20+ Questions for Theists
Andre

Cape Town, South Africa

#251 Jun 27, 2014
Hidingfromyou wrote:
<quoted text>
Everything. It's a book of mythology. Everything it explains about biology and physics is dead wrong - and magic and morality.
Please substantiate with fact my friend.
Thinking

Sturminster Newton, UK

#252 Jun 27, 2014
No. Saying you can't use the same furniture as a menstruating woman is totally mental. Your bible is mental.

Do you want segregated airplanes or do you just want to ban ovulating women from them?
Andre wrote:
<quoted text>Your comment somewhat off the mark my friend. It is a health issue and not discriminatory practice. Do yourself a favour and study it - you will see the error is on your side..
You will know that recent discoveries confirm the Bible rather than disprove it. The exodus of Israel from Egypt has been questioned. Now George Stephen, a satellite-image analyst found indications that a massive number of people apparently traveled the route described in the Bible. It is not conclusive proof of course, but you will continue to see that all new discoveries will support rather than disprove the Bible to an honest observer.
There are also documentary evidence of artifacts resembling broken wheels and axes at the bottom of the Red Sea.
Thinking

Sturminster Newton, UK

#253 Jun 27, 2014
I believe you will find Hiding's qualifications on biology will be a little bit more impressive than some boorish boer's. But go ahead. Make me laugh.
Andre wrote:
<quoted text>You miss the point with woman. Do some research and you will see. To help you a little, look into bacteria.
Please provide evidence for your claim that the exodus is fictional -supported by proper evidence. It is easy to make sweeping statements. Just supply the proof my friend. The facts, as you would insist is the only proof.
You may know that all claims previously "disproving" the Bible has on further evidence supported it. Take writing at the time of Moses, Walls of Jericho. I will post a few more in a while as my time is a little limited at this stage.
Richardfs

Merrylands, Australia

#254 Jun 27, 2014
Thinking wrote:
I believe you will find Hiding's qualifications on biology will be a little bit more impressive than some boorish boer's. But go ahead. Make me laugh.
<quoted text>
I too like to watch Hiding at work, she does such a great job of tearing apart these loafs and she does it so politely.

“A sentient umbrella speaks”

Since: Mar 11

Some stable somewhere

#255 Jun 28, 2014
Andre wrote:
<quoted text>You miss the point with woman. Do some research and you will see. To help you a little, look into bacteria.
Please provide evidence for your claim that the exodus is fictional -supported by proper evidence. It is easy to make sweeping statements. Just supply the proof my friend. The facts, as you would insist is the only proof.
You may know that all claims previously "disproving" the Bible has on further evidence supported it. Take writing at the time of Moses, Walls of Jericho. I will post a few more in a while as my time is a little limited at this stage.
I've provided evidence on these threads before about Exodus. Learned my lesson with you believers - nothing rational convinces you.

You are making positive claims about the bible, that's it's been supported by evidence. That's completely false, but whatever, let's see your evidence.

For one thing, it gets biology entirely wrong - bats are not birds, the order of the emergence of animals didn't happen as described in that mythology, the very idea of the story of Noah being true is so ridiculous that anyone believing it has no grasp on our contemporary understanding of science, history, geology - just about every science.

Oh, yeah, Jericho actually existed. The timing claimed in the bible is incorrect though.

Anyways, whatever, here is some archaeology. I know you won't "believe" it, but just in case others read this:

http://books.google.co.jp/books...

So...no slaves built the pyramids. In fact, we have Egyptian records detailing the provisioning and sleeping quarters of the laborers - not slaves - who built the pyramids. They were Egyptian citizens, not Jews, working in their off-season. They were given meat, bread and beer rations - including medicines.

Here's an anthropology piece describing the conscripted laborers:

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1525/ga...

Another book detailing their provisioning:

http://books.google.co.jp/books...

So...Exodus, false. Done. You want me to disprove any specific parts of your holy book? Should I get into Noah now?

