Richard Dawkins - God is evil, pedophilesa not so bad

Sep 14, 2013 Read more: Examiner.com 3,049

"The God of the Qur'an is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully.

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“I started out with nothing”

Since: Nov 10

and still got most of it left

#2359 Feb 24, 2014
hazem selawi wrote:
<quoted text>
no they cannot visit a brothel because that is considered fornication, And Allah is everywhere, its not just about who will get caught, and if some people just decided to have sex they can do it in their house away from other people, under sharia law you still cannot
break into other people houses, Islam is not only about getting caught and being stoned to death, can you imagine that only 60 cases of stoning to death occurred under sharia law for the past 1300 years, and in many cases people decided to confess because apparently no one would have an inner course in front of 4 witnesses.
under proper sharia law the government should provide shelter, Oil and water for all people free of charge, not to mention the spiritual preparing for individuals over time to do the right thing and avoid the wrong.
<quoted text>
Abortion is a complex issue and so many scholars through history talked about it and brought evidences from Quran and Sunnah.
mainly Abortion can be in two states. Each one has a special ruling.
The first state: having an abortion after the soul is breathed into the fetus. Abortion in such a case, without a bit of difference among scholars of Islam, is completely Haram except in the following two situations:
1) If the pregnancy, according to reliable doctors of medicine, will cause certain harm to the mother.



actually I didn't fail to bring you scientific evidences that Quran is the true word of the creator, I just stopped because you and others kept throwing accusations and every time I try to say anything you (with others) would distract me by women issues, stoning to death and other many misconceptions , so we need a strong base to build on, because Islam has a very wide scope, and I cannot deal with hundreds of issues in one response, Therefor I think we should put some guidelines tou our discussion and try to deal with each issue solely.
It really does not matter what it is considered in narrow minded minds, It happens. I know several of several women who have become wealthy by servicing Muslim “travellers”, business men etc.

Ahh so you feel that sharia law should be the new communism? Please advise how the government is going to pay for these free gifts? And the days when governments were involved in indoctrination has long gone in the western world, Although the Arab Spring seems to have been only partially successful one major thing that has come from it was that Muslim dictatorship is not universally accepted in predominantly Muslim based countries, including your own.

Abortion, You see this is yet another thing that you don’t understand, I am not interested in sharia terms and conditions for the validity or otherwise of abortion. I am completely satisfied with the abortion laws of the country I reside, for the most part they work as required and as best suites the voting majority. I do not really care what a bunch of scholars who are ignorant of the facts and are not qualified to make any such decision but want to chat like good all knowing deities and impose their “wisdom” based on 1600 year mythology.

So why should citing an example make me a startrek fan? As it happens when I did watch StarTrek when it was on TV I enjoyed it in the same way that I enjoyed QI and the Simpson’s. That does not make me a fan to please keep your specious guesses to yourself. And I see you have not bothered commenting on the similarity of Islam and the Borg.

Facts are not accusations and lack of facts means that what you have is supposition and faith. So you are easily side-tracked by women? I guess it must be an age thing. Sorry buddy, if you are unwilling to answer the questions of subject you bring up imposing restrictions on what I am allowed to speak about then you are on a looser right from the start and this conversation may juts as well end right now.

This thread/forum is, my dear, a very good example of democracy in

“I started out with nothing”

