Richard Dawkins - God is evil, pedophilesa not so bad

Sep 14, 2013 Full story: Examiner.com 3,029

"The God of the Qur'an is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully.

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“Evil Atheist :-)”

Since: Mar 07

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#2184 Feb 3, 2014
hazem selawi wrote:
<quoted text>
its not only about girls, I don't see a problem for a boy to get married once he reached puberty as well, Why the hell not ??!
if you had the chance to get married at a very young age and of course you were financially capable , wouldn't you go for it ?
Do you realise the danger a young girl faces having to give birth to a full sized baby when her pelvis is still growing?
Do you have any idea just how many women (let alone girls) used to die in childbirth?

Yet because your prophet had sex with a 9 year old girl you dismiss all that and calmly claim that any girl who bleeds can breed!

That's the insane logic of cult followers desperate to defend their faith at all cost.

And that's what religion does to otherwise rational minds and that's why I reject it all!

Since: Oct 13

Location hidden

#2185 Feb 3, 2014
Igor Trip wrote:
<quoted text>
Do you realise the danger a young girl faces having to give birth to a full sized baby when her pelvis is still growing?
Do you have any idea just how many women (let alone girls) used to die in childbirth?
Yet because your prophet had sex with a 9 year old girl you dismiss all that and calmly claim that any girl who bleeds can breed!
That's the insane logic of cult followers desperate to defend their faith at all cost.
And that's what religion does to otherwise rational minds and that's why I reject it all!
its a good thing you are still alive, I previously sent you a Hadith regarding the sun rise and still looking forward for your response.

for the marriage issue that was only my opinion and I made it clear before that I dont have a problem with such a marriage as long as it guarantees no harm or any side effects, and that take us back to one of Mohammed's authentic Hadiths Mohammed Said "There should be neither harming nor reciprocating harm. "
it is considered as a golden Rule and before doing anything this Rule should be taken in consideration.

Since: Oct 13

Location hidden

#2186 Feb 3, 2014
Igor Trip wrote:
<quoted text>
Do you realise the danger a young girl faces having to give birth to a full sized baby when her pelvis is still growing?
Do you have any idea just how many women (let alone girls) used to die in childbirth?
Yet because your prophet had sex with a 9 year old girl you dismiss all that and calmly claim that any girl who bleeds can breed!
That's the insane logic of cult followers desperate to defend their faith at all cost.
And that's what religion does to otherwise rational minds and that's why I reject it all!
Ibn 'Abbas (A.S.) narrated that the Prophet (PBUH) was asked:

"Where does the sun set, and where does it rise from? The Messenger of Allah (PBUH) answered, "It is going in a (nonstop) regular motion; it does not cease or disappear. It sets in one place and rises in another, and sets in another place and rises elsewhere and so on. So, some people would say the sun has set and others would say it has just risen (at the same moment)."

“I started out with nothing”

Since: Nov 10

and still got most of it left

#2187 Feb 3, 2014
hazem selawi wrote:
<quoted text>
its a good thing you are still alive, I previously sent you a Hadith regarding the sun rise and still looking forward for your response.
for the marriage issue that was only my opinion and I made it clear before that I dont have a problem with such a marriage as long as it guarantees no harm or any side effects, and that take us back to one of Mohammed's authentic Hadiths Mohammed Said "There should be neither harming nor reciprocating harm. "
it is considered as a golden Rule and before doing anything this Rule should be taken in consideration.
You cannot guarantee no harm in exactly the same way as you cannot guarantee that a suicide bomber attacking a military target will not also kill innocent people.

But still you accept both the situations on the “assumption” that it will all turn out how you hope.

And when it all goes tits up you shrug your shoulders and blame allah

“Evil Atheist :-)”

Since: Mar 07

Location hidden

#2188 Feb 3, 2014
hazem selawi wrote:
<quoted text>
its a good thing you are still alive, I previously sent you a Hadith regarding the sun rise and still looking forward for your response.
for the marriage issue that was only my opinion and I made it clear before that I dont have a problem with such a marriage as long as it guarantees no harm or any side effects, and that take us back to one of Mohammed's authentic Hadiths Mohammed Said "There should be neither harming nor reciprocating harm. "
it is considered as a golden Rule and before doing anything this Rule should be taken in consideration.
Sorry for missing your post of the hadith. I'll reply below.

