Richard Dawkins - God is evil, pedoph...

Richard Dawkins - God is evil, pedophilesa not so bad

There are 3147 comments on the Examiner.com story from Sep 14, 2013, titled Richard Dawkins - God is evil, pedophilesa not so bad. In it, Examiner.com reports that:

"The God of the Qur'an is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully.

Join the discussion below, or Read more at Examiner.com.

ashkarslave4ALLA H

Yemen

#2386 Feb 24, 2014
hazem selawi wrote:
<quoted text>
Hello there brother , how things are going in Yemen ??
salaam bro

things getting worse in yemen

South wants to secede from the north i do not know what gonna happen?

but i have hope in ALLAH

Since: Apr 12

San Francisco, CA

#2387 Feb 24, 2014
hazem selawi wrote:
I think we can both agree that God is all seeing, all hearing and the most wise, you are missing the point here, it doesn't matter if the kid was killed or not, this incident refers to death, you are not asking the right questions...!! because according to your logic why do children die ?? why some babies don't even make it to life and die during childbirth ?? why is there Bone cancer ???
No, I am pretty clear about what I am questioning. You on the other hand is confused by two different issues. You are trying to diffuse this quranic problem by handing me a completely different problem of theodicy dilemma. The later does not involve god justifying using "future crime" as reason to kill an innocent boy.

The problem of evil/suffering exists in all religion, but Al Khidr's reason for killing an innocent boy exists only in Quran, please deal with that before trying another distraction.
hazem selawi wrote:
and the most important question why didn't your god find any other way to forgive the whole world sins rather than killing his own son who begged to stay alive and hesitated according to mark Gospel ???!!
another distraction that is... and I suppose you have heard many times that Jesus himself chose to take on human limitations and it was his choice to choose to die that way. It didn't bother me that he felt suffering, or he cried, or wasn't all knowing in his human form, but he would let the boy live instead of pluck his head out.
hazem selawi wrote:
actually this verse has nothing to do with the punishment of apostasy , the apostasy punishment is extracted from other Hadiths and Quranic verses,
Oh, be careful not to override what Quran says: "as for the boy, his parents were believers, and we feared lest he should oppress them by rebellion and DISBELIEF"

Ibn Kathir would disagree with you, he explained why the boy was killed:

"Their love for him might make them follow him in disbelief"

and it quotes Qatadah who said:

"His parents rejoiced when he was born and grieved for him when he was killed. If he had stayed alive, he would have been the cause of their doom. So let a man be content with the decree of Allah, for the decree of Allah for the believer, if he dislikes it, is better for him than if He were to decree something that he likes for him.'

And this was from knowledge of Allah who knows the future and he knew that this boy would drive his parents to disbelief. So, he was killed in order to protect the belief and faith of his parents. The practical message from this is that there are several things in our life which might seem disastrous to us, a lost job perhaps, an accident or money lost. However, while we do not know, it might be actually good for us in long time. Hence, what is good for a believer is to be content with the will of Allah and not be sad or impatient.

And Allah says in Qur'an:

and it may be that you dislike a thing which is good for you.[Al-Baqarah :216]
hazem selawi wrote:
Do I support killing apostates ??
of course I do, I accept everything in Islam, however the apostasy issue is widely misunderstood by non-Muslims and also some Muslims,..
Ok, you are now on record supporting killing of apostates, and acknowledge that it is Islamic. Your "however" part deals only with "technicallity", which really has no power over those who "islamic authority" who use this instance (oh yeah, one can be killed for "future" apostasy, not to mention actual apostasy), or Muhammad's infamous saying: "whoever that leaves his religion, kill him".

