hereafter, and of those who are near to God.’‘He will speak to the people in the cradle, and in old age, and he will be of the righteous.’ She said,‘My Lord, how can I have a son when no man has touched me.’ He said,‘So (it will be,) for God creates what He wants. When He decides something, He only says to it, &#145;Be,’ and it is...." 3:45-47

“And mention in the Book (the story of) Mary, when she withdrew from her family to an eastern place. And she placed a screen to seclude herself from them. Then We sent to her Our angel (Gabriel), and he took the form of a well-created man before her. She said,“Indeed I seek refuge with the Most Merciful from you, if you do fear God.(The angel) said,‘I am only the messenger of your Lord to give to you (the news of) a pure boy.’ She said,‘How can I have a son, when no man has touched me (in marriage), and I am not a prostitute?’ He said, So your Lord said,‘It is easy for Me. And We will make him a sign to people and a mercy from Us. And it is a matter (already) decided. " 19:16-21

“And she who guarded her chastity, so We breathed (a spirit) into her through Our angel, and We made her and her son (Jesus) a sign for the worlds.” 21:91

Since: Oct 13

Location hidden

#3119 Apr 27, 2014
Continued

E- The birth of Issa

“So she conceived him, and she withdrew with him to a remote place. And the pains of childbirth drove her to the trunk of a palm tree. She said,‘I wish I had died before this, and had been long forgotten.[Mary was worried that people would think badly of her as she was not married.] Then (baby Jesus) called her from below her, saying,‘Don’t be sad. Your Lord has provided a stream under you.’ Shake the trunk of the palm tree towards you, and it will drop on you fresh ripe dates. So eat and drink and be happy. And if you see any human, then say,‘Indeed I have vowed a fast to the Most Merciful so I will not speak to any human today.’ Then she carried him and brought him to her people. They said,‘O Mary, indeed you have done a great evil.’‘O sister of Aaron, your father was not an evil man, and your mother was not a fornicator.’ So she pointed to him. They said,‘How can we speak to a child in the cradle?’(Jesus) said,‘Indeed, I am a slave of God. He has given me the Scripture and made me a prophet.[4] And He has made me blessed wherever I may be, and He has enjoined on me prayer and charity as long as I remain alive. And (has made) me kind to my mother, and did not make me arrogant or miserable. And peace be upon me the day I was born, and the day I will die, and the day I will be raised alive.’” 19:22-33

“Indeed, Jesus is like Adam in front of God. He created him from dust, then said to him,‘Be,’ and he was." 3:59

“And We made the son of Mary and his mother a sign, And We gave them refuge and rest on a high ground with flowing water." 23:50

Again the Quran confirms the Excellence of Mary

" And (the example of) Mary, the daughter of Imran, who guarded her chastity, so We blew (the spirit of Jesus) into her through Our angel (Gabriel). And she believed in the words of her Lord, and His scriptures, and she was of the devout ones.” 66:11-12

Thinking

Poole, UK

#3120 Apr 28, 2014
You won't get my point. I'm a strong supporter of same sex rights but I'm heterosexual.
hazem selawi wrote:
<quoted text>
I don't get your point.

“Evil Atheist :-)”

Since: Mar 07

Location hidden

#3121 Apr 28, 2014
Thanks hazem for the story of Mary.

This is the sort of biography I would expect from scripture as it's a fairly complete story. I do have some problems with it though.

I have no reason to believe it's true especially as it contradicts the Bibles version. There's no mention of Mary’s husband Joseph and the story of Jesus birth is totally different.

Nine months of pregnancy appears to be missing from the story.

Talking babies are big news, yet no one wrote about such a thing except in the Arabic infancy gospel. Infancy gospels are considered the works of forgers.

There's also the problem of just who was Mary's father.
Imran (Amram) was the father of Moses, Aaron and their sister Miriam (Mary) and lived at least a thousand years before Jesus.
Yet those verses say that Mary's mother was Imran's wife (3:35), Imran was here father (66:11) and she's the sister of Aaron (19:28).