The only way anyone can reduce the potential harm of child birth is to wait until the girl has stopped growing, and that's long after her first period.
Pregnancy at an earlier age greatly increases the chances of her and her baby dying.

“Evil Atheist :-)”

Since: Mar 07

Location hidden

#2190 Feb 3, 2014
hazem selawi wrote:
<quoted text>
Ibn 'Abbas (A.S.) narrated that the Prophet (PBUH) was asked:
"Where does the sun set, and where does it rise from? The Messenger of Allah (PBUH) answered, "It is going in a (nonstop) regular motion; it does not cease or disappear. It sets in one place and rises in another, and sets in another place and rises elsewhere and so on. So, some people would say the sun has set and others would say it has just risen (at the same moment)."
Do you have a source for this hadith as I can't find one on the internet.

Hadiths are dodgy anyway. Here are some more.

Sahih Bukhari Volume 004, Book 054, Hadith Number 421.
Sahih Bukhari Book 54. Beginning Of Creation

Bismillah-Hir-Rahman-Nir-Rahee m
Narated By Abu Dhar : The Prophet asked me at sunset, "Do you know where the sun goes (at the time of sunset)?" I replied, "Allah and His Apostle know better." He said, "It goes (i.e. travels) till it prostrates Itself underneath the Throne and takes the permission to rise again, and it is permitted and then (a time will come when) it will be about to prostrate itself but its prostration will not be accepted, and it will ask permission to go on its course but it will not be permitted, but it will be ordered to return whence it has come and so it will rise in the west. And that is the interpretation of the Statement of Allah: "And the sun Runs its fixed course For a term (decreed). that is The Decree of (Allah) The Exalted in Might, The All-Knowing." (36.38)
http://hadithcollection.com/sahihbukhari/87/4...

Sahih Bukhari Volume 006, Book 060, Hadith Number 326.
Sahih Bukhari Book 60. Prophetic Commentary on the Qur'an (Tafseer of The Prophet (PBUH))

Bismillah-Hir-Rahman-Nir-Rahee m
Narrated By Abu Dharr : Once I was with the Prophet in the mosque at the time of sunset. The Prophet said, "O Abu Dharr! Do you know where the sun sets?" I replied, "Allah and His Apostle know best." He said, "It goes and prostrates underneath (Allah's) Throne; and that is Allah's Statement:
http://hadithcollection.com/sahihbukhari/93-s...

Since: Oct 13

Location hidden

#2191 Feb 3, 2014
Igor Trip wrote:
<quoted text>
Do you have a source for this hadith as I can't find one on the internet.
Hadiths are dodgy anyway. Here are some more.
Sahih Bukhari Volume 004, Book 054, Hadith Number 421.
Sahih Bukhari Book 54. Beginning Of Creation
Bismillah-Hir-Rahman-Nir-Rahee m
Narated By Abu Dhar : The Prophet asked me at sunset, "Do you know where the sun goes (at the time of sunset)?" I replied, "Allah and His Apostle know better." He said, "It goes (i.e. travels) till it prostrates Itself underneath the Throne and takes the permission to rise again, and it is permitted and then (a time will come when) it will be about to prostrate itself but its prostration will not be accepted, and it will ask permission to go on its course but it will not be permitted, but it will be ordered to return whence it has come and so it will rise in the west. And that is the interpretation of the Statement of Allah: "And the sun Runs its fixed course For a term (decreed). that is The Decree of (Allah) The Exalted in Might, The All-Knowing." (36.38)
http://hadithcollection.com/sahihbukhari/87/4...
Sahih Bukhari Volume 006, Book 060, Hadith Number 326.
Sahih Bukhari Book 60. Prophetic Commentary on the Qur'an (Tafseer of The Prophet (PBUH))
Bismillah-Hir-Rahman-Nir-Rahee m
Narrated By Abu Dharr : Once I was with the Prophet in the mosque at the time of sunset. The Prophet said, "O Abu Dharr! Do you know where the sun sets?" I replied, "Allah and His Apostle know best." He said, "It goes and prostrates underneath (Allah's) Throne; and that is Allah's Statement:
http://hadithcollection.com/sahihbukhari/93-s...
that is another Hadith describing the end of times, when the sun will rise from the west , its considered to be the greatest and the last sign of the end of times.

