Why Atheism Will Replace Religion

Why Atheism Will Replace Religion

There are 14715 comments on the News24 story from Aug 27, 2012, titled Why Atheism Will Replace Religion. In it, News24 reports that:

Please note that for this article "Atheism" also includes agnostics, deists, pagans, wiccans... in other words non-religious.

You will notice this is a statement of fact. And to be fact it is supported by evidence (see references below). Now you can have "faith" that this is not true, but by the very definition of faith, that is just wishful thinking.

Join the discussion below, or Read more at News24.

“Think&Care”

Since: Oct 07

Location hidden

#13117 Jul 10, 2013
ezdzit wrote:
Yet as natural as this way of thinking is, you will not find it reflected in science. The equations of physics do not tell us which events are occurring right now—they are like a map without the “you are here” symbol. The present moment does not exist in them, and therefore neither does the flow of time. Additionally, Albert Einstein’s theories of relativity suggest not only that there is no single special present but also that all moments are equally real [see “That Mysterious Flow,” by Paul Davies; Scientific American, September 2002]. Fundamentally, the future is no more open than the past.
First of all, Scientific American is not nearly the quality science magazine it once was. While it once had articles written by the actual scientists and was directed to giving accurate information, it is now a popular science magazine that is written primarily by journalists. In the goal to make money, it destroyed itself.

More to the point. In modern physics, space and time together become part of the dynamic geometry of the universe. Both space and time are affected by and affect matter and energy, so they become real quantities that have to be addressed. But, spacetime comes as a whole: all of space and all of time are together in this geometry. No 'right now', as your article says.

This does not mean that time is merely a construct of our minds. In fact, the evidence says that time and space are quite physical things that are crucial parts of our universe.

If you really want to continue this discussion, you should learn some actual physics. You will find that time is a fundamental part of our universe. Even those who think that space and time are emergent from other phenomena (suggested by the first part of your post), see time as a physical thing whose properties need to be explained.

“Think&Care”

Since: Oct 07

Location hidden

#13118 Jul 10, 2013
RHill wrote:
<quoted text>
Hmmmmmm. Okay. What does that have to do with the question of rather time is 'real' or merely a human concept? If they can 'quantize' it, it must be real, otherwise ... why bother. This article does not support your original contention ... quite the opposite. Are we not 'quantizing' time when we break it up into our own arbitrary units? I guess if something exists less than 10-44 seconds we can safely say that it never existed? Not sure I could go along with that. You, Polymath and SciAm work it out.
The problem is that for very short times and very small distances, quantum effects become significant. So, the quantum fluctuations can become large enough to produce small black holes. These are geometrical changes in spacetime. In other words, the geometry of spacetime is *also* governed by quantum effects. That is one of the arguments that *suggests* that time is quantized at the 10^{-43} second level.

The problem, as it is with many of these discussions, is that we do not have a fully quantum theory of gravity that can be tested. We now have several candidate theories, but they give different answers to basic questions and almost all the differences are way beyond our ability to measure.

Since: Mar 11

Louisville, KY

#13119 Jul 10, 2013
1: Beheading people has been a specialty of you people. The moment you label him an infidel he is marked for death.

2: You did not comment on questions asked of you because your Allah could not guide you to the answers.

3: Yes very few people in your country receive a proper education.

4: You continue to shame Islam with each and every post you make.
MUQ wrote:
Ans.

01. Branding people has been a specialty of you people. The moment you fix a label on him, all his arguments and thinking are put into dustbin.

02. I did not comment on your personal status, only on your thinking process.

03. You are right brother, very few people in Western Country receive any religious information.

What they receive is faulty information based on Bible and that is why they loose interest in what they get.

Media and work style, leave no room for "religion" in work place, this is another reason of people loosing contact with religion.

It is just a name and a few rituals and some annual feasts and celebrations (which have become too commercialized).

04. There is no hindrance on you gaining as much knowledge about the Universe as you can.

60 or 70 years are not sufficient to gather all the info out there, but one should gather as much as we can.

This info is good, but it should not sidetrack you from knowing what is actual purpose of your life!!

If you start with a right frame of mind, every thing in this Universe will bring you closer to your Merciful Creator, with wrong frame of mind the same info will take you away and away from your Creator.

It is only the matter of outlook, like positive and negatives of the same picture!!

We are not enemies, we have different purpose.