Since: Nov 10

and still got most of it left

#2360 Feb 24, 2014
hazem selawi wrote:
<quoted text>
you don't take in consideration anything when you give examples, for instance a rape usually takes a place in public places and its highly possible that the raped woman would call for help and people would come, another rape may occur in a closed place for instance, well Islam closed the door for such a probability because its prohibited for a man to be with a strange woman alone in a closed place, another rape may occur when the woman travels alone for a long distance, Islam also closed the door for such a rape to occur because its also prohibited for the woman to travel to another country alone, she should take with her a mahram (brother, father, husband, uncle, son ..etc) and thus would be protected from any attack.
the worst possible case is that if a man breaks into someone's house and find a lonely woman and rape her, and in that specific case a usual investigation would be enough to catch the pervert as I mentioned before we may also use DNA, fingerprints and confessions.
not to mention the Islamic spiritual preparation in the mosques, Schools and other media channels, I am of course dealing with a theoretical situation where all other factors of Sharia law is taken in place.
<quoted text>
Thank you, that is exactly what I was trying to say from the very first day.
<quoted text>
you say that the radicalised Muslim Terrorist (B) may be devoted to Islam, Well why don't we let Islam itself Judge , I think after weeks of discussion you and I can agree that the reliable sources of rules in Islam depend on Quran and Sunnah and in some cases the actions of the earliest companions of Mohammed, and I also told you that all Muslims agree on more than 95%(the opinion of All scholars or what big scholars through history agreed on )of Islam and there is some room what is called "the opinion of the majority of scholars (not agreed on)" and another room for some disagreements and difference in opinions in little issues.
Say what? Public places you say, go figure? Do you really think that the mind of a rapist is going to advertise the fact of his crimes by effectively saying “Hey look everyone, look what I am doing to this screaming woman?”

There you go again,“prohibited” do you actually think that makes any difference? The sick pervert is already breaking the law of the land, the rules of humanity, the mores of decency and morality and in some countries human rights. Do you really think a god book of mythology is going to make any difference?

And so restricting your female citizens movements is going to stop a determined rapist? Actually most rapes are carried out by brother, father, husband, uncle, son, friend.etc so how does restricting a females rights make this go away?

Actually I was being sarcastic but it seems to have been lost on you. I apologise.

Judge what? Once the radicalised Muslim B has detonated his bomb all that is left is a few scraps of ripped flesh, a lot of damage and ruined lives. Not much to judge about the guy with a few pounds of semtex strapped to his chest and a god book in his hand.

Nope we can agree that you have your faith that is personal to you, not to anyone else.

Honey, those cases happened, there can be no argument and no excuse. Juts because it’s not the way that you think Islam works makes no difference to the fact that it does not work the way you want.

No your words were not clear, there were excuse based on your faith. If you can lie about your belief if threatened then in my view you can lie about anything. You don’t seem to realise (or and indoctrinated against) that all lies are lies whether you think one lie is better than another or not

“I started out with nothing”

Since: Nov 10

and still got most of it left

#2361 Feb 24, 2014
The last paragraph of post #2359 was incomplete and should have read

This thread/forum is, my dear, a very good example of democracy in action. Those who have tasted freedom do not tolerate dictatorship.

“I started out with nothing”

Since: Nov 10

and still got most of it left

#2362 Feb 24, 2014
hazem selawi wrote:
<quoted text>
I cannot lie for my faith , because as I told you taqiyya or lying for one's faith can only happen when I fear my life, Like if you gave me 2 choices; 1) whether you leave Islam and say I don't believe in god or in the prophet 2) or I will kill you.
So you totally miss understood Taqiyya, lets try the first choice you are putting a gun to my head and you will kill me unless I say words that declare my apostasy from Islam, in that case Islam gives me the permission to act like I left Islam in front of you in order to live and apparently I would still be a Muslim in my heart, But no one lies about Islam by giving false ideas and fabricate Rules intentionally ...!!!
to be fair with you I heard that in some Shias sects it is allowed to lie all the time, like to be a hypocrite for the sake of Muslims or to get what you want, I am not really sure, a friend of mine lived in Iraq with his family their entire life and their neighbors were shias (don't know what sect) and they were like real friends, visiting each others and exchange gifts ...etc, by the time America invaded Iraq and Sadam's regime broke down those Shiat neighbors kidnapped my friend's father and his uncle as hostages, they released them for I think a 100,000 USD, it turned out that those neighbors were hypocrites from the beginning, So shiat concept of Taqiyya is to fake something to get something but they still wouldn't lie about Islamic rules and certainly wouldn't give you false interpretations as far as I know.
So you cannot lie for your faith unless threatened?

Therefore it is still a lie.

Note that most true and provable facts are threats against your faith

I heard a story long ago.

A guy walking through the dark streets of Belfast close to the boundary between catholic and protestant areas.

Suddenly a hand clasps him under the chin and he feels the shock of a cold steel blade pressed against his throat.

Close to his ear a muffled voice asks,“what is you religion?”