"but it will be ordered to return whence it has come and so it will rise in the west "
I think its scientifically accepted that someday the sun will appear as its rising from the west , as the earth will start to rotate in a reverse direction.

“Evil Atheist :-)”

Since: Mar 07

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#2193 Feb 3, 2014
hazem selawi wrote:
<quoted text>
that is another Hadith describing the end of times, when the sun will rise from the west , its considered to be the greatest and the last sign of the end of times.
"but it will be ordered to return whence it has come and so it will rise in the west "
I think its scientifically accepted that someday the sun will appear as its rising from the west , as the earth will start to rotate in a reverse direction.
You might want to read that hadith more carefully.

“Narated By Abu Dhar : The Prophet asked me at sunset, "Do you know where the sun goes (at the time of sunset)?" I replied, "Allah and His Apostle know better." He said, "It goes (i.e. travels) till it prostrates Itself underneath the Throne and takes the permission to rise again, and it is permitted and then (a time will come when) it will be about to prostrate itself but its prostration will not be accepted, and it will ask permission to go on its course but it will not be permitted, but it will be ordered to return whence it has come and so it will rise in the west. And that is the interpretation of the Statement of Allah: "And the sun Runs its fixed course For a term (decreed). that is The Decree of (Allah) The Exalted in Might, The All-Knowing." (36.38)”

It states the sun goes and prostrates itself under Allah's throne at sunset and then has to be permitted to rise again. Please explain that.

As for the sun setting in the west, whilst the earth's rotation is slowing down (due to the moon and tidal forces), once it stops there's no force there to make it rotate the other way. Also it will take about 50 billion years. As the Earth only has about 5 billion years before it's destroyed by the sun it will never rise in the west.

Since: Oct 13

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#2194 Feb 3, 2014
Igor Trip wrote:
<quoted text>
You might want to read that hadith more carefully.
“Narated By Abu Dhar : The Prophet asked me at sunset, "Do you know where the sun goes (at the time of sunset)?" I replied, "Allah and His Apostle know better." He said, "It goes (i.e. travels) till it prostrates Itself underneath the Throne and takes the permission to rise again, and it is permitted and then (a time will come when) it will be about to prostrate itself but its prostration will not be accepted, and it will ask permission to go on its course but it will not be permitted, but it will be ordered to return whence it has come and so it will rise in the west. And that is the interpretation of the Statement of Allah: "And the sun Runs its fixed course For a term (decreed). that is The Decree of (Allah) The Exalted in Might, The All-Knowing." (36.38)”
It states the sun goes and prostrates itself under Allah's throne at sunset and then has to be permitted to rise again. Please explain that.
As for the sun setting in the west, whilst the earth's rotation is slowing down (due to the moon and tidal forces), once it stops there's no force there to make it rotate the other way. Also it will take about 50 billion years. As the Earth only has about 5 billion years before it's destroyed by the sun it will never rise in the west.
you can check this website, this Hadith was explained by the Scientific Research Committee - IslamToday.net

http://forums.understanding-islam.com/showthr...

and the isnad of the Hadith "Ibn Abbas narrated that the Prophet was asked:
Where does the sun set, and where does it rise from? The Messenger of Allah (PBUH) answered, It is going in a (nonstop) regular motion; it does not cease or disappear. It sets in one place and rises in another, and sets in another place and rises elsewhere and so on. So, some people would say the sun has set and others would say it has just risen (at the same moment).
Reported by Imam Abi Is-haq al Hamadhani in â&#128;&#156;Musnad Imam Abi Is-haq al-Hamadhaniâ. "

Ibn al-Qayyim said:

The fabricated (mawdooâ&#128;&#152;) hadeeths sound grim and are clumsily worded, with far-fetched ideas which clearly indicate that they have been fabricated and falsely attributed to the Messenger of Allah .