Since: Oct 13

Location hidden

#3122 Apr 30, 2014
Igor Trip wrote:
Thanks hazem for the story of Mary.
This is the sort of biography I would expect from scripture as it's a fairly complete story. I do have some problems with it though.
I have no reason to believe it's true especially as it contradicts the Bibles version. There's no mention of Mary’s husband Joseph and the story of Jesus birth is totally different.
Nine months of pregnancy appears to be missing from the story.
Talking babies are big news, yet no one wrote about such a thing except in the Arabic infancy gospel. Infancy gospels are considered the works of forgers.
There's also the problem of just who was Mary's father.
Imran (Amram) was the father of Moses, Aaron and their sister Miriam (Mary) and lived at least a thousand years before Jesus.
Yet those verses say that Mary's mother was Imran's wife (3:35), Imran was here father (66:11) and she's the sister of Aaron (19:28).
you are welcome, it is always a pleasure.

you were supposed to bring up what the bible says about Mary :P but never mind anyways I totally agree with you that you shouldn't believe that the Quran story is true, at least not yet, your concern regarding the Quran saying that Mary is actually the sister of Aoron or Harun is completely understandable, I think we previously agreed that when you read the Quran in English you are only reading the translation of interpretation of specific verses, lets see for instance how Muhsin khan translated verse 19:28

Mohsin Khan:"O sister (i.e. the like) of Harun (Aaron)! Your father was not a man who used to commit adultery, nor your mother was an unchaste woman." 19:28

so the Quran never claimed that Mary was sister of Aaron,the brother of Moses.

i think the Quran English translators specially Muhsin khan knew that there this verse would be confusing for non Arabs in particular,so he tried to give good understand to readers.

the Quran is just trying to tell us that Mary was as good as Harun sister, not to mention that the Quran clearly states that Mary was living in the time Zecharia.

“Evil Atheist :-)”

Since: Mar 07

Location hidden

#3123 Apr 30, 2014
I don't actually care what the Bible says about Mary but here is Lukes version.

Luke 1
5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth.

7 And they had no child, because that Elisabeth was barren, and they both were now well stricken in years.

11 And there appeared unto him an angel of the Lord standing on the right side of the altar of incense.

12 And when Zacharias saw him, he was troubled, and fear fell upon him.

13 But the angel said unto him, Fear not, Zacharias: for thy prayer is heard; and thy wife Elisabeth shall bear thee a son, and thou shalt call his name John.

14 And thou shalt have joy and gladness; and many shall rejoice at his birth.

15 For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.

16 And many of the children of Israel shall he turn to the Lord their God.

17 And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.

21 And the people waited for Zacharias, and marvelled that he tarried so long in the temple.

24 And after those days his wife Elisabeth conceived, and hid herself five months, saying,

25 Thus hath the Lord dealt with me in the days wherein he looked on me, to take away my reproach among men.

26 And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth,

27 To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary.

28 And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.

29 And when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and cast in her mind what manner of salutation this should be.

30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.

31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name Jesus.

32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:

33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?

35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

36 And, behold, thy cousin Elisabeth, she hath also conceived a son in her old age: and this is the sixth month with her, who was called barren.

37 For with God nothing shall be impossible.

38 And Mary said, Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word. And the angel departed from her.

39 And Mary arose in those days, and went into the hill country with haste, into a city of Juda;

40 And entered into the house of Zacharias, and saluted Elisabeth.

41 And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:

56 And Mary abode with her about three months, and returned to her own house.

57 Now Elisabeth's full time came that she should be delivered; and she brought forth a son.

59 And it came to pass, that on the eighth day they came to circumcise the child; and they called him Zacharias, after the name of his father.

60 And his mother answered and said, Not so; but he shall be called John.
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...

“Evil Atheist :-)”

Since: Mar 07

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#3124 Apr 30, 2014
Luke 2

4 And Joseph also went up from Galilee, out of the city of Nazareth, into Judaea, unto the city of David, which is called Bethlehem; (because he was of the house and lineage of David:)

5 To be taxed with Mary his espoused wife, being great with child.

6 And so it was, that, while they were there, the days were accomplished that she should be delivered.

7 And she brought forth her firstborn son, and wrapped him in swaddling clothes, and laid him in a manger; because there was no room for them in the inn.

8 And there were in the same country shepherds abiding in the field, keeping watch over their flock by night.

9 And, lo, the angel of the Lord came upon them, and the glory of the Lord shone round about them: and they were sore afraid.

10 And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people.

11 For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord.

12 And this shall be a sign unto you; Ye shall find the babe wrapped in swaddling clothes, lying in a manger.

13 And suddenly there was with the angel a multitude of the heavenly host praising God, and saying,

14 Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good will toward men.

15 And it came to pass, as the angels were gone away from them into heaven, the shepherds said one to another, Let us now go even unto Bethlehem, and see this thing which is come to pass, which the Lord hath made known unto us.