The victim thought what should I say? If I say catholic and the knife wielder turns out to be protestant then I am dead and if I say that I am protestant and he is catholic then I am dead.

Thinking fast “Insha'Allah” the man lies “I am Muslim”

And the man says “Yahweh smiles on me, I am the luckiest Jew in the world”

“I started out with nothing”

Since: Nov 10

and still got most of it left

#2363 Feb 24, 2014
hazem selawi wrote:
<quoted text>
aren't you a bit old for this kind of T-shirts ??
??? T-shirts may be worn at any age.

Near my place in France, one of the oldest guys in the village, well into his 80s, wears Motorhead and AC/DC tour T-shirts

Just about everyone one I know relaxes in a t-shirt,

My most comfortable item of clothing, I wear it to sleep when my hub is away and I am cold and alone, is a maroon extra large very baggy t-shirt, with the faded phrase “Every time you masturbate Allah kills a kitten”
Thinking

London, UK

#2364 Feb 24, 2014
No. Aren't you too backward for this kind of century?
hazem selawi wrote:
<quoted text>
aren't you a bit old for this kind of T-shirts ??
Thinking

London, UK

#2365 Feb 24, 2014
islamic fashion tips? haram salami is a muppet.
ChristineM wrote:
<quoted text>
??? T-shirts may be worn at any age.
Near my place in France, one of the oldest guys in the village, well into his 80s, wears Motorhead and AC/DC tour T-shirts
Just about everyone one I know relaxes in a t-shirt,
My most comfortable item of clothing, I wear it to sleep when my hub is away and I am cold and alone, is a maroon extra large very baggy t-shirt, with the faded phrase “Every time you masturbate Allah kills a kitten”

“I started out with nothing”

Since: Nov 10

and still got most of it left

#2366 Feb 24, 2014

Since: Oct 13

Location hidden

#2367 Feb 24, 2014
Igor Trip wrote:
<quoted text>
I'm not aware of any elected council formed by Muhammad to run his growing empire.
Can you give us examples from early Islam where the people actually had a say rather than just being ruled over.
it is impossible to find a term like "Democracy" In Quran or Sunnah, because apparently it is an English word, however the concept of Democracy can be found in both Quran and Mohammed actions and sayings, for instance you'll find the word " Shura" mentioned in Quran and Shura can be translated into "consultation", The Quran and Muhammad encourage Muslims to decide their affairs in consultation with those who will be affected by that decision.

Sunni Muslims and scholars believe that Islam requires all decisions made for the Muslim societies to be made by Shura of the Muslim community and believe this to be the basics for implementing Democracy.

It was common among Muhammad's companions to ask him if a certain advice was from God or from him. If it was from Muhammad, they felt free to give their opinion and Mohammed (PBUH) changed his decisions so many times, and such consultation happened all the time and specially in critical situations, it is a clear message for the Muslims to consult each other, every muslim could give his own opinion, even slaves had that right, for instance Mohammed consulted a slave (Salman al Faresi) in the battle of al Ahzab and Salman's opinion was a very important factor for the Muslims to win that battle, so political involvement and consultation can be seen clearly in Mohammed's biography.

when the prophet died all the Muslims gathered in Al Saqifa, to decide who is going to be the next caliph and finally they chose Abu Bakr, the early caliphates and Muslims applied this way (mubaya'a) until Ali bin Abi Taleb was killed Although he was elected to become the Caliph after Uthman but the caliphate was moved to Mou'ya and he started a new Era ( al Omawyoun).

thus the first four caliphs, or rulers of Islam, whom we call the Four Rightly-guided Caliphs, were chosen by Shura.

Since: Oct 13

Location hidden

#2368 Feb 24, 2014
Thinking wrote:
No. Aren't you too backward for this kind of century?
<quoted text>
maybe I am but you are the one who is wearing teenagers' clothes, what kind of music do you listen to ??? let me guess Justein beiber and miley cyrus ???

Since: Oct 13

Location hidden

#2369 Feb 24, 2014
ChristineM wrote:
<quoted text>
It really does not matter what it is considered in narrow minded minds, It happens. I know several of several women who have become wealthy by servicing Muslim “travellers”, business men etc.
yes of course a lot of muslims Drink alcohol, commit murders, Rape, go to brothels and maybe more ...!! So what ???