Since: Apr 12

San Francisco, CA

#2388 Feb 24, 2014
ashkarslave4ALLAH wrote:
So both of them set out walking along the sea-shore. A boat passed by them, and they asked the crew of the boat to take them on board. The crew recognized Al-Khidr, so they took them on board without fare. When they were on board the boat, a sparrow came and stood on the edge of the boat and dipped its beak once or twice into the sea. Al-Khidr said to Moses: "0 Moses! My knowledge and your knowledge have not decreased Allah's knowledge except as much as this sparrow has decreased the water of the sea with its beak." Then suddenly Al-Khidr took an adze and pulled up a plank, and Moses did not notice it till he had pulled up a plank with the adze. Moses said to him: "What have you done? They took us on board charging us nothing; yet you have intentionally made a hole in their boat so as to drown its passengers. Verily, you have done a dreadful thing." AlKhidr replied: "Did I not tell you that you would not be able to remain patient with me?" Moses replied: "Do not blame me for what I have forgotten, and do not be hard upon me for my fault." So the first excuse of Moses was that he had forgotten.
When they had left the sea, they passed by a boy playing with other boys. Al-Khidr took hold of the boy's head and plucked it with his hand like this.(Sufyan, the sub-narrator gestured with his fingertips as if he were plucking some fruit.) Moses said to him: "Have you killed an innocent person who has not killed any person? You have really done a horrible thing." Al-Khidr said: "Did I not tell you that you could not remain patient with me?" Moses said: "If I ask you about anything after this, don't accompany me. You have received an excuse from me."
Then both of them went on till they came to some people of a village, and they asked its inhabitants for food but they refused to entertain them as guests. Then they saw therein a wall which was just going to collapse and Al Khidr repaired it just by touching it with his hands.(Sufyan, the subnarrator, gestured with his hands, illustrating how Al-Khidr passed his hands over the wall upwards.) Moses said: "These are the people whom we have called on, but they neither gave us food, nor entertained us as guests, yet you have repaired their wall. If you had wished, you could have taken wages for it."
Al-Khidr said: "This is the parting between you and me, and I shall tell you the explanation of those things on which you could not remain patient."
The Prophet added: "We wish that Moses could have remained patient by virtue of which Allah might have told us more about their story." (Sufyan, the sub-narrator, said that the Prophet said: "May Allah bestow His Mercy on Moses! If he had remained patient, we would have been told further about their case.")'
Ashkar, dumping garbage doesn't help you dealing with the problem. The problem is this:

Allah killed an innocent boy he knew would do no harm (unless he couldn't predict he would have him killed before that could take place)

Since: Apr 12

San Francisco, CA

#2389 Feb 24, 2014
we have been discussing Al Khidr in Richard Dawkins thread for too long, I suggest switching discussion to this "original" thread here:

http://www.topix.com/forum/religion/islam/TKG...

“Evil Atheist :-)”

Since: Mar 07

Location hidden

#2390 Feb 25, 2014
hazem selawi wrote:
<quoted text>
at the early stages of Islam, Muslims used to gather in the mosque of Al Madina for the 5 prayers, and the mosque wasn't only for praying and worshiping but also a place to gather in and discuss political, economical ,social issues and even for training and to perform some sort of sports.
sometimes Muslims and companions of Mohammed in Al Madina used to hear the Athan (calling for prayer) at a different time of the prayers, so to them its a sign that there is something important and all Muslims should go to the mosque to see what is going on.
But are they being consulted or just told to do what others have decided?

I still don't see a structured system here.

“When you treat people as they ”

Since: Nov 10

treat you they get offended.

#2391 Feb 25, 2014
hazem selawi wrote:
<quoted text>
yes of course a lot of muslims Drink alcohol, commit murders, Rape, go to brothels and maybe more ...!! So what ???
I never claimed that Muslims are perfect or angels, and I made it clear from the beginning that I only clarify what Islam teaches not what Muslims do, I think we also agreed that there are no more proper Islamic countries.
that's interesting you know several of several women who have become wealthy by servicing Muslims ?!!! are you aware that we were talking about brothels ??!!!
<quoted text>
no Sharia law isn't the new communism, because communism state that people should be partners in everything, in Islam people are partners in specific things (water, pasture and oil)
and there would still be a big room for people to have their businesses.
how would Sharia provide such things to people ?? the answer is simple; by applying the Islamic economical system, for instance in Jordan there are 25 billions as Deposits in the banks…
<quoted text>
…
Ahh, thank you for admitting at long last that Muslims are all different too. Up to now you have never said such a thing. Perhaps chatting to me is educating you. You made it clear that you thought Islam was perfect and Muslims were perfect too. You have even implied that Muslims who do not follow your mindset are not Muslim.