16 And they came with haste, and found Mary, and Joseph, and the babe lying in a manger.

17 And when they had seen it, they made known abroad the saying which was told them concerning this child.

18 And all they that heard it wondered at those things which were told them by the shepherds.

19 But Mary kept all these things, and pondered them in her heart.
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...

“Evil Atheist :-)”

Since: Mar 07

Location hidden

#3125 Apr 30, 2014
hazem selawi wrote:
<quoted text>
you are welcome, it is always a pleasure.
you were supposed to bring up what the bible says about Mary :P but never mind anyways I totally agree with you that you shouldn't believe that the Quran story is true, at least not yet, your concern regarding the Quran saying that Mary is actually the sister of Aoron or Harun is completely understandable, I think we previously agreed that when you read the Quran in English you are only reading the translation of interpretation of specific verses, lets see for instance how Muhsin khan translated verse 19:28
Mohsin Khan:"O sister (i.e. the like) of Harun (Aaron)! Your father was not a man who used to commit adultery, nor your mother was an unchaste woman." 19:28
so the Quran never claimed that Mary was sister of Aaron,the brother of Moses.
i think the Quran English translators specially Muhsin khan knew that there this verse would be confusing for non Arabs in particular,so he tried to give good understand to readers.
the Quran is just trying to tell us that Mary was as good as Harun sister, not to mention that the Quran clearly states that Mary was living in the time Zecharia.
You do realise that anything in brackets has been added by the translator don't you?

The Quran never gives a clear time line for the prophets so it's possible Muhammad didn't know just how many generations there were between them.

If the Quran only said Mary was a sister of Aaron I might accept that. It's that she's also called a daughter of Aaron's father Imran and her mother a wife of Imran. Her mother should also be a sister of Aaron.

Since: Oct 13

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#3126 May 4, 2014
Igor Trip wrote:
<quoted text>
You do realise that anything in brackets has been added by the translator don't you?
The Quran never gives a clear time line for the prophets so it's possible Muhammad didn't know just how many generations there were between them.
If the Quran only said Mary was a sister of Aaron I might accept that. It's that she's also called a daughter of Aaron's father Imran and her mother a wife of Imran. Her mother should also be a sister of Aaron.
there is an Authentic Hadith regarding this very same verse

Mughira b. Shu'ba reported: "When I came to Najran, they (the Christians of Najran) asked me: You read "O sister of Harun (Aaron)" (i. e. Mary) in the Qur'an, whereas Moses was born much before Jesus. When I came back to Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) I asked him about that, whereupon he said: The people of the old age used to give names after the names of Apostles and pious persons who had gone before them.(Sahih Muslim, The Book on General Behaviour )"

The meaning of the Hadith is that such similarity was due to ,people in old ages (and even some in modern times),like to give names to their new born babies after the names of Apostles and pious persons, who had gone before them.
... in other words ,the Mary's Im'ran is not Moses' Im'ran .... and that Mary"mother of Jesus" had a literal brother named Harun , but not the brother of the prophet Moses (peace be upon them all)...

it happens a lot even in our days because you cas easily find a muslim, whose name is Mohamed ,naming his children Fatima ,Zainab ,Ibrahim ... and his daughter Fatima having children naming them Hassan and Hussein etc...

“Evil Atheist :-)”

Since: Mar 07

Location hidden

#3127 May 4, 2014
hazem selawi wrote:
<quoted text>
there is an Authentic Hadith regarding this very same verse
Mughira b. Shu'ba reported: "When I came to Najran, they (the Christians of Najran) asked me: You read "O sister of Harun (Aaron)" (i. e. Mary) in the Qur'an, whereas Moses was born much before Jesus. When I came back to Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) I asked him about that, whereupon he said: The people of the old age used to give names after the names of Apostles and pious persons who had gone before them.(Sahih Muslim, The Book on General Behaviour )"
The meaning of the Hadith is that such similarity was due to ,people in old ages (and even some in modern times),like to give names to their new born babies after the names of Apostles and pious persons, who had gone before them.
... in other words ,the Mary's Im'ran is not Moses' Im'ran .... and that Mary"mother of Jesus" had a literal brother named Harun , but not the brother of the prophet Moses (peace be upon them all)...
it happens a lot even in our days because you cas easily find a muslim, whose name is Mohamed ,naming his children Fatima ,Zainab ,Ibrahim ... and his daughter Fatima having children naming them Hassan and Hussein etc...
Yes I've seen that hadith but it raises the question of why the Muslim narrator didn't know Mary wasn't Aaron's sister? Obviously no one had explained this too him.
This raises for me the question as to whether Muhammad didn't know this himself but then had to quickly make up an excuse.

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