I never claimed that Muslims are perfect or angels, and I made it clear from the beginning that I only clarify what Islam teaches not what Muslims do, I think we also agreed that there are no more proper Islamic countries.

that's interesting you know several of several women who have become wealthy by servicing Muslims ?!!! are you aware that we were talking about brothels ??!!!
ChristineM wrote:
<quoted text>
Ahh so you feel that sharia law should be the new communism? Please advise how the government is going to pay for these free gifts? And the days when governments were involved in indoctrination has long gone in the western world, Although the Arab Spring seems to have your own.
no Sharia law isn't the new communism, because communism state that people should be partners in everything, in Islam people are partners in specific things (water, pasture and oil)
and there would still be a big room for people to have their businesses.

how would Sharia provide such things to people ?? the answer is simple; by applying the Islamic economical system, for instance in Jordan there are 25 billions as Deposits in the banks for the past 10 years and increasing, in Islam if you froze your money for a whole year you should pay 2.5%(Zakkah) for the poor and orphans, if you didnt want to pay Zakkah or Jizzya (for non muslims) you have to invest your money and investing money will feed the economy and would reduce unemployment, I don't know much you tell me , you are the one who holds a finance degree, you should take a look at the Islamic economical system and tell us what you think.
ChristineM wrote:
<quoted text>
Abortion, You see this is yet another thing that you don’t understand, I am not interested in sharia terms and conditions for the validity or otherwise of abortion. I am completely satisfied with the abortion laws of the country I reside, for the most part they work as required and as best suites the voting majority. I do not really care what a bunch of scholars who are ignorant of the facts and are not qualified to make any such decision but want to chat like good all knowing deities and impose their “wisdom” based on 1600 year mythology.
Fair enough, but if you are not interested you shouldn't claim that Muslims don't care what doctors say and Just do whatever they want.
ChristineM wrote:
<quoted text>
That does not make me a fan to please keep your specious guesses to yourself. And I see you have not bothered commenting on the similarity of Islam and the Borg.
I didn't comment on that because I didn't watch the whole movie, only some clips and I really don't get it.
ChristineM wrote:
<quoted text>
Facts are not accusations and lack of facts means that what you have is supposition and faith. So you are easily side-tracked by women? I guess it must be an age thing. Sorry buddy, if you are unwilling to answer the questions of subject you bring up imposing restrictions on what I am allowed to speak about
I never meant to impose any restrictions of what you are allowed to speak about, my point was is that we should focus on a specific subject and other questions and subjects should be ignored or delayed until its turn comes, because obviously we cannot talk about science in the Quran and at the same time discuss punishments, women rights, democracy and hundreds of misconceptions, everybody will get confused and we will never be able to have a healthy and a beneficial conversation.