Nope, you dictated that there were no more Islamic countries, I was being sarcastic as I made clear and I provided several links (including to Islamic sites) to show that there were Muslim countries, including your own. You also made it clear that you did not recognise them. What were you saying about twisting words?

Of course I am aware, do you have a problem with brothels? Actually I was talking about prostitutes, not brothels but I suppose the two are linked. I do know a lot of people from said prostitutes right up to business and military leaders and even one assassin (really). You could not wish to meet a nicer “family” man , but don’t worry he is currently serving life imprisonment with no possibility of parole.

Ahh right so sharia is socialist communism?

And who do you think owns those deposits, who do you think has earned and deposited those deposits? So the Islamic modal is to steal that hard earned wealth and give it to the people you consider righteous. Nope, I do not hold a finance degree, all my degrees are art based.

I care about freedom of choice and I care that freedom of choice under your terms is not freedom of choice but dictatorship.

You accused me of being a fan, so that is not a comment?

And my point is that it is all somewhat holistic, Example (note that I said example) The quran portrays women as worth half that of men. This is indoctrinated into Muslims from an early age. There maybe time machine modifiers in later writing but that makes no difference to the fact that the first thing on the subject that Muslims learn is that women are worth half that of men. I am saying that this indoctrination makes itself felt throughout Muslim society. I have seen this abhorrence manifesting in several guises. I look out of my office window at this very moment and I see three instances of this abhorrence. You will not make that all go away by restricting talking about it.

How can you possibly call restriction of conversation to be healthy and beneficial? Restricting conversation to the rules you lay down in your favour only benefit one person and guess what? It ain’t gonna happen

“When you treat people as they ”

Since: Nov 10

treat you they get offended.

#2392 Feb 25, 2014
hazem selawi wrote:
<quoted text>
continual spiritual preparation, Education and Islamic punishments will guarantee to take crime rates to the very minimum, besides you are talking like you guys solved every problem, as far as I know you have rapists, murders, child molesters, thieves, gangs, drugs addicts , alcoholics and the list goes on and on, if you say that sharia law wouldn't help then certainly light sentences for rapists wouldn't help either ...!!!
<quoted text>
where the hell do you get your statistics from ?!!! most rapes are carried out by brother, father, uncle and son ??!!!! I never heard of someone who raped his mother or sister maybe such rapes occur after taking drugs or drinking alcohol and in that case under sharia law Alcohol will be banned gradually until the whole country becomes free of alcohol and/or drugs, you are missing the big picture.
<quoted text>
even if my faith is personal to me that wouldn't give you the right to spread false ideas of Islam, you have to admit that you don't really know much about It and all you have is twisted conclusions based on what you see or hear about in the Media, nobody is willing in your neck of the woods to hear what the other part have to say in an open minded.
Theoretically you may be right but theory and practice in a world of individuals is not the same thing, there is no all encompassing panacea for all the wrongs of the world. You admitted in your last post that Muslims are individual too. Honey you have had 1600 years to fix it and guess what? It’s still broken. Theoretically, locking every one up in a single private cell for their entire life will also cure all crime.

Because your press seems to be censored is not my problem, there is considerable evidence for “known victim rape”

“.Data on sexually violent individuals show that most direct their acts at individuals whom they already know.” http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of_sexual...

“Approximately 2/3 of rapes were committed by someone known to the victim.”
https://www.rainn.org/get-information/statist...

“only 9% of rapes are committed by 'strangers'”
http://www.rapecrisis.org.uk/commonmyths2.php

I do not spread false ideas, I spread what I know and understand and have experience of. What I do is refute lies, such lies as your illusion that Islam treats women the same as men and that the quran is a scientific document. Not necessarily the media but I will not deny that it is one source of my information. I live just outside and work in a city that is more than 10% Muslim, I see examples daily of both moral and immoral Muslim behaviour.

Are you claiming that you are open minded? You who has spent several months denying that Muslims can be bad people? Honey, a more closed minded fundamentalist can only be found in the deepest babble belt of America.

“When you treat people as they ”

Since: Nov 10

treat you they get offended.