See: al-Manaar al-Muneef, p. 56-62
Upon consideration, this hadeeth is of that type. It is more akin to the words of astronomers and geographers.

thus this Hadith may be Weak or mawdooa

“Evil Atheist :-)”

Since: Mar 07

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#2195 Feb 4, 2014
hazem selawi wrote:
<quoted text>
you can check this website, this Hadith was explained by the Scientific Research Committee - IslamToday.net
http://forums.understanding-islam.com/showthr...
and the isnad of the Hadith "Ibn Abbas narrated that the Prophet was asked:
Where does the sun set, and where does it rise from? The Messenger of Allah (PBUH) answered, It is going in a (nonstop) regular motion; it does not cease or disappear. It sets in one place and rises in another, and sets in another place and rises elsewhere and so on. So, some people would say the sun has set and others would say it has just risen (at the same moment).
Reported by Imam Abi Is-haq al Hamadhani in â&#128;&#156;Musnad Imam Abi Is-haq al-Hamadhaniâ. "
Ibn al-Qayyim said:
The fabricated (mawdooâ&#128;&#152;) hadeeths sound grim and are clumsily worded, with far-fetched ideas which clearly indicate that they have been fabricated and falsely attributed to the Messenger of Allah .
See: al-Manaar al-Muneef, p. 56-62
Upon consideration, this hadeeth is of that type. It is more akin to the words of astronomers and geographers.
thus this Hadith may be Weak or mawdooa
So any hadith you don't like can be ignored?

Well if you can ignore the ones you don't like I can ignore the ones you do like.
Probably best to stick to the Quran then.

Have you found the source of that hadith you posted?

Since: Oct 13

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#2196 Feb 4, 2014
Igor Trip wrote:
<quoted text>
So any hadith you don't like can be ignored?
Well if you can ignore the ones you don't like I can ignore the ones you do like.
Probably best to stick to the Quran then.
Have you found the source of that hadith you posted?
Hahahah no you got it wrong, the Hadith you brought is a Sahih Hadith but the one I liked turned out to be weak :D

Since: Oct 13

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#2197 Feb 4, 2014
ChristineM wrote:
<quoted text>
And my point is that she said (actually chose to document) that it was painful and flicks are not painful unless deliberately and forcefully aimed at a tender spot such as a bare nipple
However a thump/push/strike in the breast of a woman is painful, can be extremely so. So much so that is it used as one method of torture by those so wonderfully enlightened and sick minded governments that seem to proliferate in you neck of the woods.
You really have no comprehension of the psychology of human beings do you? The victims in abusive relationships are subservient to their abuser and grateful for any contrition the abuses may offer after a violent attack. The vary fact that the abuser has chosen (by the will of allah) to talk to his victim would have given Aisha hope. It’s all part of the abusers strategy.
You as a Muslim choose to treat women in the way your god books teaches and you see nothing wrong with that, you see nothing that goes against decency, morality and human rights in that teaching. Non Muslims on the other hand see your treatment of women (and animals) as degrading, disgusting, often violent, immoral and against the very essence of equality of gender taught by human rights
So you are welcome to interpret and live by the mores of your 1400 year old god book as best suits your reason for belief. Me and the vast majority of the population will stick with the reality of real life every time
One final point, an abuser will never see themselves as the abuser but often as the victim and give the excise of “they made me do it”.
so In short words you are saying that Mohammed was an abuser ??!
you know a little bit about ancient cultures, why don't you enlighten us; how were women treated in ancient Rome for instance , India or whatever take a wild guess, a brief description about women rights 2000 years ago will be amazing as well.
Mahmood