Since: Apr 12

Concord, CA

#2370 Feb 24, 2014
ashkarslave4ALLAH wrote:
"As for the boy, his parents were believers and we feared that he would darken their days with excessive insolence and unbelief." (Surat al-Kahf, 80)
The verse reveals that the boy’s parents were believers. In other words, in those days true religion existed. When Khidr (as) took the child’s life, it was Allah’s will, for He had written the child’s time and place of death in his destiny. Allah reminds people of this reality, as follows: "He created you from clay and then decreed a fixed term, and another fixed term is specified with Him…" (Surat al-An`am, 2). As the Qur’an also says, angels take the life of every human being:
If only you could see when the angels take back those who were unbelievers at their death, beating their faces and their backs [saying]: "Taste the punishment of the Burning!" (Surat al-Anfal, 50)
However, the angles are just a means, for in reality only Allah takes lives.
Allah willed for Khidr (as) to take this child’s life, but He could have done it through somebody else. The boy could have been killed in an accident, by a heart attack, or by falling and sustaining a deadly head injury. As Allah makes clear: "… When their specified time arrives, they cannot delay it for a single hour, nor can they bring it forward" (Surat an-Nahl, 61). In this case, Allah determined that the angels would be the invisible agents and that Khidr (as) would be the visible agent of this death, whereby Khidr (as) appeared to be taking the child’s life. In reality, Khidr (as) acts by the revelation he receives from Allah, and certainly does not act against His orders. Also, he cannot act by his own will unless Allah wills so. Allah chose him to be the means for this task.
Khidr (as) kills a child, about whom he has certain knowledge that his destiny is to become an unbeliever. He means to prevent the child from acting cruel towards his family and environment and drowning in a sea of sin, and thus takes preventive action.
We wanted their Lord to give them, in exchange, a purer son than him, one more compassionate.(Surat al-Kahf, 81)
hz hizir1Many people find it hard to see the reason and goodness behind a family member’s death, and death in general. However, as with everything else, there is much wisdom and goodness in this. One of these is stated to be "… giving them in exchange a purer son than him, one more compassionate."
hazem selawi wrote:
Well said man, Al Khader and Moses (PBUH) story is one of my favorite stories in the Quran, it holds so many lessons.
Hazem, give me a break! We have enough trouble understanding why Islam requires apostates to be killed, now you are saying killing an innocent boy for his future apostasy one of your "favorite stories in the Quran" and "holds so many lessons"? Lessons to do what? To kill another child? Or perhaps it would be better for you to classify the passage as Quranic verses that are "not humanly understandable" as Allah mentioned in Surah 3:7?

Since: Oct 13

Location hidden

#2371 Feb 24, 2014
ChristineM wrote:
<quoted text>
Say what? Public places you say, go figure? Do you really think that the mind of a rapist is going to advertise the fact of his crimes by effectively saying “Hey look everyone, look what I am doing to this screaming woman?”
There you go again,“prohibited” do you actually think that makes any difference? The sick pervert is already breaking the law of the land, the rules of humanity, the mores of decency and morality and in some countries human rights. Do you really think a god book of mythology is going to make any difference?
continual spiritual preparation, Education and Islamic punishments will guarantee to take crime rates to the very minimum, besides you are talking like you guys solved every problem, as far as I know you have rapists, murders, child molesters, thieves, gangs, drugs addicts , alcoholics and the list goes on and on, if you say that sharia law wouldn't help then certainly light sentences for rapists wouldn't help either ...!!!
ChristineM wrote:
<quoted text>
And so restricting your female citizens movements is going to stop a determined rapist? Actually most rapes are carried out by brother, father, husband, uncle, son, friend.etc so how does restricting a females rights make this go away?
where the hell do you get your statistics from ?!!! most rapes are carried out by brother, father, uncle and son ??!!!! I never heard of someone who raped his mother or sister maybe such rapes occur after taking drugs or drinking alcohol and in that case under sharia law Alcohol will be banned gradually until the whole country becomes free of alcohol and/or drugs, you are missing the big picture.
ChristineM wrote:
<quoted text>
Nope we can agree that you have your faith that is personal to you, not to anyone else.
Honey, those cases happened, there can be no argument and no excuse. Juts because it’s not the way that you think Islam works makes no difference to the fact that it does not work the way you want.
even if my faith is personal to me that wouldn't give you the right to spread false ideas of Islam, you have to admit that you don't really know much about It and all you have is twisted conclusions based on what you see or hear about in the Media, nobody is willing in your neck of the woods to hear what the other part have to say in an open minded.

Since: Oct 13

Location hidden

#2372 Feb 24, 2014
Rusty Tin Can wrote:
<quoted text>
<quoted text>
Hazem, give me a break! We have enough trouble understanding why Islam requires apostates to be killed, now you are saying killing an innocent boy for his future apostasy one of your "favorite stories in the Quran" and "holds so many lessons"? Lessons to do what? To kill another child? Or perhaps it would be better for you to classify the passage as Quranic verses that are "not humanly understandable" as Allah mentioned in Surah 3:7?
you should read the whole story, I think its telling us that God works things out in a mysterious way, so what appear to be bad its sometimes good, for instance when al Khader and Moses got on a ship al khader tore it open and Moses said Have you torn it open to drown its people? You have certainly done a grave thing."
[Al-Khidh r] said, "Did I not say that with me you would never be able to have patience?"

so you have to imagine that you are Moses (PBUH) and going on a trip with someone whom God had given mercy and had taught him from a [certain] knowledge, thus al Khadir isn't an ordinary man and we cannot do whatever he did.