#2393 Feb 25, 2014
hazem selawi wrote:
<quoted text>
you still don't get it, the rule is clear you can lie if you were about to die, and even then you cannot lie by changing what Islam says, you can only lie by acting like you left Islam like what Happened with Al Yasser family, Mohammed's Companions at the early time of Islam, Ammar bin Yaser who is the son was tortured with his elderly parents (Sumayyah bint Khayyat and Yasser) by a group of infidels, the mother was killed by Abu Jahl and was declared to be the firs martyr in Islam, the father was tortured to death also and the infidels wanted to kill the son as well unless he said that he doesn't believe in Mohammed or in Allah anymore, so he did say I don't believe in Mohammed nor in Allah anymore in order to live and because of the big shock seeing his own parents tortured and killed.
<quoted text>
Lol, that isn't a real story its a very old joke.
And you still do not get it, if you can lie in defence of your faith then you can lie. End of story

Did I say it was real? Perhaps a language barred problem, I apologise. But yes, very old dating from the times of the troubles in NI. The fact that I heard it while lying in hospital recovering from an IRA bomb attack was considerably more poignant than the Islam/Hebrew aspect. But I thought it was relevant in the post.

“When you treat people as they ”

Since: Nov 10

treat you they get offended.

#2394 Feb 25, 2014
hazem selawi wrote:
<quoted text>
Hello there brother , how things are going in Yemen ??
You are perhaps best ignoring him, It appears he is just a troll smeari9ng his troll sh|t over the thread.
Mahmood

Peterborough, Canada

#2395 Feb 25, 2014
hazem selawi wrote:
<quoted text>
The Koran gives no advise on good governance or how to run a sound economy ??!!!!
are you sure you read the Quran or something else ??!!
Democracy isn't necessarily found in Arabic or any other language by the Exact words ....!!! because obviously there are different languages, you remind me of a christian scholar who says Jesus cannot be a Muslim because Muslim or Islam as words weren't mentioned in either the old or the new testament, that ignorant scholar forgot that Islam is an Arabic word and if we wanted to translate it to English its gonna take us 5 words; submission, surrender , obedience, sincerity and peace.
my point is you absolutely cannot find the word democracy in Quran or Sunnah because its an English term, but you certainly can find the essence and the meanings of Democracy in Islam, So consulting and participating in political decisions in Islam refer to Democracy.
<quoted text>
what verse 10:36 has to do with anything we are discussing ??!!
you are taking verses out of its original context ...!!!
Koran gives no advise on running of a sound economy, on electing a leader, or how to avoid terminal illness and that is why I consider it a worthless piece of literature. The word "democracy" wasn't introduced in any of the Islamic languages until the tail end of the 19th century - that is why democracy and Islam are incompatible. The essence of the meaning of democracy may be found in man made Islam, but not in Mohammad's Islam.

Since: Apr 12

San Francisco, CA

#2396 Feb 25, 2014
Mahmood wrote:
The essence of the meaning of democracy may be found in man made Islam, but not in Mohammad's Islam.
you are too harsh on Muhammad... I'd grant his Islam a man-made status.
Mahmood

Peterborough, Canada

#2397 Feb 25, 2014
ChristineM wrote:
<quoted text>
And you still do not get it, if you can lie in defence of your faith then you can lie. End of story
Did I say it was real? Perhaps a language barred problem, I apologise. But yes, very old dating from the times of the troubles in NI. The fact that I heard it while lying in hospital recovering from an IRA bomb attack was considerably more poignant than the Islam/Hebrew aspect. But I thought it was relevant in the post.
What Hazem is trying to do is give you some anecdotes on Islamic history. The problem with that history is that it was written 150-200 years after the alleged incidents took place & like the hadiths, it cannot be trusted.

Since: Oct 13

Location hidden

#2398 Feb 25, 2014
Igor Trip wrote:
<quoted text>
But are they being consulted or just told to do what others have decided?
I still don't see a structured system here.
that is a very good question, but in order to understand the psychology of Muslims you should at first know that the followers of Mohammed wouldn't mind to do whatever Mohammed said even if he asked them to jump off a cliff , but he still consulted them, so I think you should put what was happening during Mohammed's life aside because we as Muslims take his sayings, actions, approvals and sometimes his silence as the proper method of our lives.

So should there be Democracy in Islam ?? yes because of the numerous teachings, sayings and actions of Mohammed.

But what exactly do you mean by a structured system ??
I don't think it was possible to consult every man and woman, but who wants to say anything can just stand up and say whatever he wants.