Mississauga, Canada

#2199 Feb 4, 2014
hazem selawi wrote:
<quoted text>
Perhaps I didn't get your point, that verse "This day I have perfected for you your religion and completed My favor upon you..." was one of the last verses revealed to Mohammed (PBUH)
or the last verse, I am not sure , because it was revealed before the death of Mohammed by a very short time.
There are many issues that the Koran does not address. One that comes to my mind is when during the month of Ramazan, a muslim will not know how long to fast if he is in an area where there is no daylight during the winter or darkness during the summer. This is an issue that the Koran does not confront. He has to rely on some ulema or mufti for advice.

Mohammad never perfected the religion of Islam. He left it to scholars who formed their own school of thought.
Mahmood

Mississauga, Canada

#2200 Feb 4, 2014
hazem selawi wrote:
<quoted text>
of course if she wanted to, why not ??
as long as the one can know the difference between right and wrong; I Dont think its a problem to get married, if I had the chance to grow up with my wife I would be really glad.
<quoted text>
I already gave you another verse which states that Mohammed should teach us his followers on how to apply the Quran and Islam through our lives.
there were lots of Sects appeared through history and claimed that the Quran itself may be enough to understand Islam they were called (Al Quraniyoon) or Ahl al-Qur&#702;&#257;n.
if you believe in Quran I can prove to you that Allah order us to follow Sunnah in numerous verses such as
59:7"...And whatever the Messenger has given you - take; and what he has forbidden you - refrain from. And fear Allah ; indeed, Allah is severe in penalty."
Mohammed did complete the message of Islam as he (PBUH) recited and made sure that his companions and followers have memorized the whole Quran and wrote it down, and taught them every aspect of life.
You are pathetic if you think it's okay for a girl to marry at age 9. I hope you do not have daughters. For all we know, all these sunnahs and hadiths could be fabricated.

Since: Oct 13

Location hidden

#2201 Feb 4, 2014
ChristineM wrote:
<quoted text>
And yet you hang on every word documented, act in the way his dictated, give him epaulets in the form of - praise be unto him – this all sounds very much like worship.
We never say "praise be unto him" that would be shirk and would be like making another god with Allah,(PBUH) is the short for peace be upon him not praise and there is a big difference, we also say peace be upon on different prophets like Jesus , Moses ...etc
ChristineM wrote:
<quoted text>
What miracles? Why, because that was the way to be. Money is not everything in power, look at the late JC was also skint for all his life and look what he became, he’s wound up with twice as many followers as Moh has.
Jesus was a Muslim but his followers made him a god or the son of god.
ChristineM wrote:
<quoted text>
Yes and girls in the UK, that is considerably colder than Jordan, also reach puberty between 11 and 13, sometimes even earlier. I for example had my first period not long after my 10th birthday. Even the link you provided gives no reference to temperature being a factor.
So reading the book as it was written is nonsense. Thank you – you have just agreed with what I said (thought you will never admit it)- zap goes your religion from your own mouth
we started this whole conversation to prove to "thinking" that Aisha with no doubt reached puberty before Mohammed was physically with her.
ChristineM wrote:
<quoted text>
Honey, as I have said previously, you are not very good at the human psychology thing, there is very little fear of prison, if there were then the prison population would be zero.
What drives people to good and bad is their morality, which began to develop in homo sapiens before homo sapiens were homo sapiens and whole aeons before gods were even though of. Without morality there would be no civilisation
How come every time you post anything you act like every word comes out of your mouth is a non negotiable fact, I do agree with you on the morality thing but you cannot say that no one fears to go to prison ,law punishments or may get a little fear of getting fired from a Job,
Fear is a very important factor in our lives, I think without fear our whole life would be different, you cannot say for instance that you don't have some kind of fear that one of your kids may get addicted to drugs and that may lead you to become protective and make sure to raise your children as good as you can.
ChristineM wrote:
<quoted text>
You say you wouldn’t kill an ant yet you revel in suicide bombings of those who oppose you which incidentally means anyone else who juts happens to be in the blast radius
So what do you Suggest Muslims should do ??! or you just want us to watch our brothers getting killed and our women being raped ..!!