Moses Also asked the same questions and felt that what Al khader is doing is wrong until he finally told him why he did all of what appeared to be bad, and turned out that all of the actions he did were for the benefit of those people.

read the whole story starting from 18:61 and pay attention to the Dialog between Moses and Al Khader.
http://quran.com/18

I think that story holds so many lessons like if you faced any kind of problems in your life, you should trust god and thank him for the good and the bad, because he is all knowing and certainly prepared a good plan for you.

Since: Oct 13

Location hidden

#2373 Feb 24, 2014
ChristineM wrote:
<quoted text>
So you cannot lie for your faith unless threatened?
Therefore it is still a lie.
Note that most true and provable facts are threats against your faith
you still don't get it, the rule is clear you can lie if you were about to die, and even then you cannot lie by changing what Islam says, you can only lie by acting like you left Islam like what Happened with Al Yasser family, Mohammed's Companions at the early time of Islam, Ammar bin Yaser who is the son was tortured with his elderly parents (Sumayyah bint Khayyat and Yasser) by a group of infidels, the mother was killed by Abu Jahl and was declared to be the firs martyr in Islam, the father was tortured to death also and the infidels wanted to kill the son as well unless he said that he doesn't believe in Mohammed or in Allah anymore, so he did say I don't believe in Mohammed nor in Allah anymore in order to live and because of the big shock seeing his own parents tortured and killed.
ChristineM wrote:
<quoted text>
I heard a story long ago.
A guy walking through the dark streets of Belfast close to the boundary between catholic and protestant areas.
Suddenly a hand clasps him under the chin and he feels the shock of a cold steel blade pressed against his throat.
Close to his ear a muffled voice asks,“what is you religion?”
The victim thought what should I say? If I say catholic and the knife wielder turns out to be protestant then I am dead and if I say that I am protestant and he is catholic then I am dead.
Thinking fast “Insha'Allah” the man lies “I am Muslim”
And the man says “Yahweh smiles on me, I am the luckiest Jew in the world”
Lol, that isn't a real story its a very old joke.

Since: Apr 12

Concord, CA

#2374 Feb 24, 2014
hazem selawi wrote:
you should read the whole story, I think its telling us that God works things out in a mysterious way, so what appear to be bad its sometimes good, for instance when al Khader and Moses got on a ship al khader tore it open and Moses said Have you torn it open to drown its people? You have certainly done a grave thing."
[Al-Khidh r] said, "Did I not say that with me you would never be able to have patience?"
so you have to imagine that you are Moses (PBUH) and going on a trip with someone whom God had given mercy and had taught him from a [certain] knowledge, thus al Khadir isn't an ordinary man and we cannot do whatever he did.
Moses Also asked the same questions and felt that what Al khader is doing is wrong until he finally told him why he did all of what appeared to be bad, and turned out that all of the actions he did were for the benefit of those people.
read the whole story starting from 18:61 and pay attention to the Dialog between Moses and Al Khader.
http://quran.com/18
I think that story holds so many lessons like if you faced any kind of problems in your life, you should trust god and thank him for the good and the bad, because he is all knowing and certainly prepared a good plan for you.
The only lesson here is Allah was at fault.

Let me ask you this:

If Allah has the power to predict the boy's future, does he not have the power to correct it rather than killing him before reach the point of no return?

If Allah's "prediction" makes any sense in this case, did his prediction take into account his "interference" to make his future a "non-existence" event?

Was that Allah's fault to give him birth to begin with, surely this story reveals the fatalistic nature of Islam, and that neither Allah nor the boy himself could prevent the boy from "disbelieving", or why would he had to be killed?

The only way that you can make someone accountable is when he actually committed the crime on his/her freewill.

(and don't you think Allah was a little "vague" in revealing this verse? what actually "would" the boy do that deserves such punishment? Disbelief? doesn't that confirm Islam's requirement to kill apostates? Do you support killing of apostates?)