“A sentient umbrella speaks”

Since: Mar 11

Some stable somewhere

#256 Jun 28, 2014
Thinking wrote:
I believe you will find Hiding's qualifications on biology will be a little bit more impressive than some boorish boer's. But go ahead. Make me laugh.
<quoted text>
You know I love you Thinking :)

:)
:)

“A sentient umbrella speaks”

Since: Mar 11

Some stable somewhere

#257 Jun 28, 2014
Andre wrote:
<quoted text>Please substantiate with fact my friend.
Sure. Provide a claim from your mythology book and I'll disprove it.

“A sentient umbrella speaks”

Since: Mar 11

Some stable somewhere

#258 Jun 28, 2014
Thinking wrote:
Birds have four legs. Wrong.
Insects have just four legs. Wrong.
Rabbits chew the cud. Wrong.
<quoted text>
Oh. I guess you just did it.

Now we'll be seeing the "selective reading" power of the believers along with the amazing power to ignore reality.

So this year I'm teaching in Tokyo at one of the top universities in Japan. It's a true pleasure! The last uni I taught in - in one of the worst states in the USA for education - the students were not super good. Here, most people are learning in their second language, no problem. It's pretty amazing.

Anyways, we started the semester with Durkheim's "The Elementary Forms of Religious Life" which you can find here:

http://scholar.google.com/scholar...

It's a pretty good work. He claims "All religions are true" b/c he's talking about how each and every one of them acts to order experience w/in a certain worldview - the religious here literally live in a created world. He's before neuroscience, so before we can talk about enculturation and the brain, but he's basically correct.

So the funny thing is, if you're a thinking person and you read it, you also get the reading "all religions are therefore human constructs and are not objectively real."

Now, nearing the end of the semester, we just started in with Geertz's "Religion as a Cultural System" here:
http://scholar.google.co.jp/scholar...

Geertz does the same thing, but discusses the way in which religions organize reality through symbols (of ritual, of meaning, etc). Again, all religions are equal and none of them are objectively real, but that's not the point. They organize reality for believers - and believers constantly fail to grasp that.

I kind of love that we get to see that here every day. It never ceases to impress me that they cannot remove the blinders of arrogance.

"Only my religion and religious beliefs are real. Everyone else just doesn't get it!"

hahaha! What's not to love? Sooooooooooo cute.

“A sentient umbrella speaks”

Since: Mar 11

Some stable somewhere

#259 Jun 28, 2014
Andre wrote:
<quoted text>You miss the point with woman. Do some research and you will see. To help you a little, look into bacteria.
Uhh...uhm...ah...where to start?

Do you know what menstruation is for - why it occurs?

Do you know what the difference between bacteria and fungi is? I mean...really basic differences here.

“A sentient umbrella speaks”

Since: Mar 11

Some stable somewhere

#260 Jun 28, 2014
Richardfs wrote:
<quoted text>
I too like to watch Hiding at work, she does such a great job of tearing apart these loafs and she does it so politely.
Hey! How're you doing?

:)

Miss you too!

“A sentient umbrella speaks”

Since: Mar 11

Some stable somewhere

#261 Jun 28, 2014
Andre wrote:
<quoted text>You miss the point with woman. Do some research and you will see. To help you a little, look into bacteria.
Please provide evidence for your claim that the exodus is fictional -supported by proper evidence. It is easy to make sweeping statements. Just supply the proof my friend. The facts, as you would insist is the only proof.
You may know that all claims previously "disproving" the Bible has on further evidence supported it. Take writing at the time of Moses, Walls of Jericho. I will post a few more in a while as my time is a little limited at this stage.
Oh, here's another piece. This paper is a nice little history of archaeology of the bible:

http://www.yorku.ca/dcarveth/false_testament

The thing that you're failing to realize is that your religion, like all religions, is the product of history and culture. Culture is dynamic, constantly changing. The mythologies of the Ancient Jews, later Jews and Ancient and later Christians change over time. After it was codified, which only happened after lots of contributing oral stories were written down at separate times, then collected into a whole, meanings attached to it also changed over time.

The OT was established to provide identity for the Jews. It carves out a special place for them through its mythology. The myths are attached to places those people would have been familiar with, but engage in fictional representations of history (hence the impossible anachronisms in the bible and the fictional Exodus).