I see it as a great accomplishment for Muslims to make their enemies think twice and spend billions if not hundreds of billions of Dollars on wars against us, while we hardly have the very minimum requirements of an organized Army, Can you imagine an army fighting with no Air force and still make severe losses to our enemies.

and for the million time a suicide bombing should only target military locations, as I told you (Humam Khalil Abu Mulal al-Balawi) operation in Afghanistan may stand as a good example of the kind of suicide bombings I, good Muslims and scholars support and accept.

Since: Oct 13

Location hidden

#2203 Feb 4, 2014
Mahmood wrote:
<quoted text>
There are many issues that the Koran does not address. One that comes to my mind is when during the month of Ramazan, a muslim will not know how long to fast if he is in an area where there is no daylight during the winter or darkness during the summer. This is an issue that the Koran does not confront. He has to rely on some ulema or mufti for advice.
everything you said in this post prove that Sunnah and hadiths is a major part of the message of Islam thus it cannot be applied without Mohammed teachings
Mahmood wrote:
<quoted text>
Mohammad never perfected the religion of Islam. He left it to scholars who formed their own school of thought.
you remind me of a writer his name is Dr.Laurence B.Brown, he was a famous novelist as he wrote some popular novels and used to be an atheist, later on he had a very big problem once his daughter got very sick and almost died and the whole situation got out of his hands, so he looked up to the sky and said god if you are there..??!! help me and if you cured my daughter I promise to study religions and choose the best and follow it in order to please you, his daughter got better and he started to study religions; he started with Judaism, Christianity Buddhism and nearly studied all famous religions until he converted to Islam, one of the greatest obstacles he faced in Islam was the little disagreement between scholars and wanted Islam to be agreed on by all scholars (Just like how you say that Mohammed then didnt perfect the religion of Islam), although Dr. Laurence converted that question was kept with no answer to him he later on traveled to Madina and decided to become a scholar and asked that question to one of the well educated scholars, that Scholar told him look at that building as they were walking and asked him what if that building was built with no flexibility and the foundations of that building were built and designed with zero resistance of other factors; what would happen ?? a Strong storm or a very light earth quick would destroy the whole building he said, Just like Islam more than 95% is agreed on but there is a room from disagreements and difference in opinions because Mohammed (PBUH) acted differently and said different things depending on circumstances of each case, for instance Mohammed sometimes used to say "BISMILLAH" out loud during prayers and sometimes didn't , so some scholars or Madahhbs say we should always say Bismillah out loud during prayers and some said we should always say it silently and so on, thus difference in opinions adds flexibility to Islam and guarantees the religion to stay alive.

So Mohammed did perfect and complete the religion of Islam through his teachings because scholars cannot extract any rules or make any fatwas without Hadiths and Mohammed actions and/or teachings.

Since: Oct 13

Location hidden

#2204 Feb 4, 2014
Thinking wrote:
Then stop killing and raping.
<quoted text>
True Muslims never rape nor kill innocents, but we'll keep fighting till all infidel armies are out of our lands, don't expect us to act like mahatma Gandhi.
Mahmood