Since: Oct 13

Location hidden

#2399 Feb 25, 2014
Mahmood wrote:
<quoted text>
Koran gives no advise on running of a sound economy, on electing a leader, or how to avoid terminal illness and that is why I consider it a worthless piece of literature. The word "democracy" wasn't introduced in any of the Islamic languages until the tail end of the 19th century - that is why democracy and Islam are incompatible. The essence of the meaning of democracy may be found in man made Islam, but not in Mohammad's Islam.
I don't know where do you guys get your information from ??!!
why don't we let the non-muslims talk about Mohammed ??!!
According to Michael H. Hart who wrote (the 100: Ranking of the Most Influential Persons in History) Mohammed is the most influential, The first person ever.

Mohammed (PBUH) cannot be compared to anybody, he is the best person ever walked on Earth whether you like it or not.

Since: Oct 13

Location hidden

#2400 Feb 25, 2014
ChristineM wrote:
<quoted text>
And you still do not get it, if you can lie in defence of your faith then you can lie. End of story
Did I say it was real? Perhaps a language barred problem, I apologise. But yes, very old dating from the times of the troubles in NI. The fact that I heard it while lying in hospital recovering from an IRA bomb attack was considerably more poignant than the Islam/Hebrew aspect. But I thought it was relevant in the post.


What can I say ..!! there is a very old Arabic saying which can generally be translated to " I am like someone who is blowing in a bag but that bag has a big hole in it".

So no matter how hard I try to explain to you that in Islam you cannot lie for your faith by changing Authentic rules and giving false information, you would still say you can lie for your faith.

Whats your story ???? it seems like you've been through a lot, Christians extremists threatened you and your family , and you also were a victim of a bomb Attack.

is that why you hate religions that bad ??

Since: Oct 13

Location hidden

#2401 Feb 25, 2014
ChristineM wrote:
<quoted text>
Ahh, thank you for admitting at long last that Muslims are all different too. Up to now you have never said such a thing. Perhaps chatting to me is educating you. You made it clear that you thought Islam was perfect and Muslims were perfect too. You have even implied that Muslims who do not follow your mindset are not Muslim.
I think you are confusing me with someone else, because I certainly still say that Islam is perfect, you are the one who linked Muslims to Islam and you are the one who kept saying Muslims did this and that, from day one I am telling you to find out what Islam teaches not what Muslims do.
ChristineM wrote:
<quoted text>
Nope, you dictated that there were no more Islamic countries, I was being sarcastic as I made clear and I provided several links (including to Islamic sites) to show that there were Muslim countries, including your own. You also made it clear that you did not recognise them. What were you saying about twisting words?
ooh so you were being sarcastic when you said there are no more Islamic countries, I am a kind of person who doesn't really tell if someone is being sarcastic or not.

I thought you could finally see the huge gap between what Islam teaches and what falsely claimed Islamic countries are doing.
ChristineM wrote:
<quoted text>
Of course I am aware, do you have a problem with brothels? Actually I was talking about prostitutes, not brothels but I suppose the two are linked. I do know a lot of people from said prostitutes right up to business and military leaders and even one assassin (really). You could not wish to meet a nicer “family” man , but don’t worry he is currently serving life imprisonment with no possibility of parole.
Yes of course I have a problem with both brothels and prostitutes, I actually Can never understand the unjust world we are living in today, trust me humanity is vanishing, and our morals are going down to the very minimum levels.

its not like that I have a problem with prostitutes, But I feel sorry for them because they don't have any other choice but to sell their bodies in order to survive in such an evil world.

Can you imagine such a horrible Job, where you have to satisfy some disgusting strange men and also being supervised by a manager who would most likely be some scumbag pimp.

I think you should talk to those friends of yours and help them to get our from the hell they are living in.
ChristineM wrote:
<quoted text>
Ahh right so sharia is socialist communism?
And who do you think owns those deposits, who do you think has earned and deposited those deposits? So the Islamic modal is to steal that hard earned wealth and give it to the people you consider righteous. Nope, I do not hold a finance degree, all my degrees are art based.
under Sharia law you only pay Zakkah or Jizzya instead of taxes.