It's amazing to me that a small group of believers such as yourself cling to the very strange idea that everything in the bible is accurate and supported by science - science has utterly divorced itself from the bible. None of our theoretical frameworks pay any homage whatsoever to deities, magical creatures or magic.

Not a single scientific discipline relies on the bible for anything. Some academic disciplines study the bible - as a work of fiction, as a mythology, as literature.

It's true that a lot of sciences had their origins in religion. But through hypothesis testing, all mythological narratives have been left waaaaaay in the past, without so much as a "let's catch up some time."

Even the early great scientists divorced divinity from their research. Gregor Mendel, the monk who discovered genetics, didn't include your god in his research. The great Linnaeus who's biological classification system ours is based on, and who studied biology in an attempt to know his god, didn't include the bible's incorrect way of dividing species up nor the silly and childish naming practices of contemporary creationists.

No part of your mythology informs our science. Not a single word. The bible is utterly worthless at describing reality as an efficacious, knowledge producing system.
Thinking

Sturminster Newton, UK

#262 Jun 28, 2014
I love the way your mind works, too.

Always nice to "see" you, even if you're only passing though.

:)
Hidingfromyou wrote:
<quoted text>
You know I love you Thinking :)
:)
:)
Thinking

Sturminster Newton, UK

#263 Jun 28, 2014
Aiming to answer
fundies in just seventeen
syllables (or less)
Hidingfromyou wrote:
<quoted text>
Oh. I guess you just did it.
Now we'll be seeing the "selective reading" power of the believers along with the amazing power to ignore reality.
So this year I'm teaching in Tokyo at one of the top universities in Japan. It's a true pleasure! The last uni I taught in - in one of the worst states in the USA for education - the students were not super good. Here, most people are learning in their second language, no problem. It's pretty amazing.
Anyways, we started the semester with Durkheim's "The Elementary Forms of Religious Life" which you can find here:
http://scholar.google.com/scholar...
It's a pretty good work. He claims "All religions are true" b/c he's talking about how each and every one of them acts to order experience w/in a certain worldview - the religious here literally live in a created world. He's before neuroscience, so before we can talk about enculturation and the brain, but he's basically correct.
So the funny thing is, if you're a thinking person and you read it, you also get the reading "all religions are therefore human constructs and are not objectively real."
Now, nearing the end of the semester, we just started in with Geertz's "Religion as a Cultural System" here:
http://scholar.google.co.jp/scholar...
Geertz does the same thing, but discusses the way in which religions organize reality through symbols (of ritual, of meaning, etc). Again, all religions are equal and none of them are objectively real, but that's not the point. They organize reality for believers - and believers constantly fail to grasp that.
I kind of love that we get to see that here every day. It never ceases to impress me that they cannot remove the blinders of arrogance.
"Only my religion and religious beliefs are real. Everyone else just doesn't get it!"
hahaha! What's not to love? Sooooooooooo cute.

“A sentient umbrella speaks”

Since: Mar 11

Some stable somewhere

#264 Jun 28, 2014
Thinking wrote:
Aiming to answer
fundies in just seventeen
syllables (or less)
<quoted text>
hahaha, fantastic haiku!
Andre

Welkom, South Africa

#265 Jul 1, 2014
Hidingfromyou wrote:
<quoted text>
Oh, here's another piece. This paper is a nice little history of archaeology of the bible:
http://www.yorku.ca/dcarveth/false_testament