Mississauga, Canada

#2206 Feb 4, 2014
hazem selawi wrote:
<quoted text>
everything you said in this post prove that Sunnah and hadiths is a major part of the message of Islam thus it cannot be applied without Mohammed teachings
<quoted text>
you remind me of a writer his name is Dr.Laurence B.Brown, he was a famous novelist as he wrote some popular novels and used to be an atheist, later on he had a very big problem once his daughter got very sick and almost died and the whole situation got out of his hands, so he looked up to the sky and said god if you are there..??!! help me and if you cured my daughter I promise to study religions and choose the best and follow it in order to please you, his daughter got better and he started to study religions; he started with Judaism, Christianity Buddhism and nearly studied all famous religions until he converted to Islam, one of the greatest obstacles he faced in Islam was the little disagreement between scholars and wanted Islam to be agreed on by all scholars (Just like how you say that Mohammed then didnt perfect the religion of Islam), although Dr. Laurence converted that question was kept with no answer to him he later on traveled to Madina and decided to become a scholar and asked that question to one of the well educated scholars, that Scholar told him look at that building as they were walking and asked him what if that building was built with no flexibility and the foundations of that building were built and designed with zero resistance of other factors; what would happen ?? a Strong storm or a very light earth quick would destroy the whole building he said, Just like Islam more than 95% is agreed on but there is a room from disagreements and difference in opinions because Mohammed (PBUH) acted differently and said different things depending on circumstances of each case, for instance Mohammed sometimes used to say "BISMILLAH" out loud during prayers and sometimes didn't , so some scholars or Madahhbs say we should always say Bismillah out loud during prayers and some said we should always say it silently and so on, thus difference in opinions adds flexibility to Islam and guarantees the religion to stay alive.
So Mohammed did perfect and complete the religion of Islam through his teachings because scholars cannot extract any rules or make any fatwas without Hadiths and Mohammed actions and/or teachings.
There are many scholars who converted to and from Islam - no big deal. Had Mohammad perfected the religion of Islam, there would be no need for hadiths & sunnahs. How do you know that a sunnah or a hadith is not fabricated? What means of varification do you have other than reading books written by people 250 years after the fact? You can't even prove that the Koran we have today is verbatim the same Koran dictated by Mohammad. Only your allah would know how much of the Koran actually comes from Mohammad. Even Ishaq's sira was written 150 years after Mohammad's demise and that too was edited by his student Ibn Hisham. BTW, this "bismillah rehman & rahim" bares resemblence to the Zoroastrian invocation of God.

This rumour that people memorized the Koran during Mohammad's lifetime is only a claim done in order to mask the dubious circumstances under which Koran came into existence.

“I started out with nothing”

Since: Nov 10

and still got most of it left

#2207 Feb 5, 2014
hazem selawi wrote:
<quoted text>
so In short words you are saying that Mohammed was an abuser ??!
you know a little bit about ancient cultures, why don't you enlighten us; how were women treated in ancient Rome for instance , India or whatever take a wild guess, a brief description about women rights 2000 years ago will be amazing as well.
That’s the way it reads

It makes no difference where and when you are, if you beat defenceless person then by today’s standards (at least in civilised countries) you are an abuser.

In more enlightened times of today this is understood and there have been laws put in place (at least in civilised countries) to help solve the problem of such abuse. It is not necessarily testosterone fuelled and egotestical driven violence either, women can be violent too and the laws apply equally to them.

As I have already said, I abide by the laws of the country and time I live, not the violence of 2000 years ago. However you are welcome to live as you choose, just don’t try and get me to agree that violence is ever right. Even in the name of some mythical god, violence is an emotional abnormality that shows lack of self control.

“I started out with nothing”

Since: Nov 10

and still got most of it left

#2208 Feb 5, 2014
hazem selawi wrote:
<quoted text>
so In short words you are saying that Mohammed was an abuser ??!
you know a little bit about ancient cultures, why don't you enlighten us; how were women treated in ancient Rome for instance , India or whatever take a wild guess, a brief description about women rights 2000 years ago will be amazing as well.
You don’t seem to understand the historical rights of women outride the middle east and the repression of the abrahamic god.

Certainly in northern Europe women were worshipped as great providers as nature was worshipped, In Pict and Celtic Europe they were equal to and fought alongside men. In the western med (Greece/Italy/parts of North Africa) women were guards at holy temples. In the Roman Empire freeborn women were citizens, they had the same rights as men to own property (including slaves) and to run businesses. Those who had born three children were raised to the status of matron with special privileges over and above the average man. T he limitations that Rome imposed on freeborn women was denying the right to vote, the right to hold political office and the right to fight in the army

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