“Think&Care”

Since: Oct 07

Location hidden

#13120 Jul 10, 2013
ezdzit wrote:
<quoted text>
You said:
"....the duration from birth to death, or simply between intervals is denoted by the descriptor 'time'."
And you said it all right there in that sentence. Time is indeed a "discriptor". It's a communication tool like an adjective or adverb. It's a measuring tool like a yardstick or a sextant. It's a very useful tool, perhaps one of the most useful tools humans ever invented but it's usefulness doesn't change the fact that it's only a mental construct invented by humans. It doesn't exist outside the human mind.
You are confusing the measuring tool (clocks, saying 'one mississippi, two mississippi,...') with the thing being measured (time). The measuring tools are very useful *because* they measure something real: time.

“Blue Collar Philosopher”

Since: Nov 08

Texas, USA

#13121 Jul 10, 2013
MUQ wrote:
<quoted text>
Ans.
01. Branding people has been a specialty of you people. The moment you fix a label on him, all his arguments and thinking are put into dustbin.
02. I did not comment on your personal status, only on your thinking process.
03. You are right brother, very few people in Western Country receive any religious information.
What they receive is faulty information based on Bible and that is why they loose interest in what they get.
Media and work style, leave no room for "religion" in work place, this is another reason of people loosing contact with religion.
It is just a name and a few rituals and some annual feasts and celebrations (which have become too commercialized).
04. There is no hindrance on you gaining as much knowledge about the Universe as you can.
60 or 70 years are not sufficient to gather all the info out there, but one should gather as much as we can.
This info is good, but it should not sidetrack you from knowing what is actual purpose of your life!!
If you start with a right frame of mind, every thing in this Universe will bring you closer to your Merciful Creator, with wrong frame of mind the same info will take you away and away from your Creator.
It is only the matter of outlook, like positive and negatives of the same picture!!
We are not enemies, we have different purpose.
01 Well, we are here to discuss and share opinions. It is my opinion that Creationist opinions belong in the dustbin.

02 You brought the term 'boast' or 'boasting' into the equation, not I.

03 It is this fact (relatively moderate religious indoctrination) which has helped our civilization to flourish. It is logical to extrapolate that even less religion would result in even more flourishing.

04 A lifetime is not enough. About the time we start to get it figured out, old age addles our brains and tightens it's hands around our throats. It gives us the aspect of dottering fools and what wisdom we try to pass falls on deaf ears. Thus ignorance and superstition survives and reverberates down the generations.

We're making progress though. Barring some catastrophe, the Internet has made 'free thinking' accessible to (almost) the whole world. It has given a voice to those who, in olden times, would have remained forever muted. Pandora's box has been thrown open and it is full of knowledge. The world is intoxicated upon it and who knows where it's going to stop.

'Enemies' was too strong a word. We are and will remain adversarial as long as our relationship to a mythical "Creator" remains our yardstick for measuring each other. We need a new measuring stick like 'how much suffering can we ease'. In that, we all fall short.

“Blue Collar Philosopher”

Since: Nov 08

Texas, USA

#13122 Jul 10, 2013
polymath257 wrote:
<quoted text>
The problem is that for very short times and very small distances, quantum effects become significant. So, the quantum fluctuations can become large enough to produce small black holes. These are geometrical changes in spacetime. In other words, the geometry of spacetime is *also* governed by quantum effects. That is one of the arguments that *suggests* that time is quantized at the 10^{-43} second level.
The problem, as it is with many of these discussions, is that we do not have a fully quantum theory of gravity that can be tested. We now have several candidate theories, but they give different answers to basic questions and almost all the differences are way beyond our ability to measure.
Why do we feel compelled to 'quantize' everything? What could be more fluid or 'analog' than the flow of time or the curvature of space-time. Must everything be packetized to fit into a GUT?

Since: Jun 07

Location hidden

#13123 Jul 10, 2013
MUQ wrote:
<quoted text>
Ans.
01. Branding people has been a specialty of you people. The moment you fix a label on him, all his arguments and thinking are put into dustbin.
02. I did not comment on your personal status, only on your thinking process.
03. You are right brother, very few people in Western Country receive any religious information.
What they receive is faulty information based on Bible and that is why they loose interest in what they get.
Media and work style, leave no room for "religion" in work place, this is another reason of people loosing contact with religion.
It is just a name and a few rituals and some annual feasts and celebrations (which have become too commercialized).
04. There is no hindrance on you gaining as much knowledge about the Universe as you can.
60 or 70 years are not sufficient to gather all the info out there, but one should gather as much as we can.
This info is good, but it should not sidetrack you from knowing what is actual purpose of your life!!
If you start with a right frame of mind, every thing in this Universe will bring you closer to your Merciful Creator, with wrong frame of mind the same info will take you away and away from your Creator.
It is only the matter of outlook, like positive and negatives of the same picture!!
We are not enemies, we have different purpose.
Simple coward with no proof of god, who lies about god as much as he can to spread his fearful cult of ignorants

“Blue Collar Philosopher”

Since: Nov 08

Texas, USA

#13124 Jul 10, 2013
DNF wrote:
oops. my bad.
"Your posts remind me of trying find the clean end of a turd!" was directed at the haters, not all the people on this thread.
Well, that's a relief! BTW, there always seems to be a pointy end and a round end. Pretty easy to spot!