The OT was established to provide identity for the Jews..
Not a single scientific discipline relies on the bible for anything. Some academic disciplines study the bible - as a work of fiction, as a mythology, as literature.
It's true that a lot of sciences had their origins in religion. But through hypothesis testing, all mythological narratives have been left waaaaaay in the past, without so much as a "let's catch up some time."
The bible is utterly worthless at describing reality as an efficacious, knowledge producing system.
You will notice that the information in the piece quoted even right at the beginning states ,” the Israelites are now “ thought” to have been an 'indigenous culture that developed west of the Jordan River”– which is hardly a statement of fact – mere conjecture. No fact established beyond hypotheses has ever contradicted the Bible.
From the Bible it is clear that God did choose Israel as a nation to be a separate people and thus seemingly consistent with the opinion that they were given a certain identity. The following is quite noteworthy:“And I will establish My covenant between Me and you, and your descendants after you, throughout the generations. An eternal covenant to be your God, and the God of your descendants after you”(Genesis 17-7). Several
The following was noted “The Egyptian, Babylonian, and the Persian rose, filled the planet with sound and splendor, then faded to dream-stuff and passed away. The Greek and Roman followed, made a vast noise and they are gone. Other peoples have sprung up, and held their torch high for a time, but it burned out and they sit in twilight now or have vanished”, yet the Jewish nation, persecuted and exiled, exists to this day and in fulfilment of prophecy, was established again as a nation in their land in 1948.
Are you suggesting that the Bible is supposed to be a book about science? I nowhere claimed this, only that facts established in the Bible has not been proven incorrect.
I note with interest that science had to invent certain concepts to suggest the Bible wrong –like the big bang (which, I understand is on its last legs) due to inconsistencies in the model. Similarly theoretical constructs like dark matter and dark energy had to be “invented” to try and explain matters inconsistent with existing theories and observations. Science has its limitations and is a wonderful field of study for those interested in real science – whether they are Christian or not. There is however a dark cloud hanging over science in the form of proven fraud and deception- rather suggesting that if you had to look for myth and smoke and mirrors, modern science seems to be a good candidate.
So in essence, real findings (and not speculation and theories) consistently prove the Bible right whereas science seems to have some difficulty in maintaining its status as a discipline of integrity.
Science can only measure the natural world and can only express ideas about that. Its field of study is not the supernatural. Even in its own domain, there are various “explanations” of natural events – with continuous adjustments and contradicting explanations. As an example, consider the gravitational model versus the “electric universe”. Thus even in its own field, there is no “final answer” it seems.
Place that against the Bible that has stood the test despite a rather serious attempt to discredit it.
Sorry to ask this, but can you please briefly outline your "proof" that Israelites in Egypt is a myth, as well as the proof that exodus never happened. Not conjecture, but proof.

I am sorry that I hav
Andre

Welkom, South Africa

#266 Jul 1, 2014
Hidingfromyou wrote:
<quoted text>
Uhh...uhm...ah...where to start?
Do you know what menstruation is for - why it occurs?
Do you know what the difference between bacteria and fungi is? I mean...really basic differences here.
This may come as a surprise to you
"Menstrual blood can be an irritant for some people, and skin irritation could increase susceptibility to various STD infections."
as well as
"A woman's risk of sexually transmitted disease and infection is higher than normal during this time because the cervix opens to allow blood to pass through. Unfortunately, this creates the perfect pathway for bacteria to travel deep inside the pelvic cavity. A woman is also more likely to pass on blood-borne diseases like HIV and hepatitis "
I am sure if it is a specific area of interest to you, you will find other pieces of relevant information. It did not take me too long to find this.
Thinking

Poole, UK

#267 Jul 1, 2014
Any time.

I see some fundies still think that 2600 year old advice about feminine hygiene is better than today's.

Don't forget to burn those doves next time you finish your cycle!
Hidingfromyou wrote:
<quoted text>
hahaha, fantastic haiku!

“A sentient umbrella speaks”

Since: Mar 11

Some stable somewhere

#268 Jul 1, 2014
Andre wrote:
<quoted text>This may come as a surprise to you
"Menstrual blood can be an irritant for some people, and skin irritation could increase susceptibility to various STD infections."
as well as
"A woman's risk of sexually transmitted disease and infection is higher than normal during this time because the cervix opens to allow blood to pass through. Unfortunately, this creates the perfect pathway for bacteria to travel deep inside the pelvic cavity. A woman is also more likely to pass on blood-borne diseases like HIV and hepatitis "
I am sure if it is a specific area of interest to you, you will find other pieces of relevant information. It did not take me too long to find this.
Why do Christians always cherry-pick their information?

This is from the same source you got the above quotations:

"In the end, the data on period sex and STD risk isn't all that clear. While self-reported data does suggest that period sex is associated with an increased risk of STDs, more rigorous studies have not found as clear-cut results."

I'll even post the link that you failed to do so in your intellectual dishonesty:

http://std.about.com/od/riskfactorsforstds/f/...