“Evil Atheist :-)”

Since: Mar 07

Location hidden

#2375 Feb 24, 2014
hazem selawi wrote:
<quoted text>
it is impossible to find a term like "Democracy" In Quran or Sunnah, because apparently it is an English word, however the concept of Democracy can be found in both Quran and Mohammed actions and sayings, for instance you'll find the word " Shura" mentioned in Quran and Shura can be translated into "consultation", The Quran and Muhammad encourage Muslims to decide their affairs in consultation with those who will be affected by that decision.
Sunni Muslims and scholars believe that Islam requires all decisions made for the Muslim societies to be made by Shura of the Muslim community and believe this to be the basics for implementing Democracy.
It was common among Muhammad's companions to ask him if a certain advice was from God or from him. If it was from Muhammad, they felt free to give their opinion and Mohammed (PBUH) changed his decisions so many times, and such consultation happened all the time and specially in critical situations, it is a clear message for the Muslims to consult each other, every muslim could give his own opinion, even slaves had that right, for instance Mohammed consulted a slave (Salman al Faresi) in the battle of al Ahzab and Salman's opinion was a very important factor for the Muslims to win that battle, so political involvement and consultation can be seen clearly in Mohammed's biography.
when the prophet died all the Muslims gathered in Al Saqifa, to decide who is going to be the next caliph and finally they chose Abu Bakr, the early caliphates and Muslims applied this way (mubaya'a) until Ali bin Abi Taleb was killed Although he was elected to become the Caliph after Uthman but the caliphate was moved to Mou'ya and he started a new Era ( al Omawyoun).
thus the first four caliphs, or rulers of Islam, whom we call the Four Rightly-guided Caliphs, were chosen by Shura.
But is there a proper structure for councils or is it just the leader allowing his best friends to air their views?

Since: Oct 13

Location hidden

#2376 Feb 24, 2014
Igor Trip wrote:
<quoted text>
But is there a proper structure for councils or is it just the leader allowing his best friends to air their views?
at the early stages of Islam, Muslims used to gather in the mosque of Al Madina for the 5 prayers, and the mosque wasn't only for praying and worshiping but also a place to gather in and discuss political, economical ,social issues and even for training and to perform some sort of sports.

sometimes Muslims and companions of Mohammed in Al Madina used to hear the Athan (calling for prayer) at a different time of the prayers, so to them its a sign that there is something important and all Muslims should go to the mosque to see what is going on.



ashkarslave4ALLA H

Sana, Yemen

#2377 Feb 24, 2014
the answer 4 the people who ask

If Allah has the power to predict the boy's future, does he not have the power to correct it rather than killing him before reach the point of no return?

Allah does not change a people’s condition unless they change what is in their hearts - Shaykh Ibn Baz
Question: What is the Tafsir (explanation/exegesis of the meanings of the Qur’an) of Allah’s Saying in Surah (Qur’anic chapter) Ar-Ra`d, Verily, Allâh will not change the (good) condition of a people as long as they do not change their state (of goodness) themselves (by committing sins and by being ungrateful and disobedient to Allâh). But when Allâh wills a people’s punishment, there can be no turning back of it, and they will find besides Him no protector?
Answer:
This holy Ayah (Qur’anic verse) indicates that Allah (Glorified and Exalted be He) does not change - out of His Justice and Wisdom - the good state of a people into a bad one or vice versa, unless they change what is in themselves.
If they change their state of uprightness and integrity, Allah will change their state and overtake them with punishment, distresses, miseries, sterility, and other kinds of penalties, an exact recompense according to their evil crimes.
Allah (Glorified be He) says: And your Lord is not at all unjust to (His) slaves.
He (Glorified be He) may give them respite and gradually seize them with punishment in order that they might turn (to Allah’s Obedience); otherwise, He overtakes them.
Allah (Glorified be He) says:
So, when they forgot (the warning) with which they had been reminded, We opened for them the gates of every (pleasant) thing, until in the midst of their enjoyment in that which they were given, all of a sudden, We took them (in punishment), and lo! They were plunged into destruction with deep regrets and sorrows.
They become in despair of any good - may Allah save us from His Punishment and Resentment - and they may be put off until the Day of Resurrection where their punishment will be worse.
Allah (Glorified be He) says:
Consider not that Allâh is unaware of that which the Zâliműn (polytheists, wrong-doers) do, but He gives them respite up to a Day when the eyes will stare in horror.
The meaning is that they are postponed and given respite until after death, when the punishment will be more grave and much worse.
On the other hand, they may be in distress committing evils and sins, then repent to Allah regretfully and obey Him, so Allah changes their distress, dissension, adversity and poverty into prosperity, union, and welfare due to their good deeds and repentance to Allah (Glorified and Exalted be He).
In another context, Allah says:
That is so because Allâh will never change a grace which He has bestowed on a people until they change what is in their own selves.
This Ayah clarifies that when they are in prosperity and grace and then change and commit sins, Allah will change their state. There is neither might nor power except with Allah! They may be given respite as mentioned before.
Likewise, if they commit sins or disbelieve or go astray, then repent and adhere to obeying Allah, Allah will change their bad state into a good one. Allah will turn their dissension, adversity and sterility into unity, prosperity, fertility, and all kinds of goodness.