ChristineM wrote:
<quoted text>
And my point is that it is all somewhat holistic, Example (note that I said example) The quran portrays women as worth half that of men. This is indoctrinated into Muslims from an early age. There maybe time machine modifiers in later writing but that makes no difference to the fact that the first thing on the subject that Muslims learn is that women are worth half that of men. I am saying that this indoctrination makes itself felt throughout Muslim society.
Islam certainly doesn't state nor teach that women are less than men, the thing is that you don't see the whole story, men and women are equal in front of Allah.

But Islam clearly says that there are differences between men and women, Even you cannot deny that Men and women aren't the same, there are physical, psychological and other differences, however that certainly doesn't make any one of them better than the other.

Since: Oct 13

Location hidden

#2402 Feb 25, 2014
ashkarslave4ALLAH wrote:
<quoted text>salaam bro
things getting worse in yemen
South wants to secede from the north i do not know what gonna happen?
but i have hope in ALLAH
Wa Alaikom Al Salam, Yeah I heard and I think its Regrettable.
the Islamic Ummah is suffering more than ever, I don't Just blame the dictators we are being ruled by but I also Blame the Muslims themselves for leaving the proper method Of Mohammed (PBUH) and his companions, we are just copying the unbelievers and following them like blinded sheeps.

I Have a feeling that Allah will replace us by another people whom will actually follow Islam better than us.

Since: Oct 13

Location hidden

#2403 Feb 25, 2014
Thinking wrote:
No. Aren't you too backward for this kind of century?
<quoted text>
I was Just kidding man, I know you are not that old :P
Mahmood

Brampton, Canada

#2404 Feb 25, 2014
hazem selawi wrote:
<quoted text>
it is impossible to find a term like "Democracy" In Quran or Sunnah, because apparently it is an English word, however the concept of Democracy can be found in both Quran and Mohammed actions and sayings, for instance you'll find the word " Shura" mentioned in Quran and Shura can be translated into "consultation", The Quran and Muhammad encourage Muslims to decide their affairs in consultation with those who will be affected by that decision.
Sunni Muslims and scholars believe that Islam requires all decisions made for the Muslim societies to be made by Shura of the Muslim community and believe this to be the basics for implementing Democracy.
It was common among Muhammad's companions to ask him if a certain advice was from God or from him. If it was from Muhammad, they felt free to give their opinion and Mohammed (PBUH) changed his decisions so many times, and such consultation happened all the time and specially in critical situations, it is a clear message for the Muslims to consult each other, every muslim could give his own opinion, even slaves had that right, for instance Mohammed consulted a slave (Salman al Faresi) in the battle of al Ahzab and Salman's opinion was a very important factor for the Muslims to win that battle, so political involvement and consultation can be seen clearly in Mohammed's biography.
when the prophet died all the Muslims gathered in Al Saqifa, to decide who is going to be the next caliph and finally they chose Abu Bakr, the early caliphates and Muslims applied this way (mubaya'a) until Ali bin Abi Taleb was killed Although he was elected to become the Caliph after Uthman but the caliphate was moved to Mou'ya and he started a new Era ( al Omawyoun).
thus the first four caliphs, or rulers of Islam, whom we call the Four Rightly-guided Caliphs, were chosen by Shura.
3 of the 4 caliphs were butchered. Only old Abu Bakr died of natural causes. And I can tell you what happened in Saqifa, it was horse trading that eventually led to mayhem. Fist were flying and one or two were killed. Why this happened was because allah failed to advise Mohammad to appoint a leader after he was gone. Shias claim that he appointed Ali which again is controversial. None of the four rightly guided caliphs were elected in fair in free elections and were appointed under dubious circumstances. The muslim community fragmented as soon your prophet took his last breath.
Mahmood

Brampton, Canada

#2405 Feb 25, 2014
hazem selawi wrote:
<quoted text>
I don't know where do you guys get your information from ??!!
why don't we let the non-muslims talk about Mohammed ??!!
According to Michael H. Hart who wrote (the 100: Ranking of the Most Influential Persons in History) Mohammed is the most influential, The first person ever.
Mohammed (PBUH) cannot be compared to anybody, he is the best person ever walked on Earth whether you like it or not.
Without a doubt, Mohammad was one of the greatest men ever, but this is not the topic of our discussion. I do not question his greatness.

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