“A sentient umbrella speaks”

Since: Mar 11

Some stable somewhere

#269 Jul 1, 2014
Andre wrote:
<quoted text>You will notice that the information in the piece quoted even right at the beginning states ,” the Israelites are now “ thought” to have been an 'indigenous culture that developed west of the Jordan River”– which is hardly a statement of fact – mere conjecture. No fact established beyond hypotheses has ever contradicted the Bible.
I see you aren't familiar with how scientists write and speak.

In science, we don't prove anything. We build evidence to support hypotheses. Do you know what a hypothesis is? It's a stated relationship between two or more variables that can be tested.

So, we take the hypothesis as stated in the Bible "The Jews migrated into the Jordan River" and test it by digging up the area. Oh, no Jews found in Egypt at all. Oh, no Jews found outside of the Jordan river at all. Ok, so the Biblical hypothesis is not supported.

Therefore we have to look at what's called the "null hypothesis," which is the hypothesis that is supported if your original one fails. The null hypothesis in this case is that the Jews did not migrate in, but in fact are indigenous to the area.

Wow, ok, so more digging. Huh. All evidence thus far demonstrates that the Jews were, in fact, indigenous to the area. They didn't migrate in, but made that myth up to build cultural identity.

The funny thing is that the Jewish state of Israel supports the contemporary archaeological views here - and disregards the stories in the Bible. Exodus did not happen - there's not a shred of evidence to support it.

“A sentient umbrella speaks”

Since: Mar 11

Some stable somewhere

#270 Jul 1, 2014
Andre wrote:
From the Bible it is clear that God did choose Israel as a nation to be a separate people and thus seemingly consistent with the opinion that they were given a certain identity.
Huh, that's neat. So the Bible acknowledges that it was made up to provide an identity for a group of people? Cool.
The following was noted “The Egyptian, Babylonian, and the Persian rose, filled the planet with sound and splendor, then faded to dream-stuff and passed away. The Greek and Roman followed, made a vast noise and they are gone. Other peoples have sprung up, and held their torch high for a time, but it burned out and they sit in twilight now or have vanished”, yet the Jewish nation, persecuted and exiled, exists to this day and in fulfilment of prophecy, was established again as a nation in their land in 1948.
That's awesome. Prophecy from all kinds of religion "comes true" if you really believe it - i.e., by interpreting in the manner that fulfills your beliefs.

Anyways, if that's true then perhaps Christians should be Jewish and not Christian?
Are you suggesting that the Bible is supposed to be a book about science?
No, it's a mythology.
I nowhere claimed this, only that facts established in the Bible has not been proven incorrect.
They have been. Exodus, the Flood - these are fictions.
I note with interest that science had to invent certain concepts to suggest the Bible wrong –like the big bang (which, I understand is on its last legs) due to inconsistencies in the model.
Clearly you don't know what "the Big Bang" is. Where on earth are you getting that it's on it's last legs? We have direct, observable, objective evidence that the Big Bang happened. It's called "background microwave radiation" - look it up.
Similarly theoretical constructs like dark matter and dark energy had to be “invented” to try and explain matters inconsistent with existing theories and observations. Science has its limitations and is a wonderful field of study for those interested in real science – whether they are Christian or not. There is however a dark cloud hanging over science in the form of proven fraud and deception- rather suggesting that if you had to look for myth and smoke and mirrors, modern science seems to be a good candidate.
No argument with the above. Absolutely. Scientists are human. Humans aren't always honest.

Your writing of dark matter is a bit naive, though. The physics equations that predict observable phenomena around us very well actually require dark whatever. So it's not like they were just made up - they're predicted by our physics. I'm not a physicist, though, you'd have to take this up with Polymath.
So in essence, real findings (and not speculation and theories) consistently prove the Bible right whereas science seems to have some difficulty in maintaining its status as a discipline of integrity.
Totally and utterly false. This is just your religious belief speaking - doing whatever it can to support your continued belief.
Sorry to ask this, but can you please briefly outline your "proof" that Israelites in Egypt is a myth, as well as the proof that exodus never happened. Not conjecture, but proof.
Didn't I already link to archaeology articles?

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