Since: Oct 13

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#2378 Feb 24, 2014
Rusty Tin Can wrote:
<quoted text>
The only lesson here is Allah was at fault.
Let me ask you this:
If Allah has the power to predict the boy's future, does he not have the power to correct it rather than killing him before reach the point of no return?
If Allah's "prediction" makes any sense in this case, did his prediction take into account his "interference" to make his future a "non-existence" event?
Was that Allah's fault to give him birth to begin with, surely this story reveals the fatalistic nature of Islam, "
I think we can both agree that God is all seeing, all hearing and the most wise, you are missing the point here, it doesn't matter if the kid was killed or not, this incident refers to death, you are not asking the right questions...!! because according to your logic why do children die ?? why some babies don't even make it to life and die during childbirth ?? why is there Bone cancer ??? and the most important question why didn't your god find any other way to forgive the whole world sins rather than killing his own son who begged to stay alive and hesitated according to mark Gospel ???!!

and for your last statement of one can only be accountable is when he/she actually commit crime on his/her freewill; I totally agree with that , however that specific Child would be a mercy for his own parents as in the hereafter inchalla (God willing) he is going to heaven and would wait for his own parents thus god made him a cause for the parents to enter heaven not to mention that if that kid got survived and stayed Alive god knows that he is not going to be a good man, you are a christian and you should agree with me that God knows the uncovered and the future and that would still have nothing to do with the free will, for instance god knows that you may commit a sin in the future but you still would do that sin with your complete free will.
Rusty Tin Can wrote:
<quoted text>
(and don't you think Allah was a little "vague" in revealing this verse? what actually "would" the boy do that deserves such punishment? Disbelief? doesn't that confirm Islam's requirement to kill apostates? Do you support killing of apostates?)
actually this verse has nothing to do with the punishment of apostasy , the apostasy punishment is extracted from other Hadiths and Quranic verses, Do I support killing apostates ??

of course I do, I accept everything in Islam, however the apostasy issue is widely misunderstood by non-Muslims and also some Muslims, in order to apply apostasy punishment you should at first apply the proper sharia Law (depending on the method of Mohammed and his closest companions, the four rightly guided caliphs), and Sharia law has a very wide scope including an entire Economical, Judicial, social and political systems, for instance under Sharia law the government should provide Oil, water and shelter to all civilians free of charge, as in Islam such natural resources are blesses from god to all people, thus all people should be partners in these resources.

second the Islamic government is responsible for applying these punishments, its not like lets find the apostate and kill him wherever we find him.

third the one who is accused of apostasy will be brought to a judge to find out why he decided to apostate, because at so many cases through history some Muslims committed apostasy because of the lack of knowledge or ignorance in Islam, and such people were brought to big mosques for debating with scholars in front of people.

so each case has its special circumstances, but Umar Bin Al Khattab the second caliph used different punishments for apostates during his caliphate, like what is called Westernization for a specific period of time ( sending the apostate for a strange country in order for him to see how non Muslims live, and may change his mind and go back to Islam), he also tried prison in some cases and lashing, and in other cases debating and discussing.

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