“Think&Care”

Since: Oct 07

Location hidden

#13126 Jul 10, 2013
RHill wrote:
<quoted text>
Why do we feel compelled to 'quantize' everything? What could be more fluid or 'analog' than the flow of time or the curvature of space-time. Must everything be packetized to fit into a GUT?
The easiest way to see the necessity in this situation is to imagine a particle in a superposition of two elementary states. We *know* this type of thing is possible and, in fact, it is done in the lab all the time.

But, masses produce gravity and gravity is a curvature of spacetime. So the gravity produced by a particle in a superposition will also be in a superposition of two states. That alone means that quantum effects are relevant.

Once we have that, the basic observables, like space and time, have to become quantum operators for consistency. But this means that the measured values of those observables (which are the eigenvalues of those operators) will be quantized.

Now, this is very general and there are several ways this reasoning could go wrong. But once you accept that particles are quantum objects, and once you see that they can affect space and time (this is gravity), then space and time also become quantum objects. So, even if they are not quantized (not discrete values), there is still the requirement to have them be quantum objects (described by non-commuting operators).

“Blue Collar Philosopher”

Since: Nov 08

Texas, USA

#13127 Jul 10, 2013
Lacez wrote:
<quoted text>
That is rather interesting, though we already feel that way with Zit because it's become so popular of a tell these days. Especially when someone is so hooked on a belief, they will not denounce it in any way.
I followed that link right back to some of the original stuff. It doesn't look like they've made much progress. Of course, once they 'went public' with their techniques they kind of invalidated themselves. I'm sure every Tom, Dick and Hairy criminal on the planet knows to say "I didn't do it" by now.

“Blue Collar Philosopher”

Since: Nov 08

Texas, USA

#13128 Jul 10, 2013
polymath257 wrote:
<quoted text>
The easiest way to see the necessity in this situation is to imagine a particle in a superposition of two elementary states. We *know* this type of thing is possible and, in fact, it is done in the lab all the time.
But, masses produce gravity and gravity is a curvature of spacetime. So the gravity produced by a particle in a superposition will also be in a superposition of two states. That alone means that quantum effects are relevant.
Once we have that, the basic observables, like space and time, have to become quantum operators for consistency. But this means that the measured values of those observables (which are the eigenvalues of those operators) will be quantized.
Now, this is very general and there are several ways this reasoning could go wrong. But once you accept that particles are quantum objects, and once you see that they can affect space and time (this is gravity), then space and time also become quantum objects. So, even if they are not quantized (not discrete values), there is still the requirement to have them be quantum objects (described by non-commuting operators).
Thanks! I can see that. You must be a very good teacher. Thank you for that as well! I was kind of visualizing it like how we 'digitize' everything to ease computation or make it compatible with the binary world of computers, like we've done with our music and video. Something is always lost in the process though. Purist Audiophiles still insist upon vinyl and vacuum tubes!

“Think&Care”

Since: Oct 07

Location hidden

#13129 Jul 10, 2013
RHill wrote:
<quoted text>
Thanks! I can see that. You must be a very good teacher. Thank you for that as well! I was kind of visualizing it like how we 'digitize' everything to ease computation or make it compatible with the binary world of computers, like we've done with our music and video. Something is always lost in the process though. Purist Audiophiles still insist upon vinyl and vacuum tubes!
One of the common misunderstandings about quantum mechanics is that 'quantized' means the same as 'having chunks of the same size'. As an example, the quantum states of the hydrogen atom are 'quantized' in the sense of only having very specific discrete values. But these values made up of things of the same size! In fact, the energy levels (in appropriate units) have values 1, 1/4, 1/9, 1/16,....

Now, with photons of a given frequency, the energy states are even placed: 1,2,3,4,.... But this does not happen in all quantum systems. In particular, even if time is quantized, it does not follow that there is a smallest unit of time.

“Think&Care”

Since: Oct 07

Location hidden

#13130 Jul 10, 2013
aaargh:...'these values *are not* made up'

“Citizen_Patriot_ Voter_Atheist!”

Since: May 09

Earth,TX

#13131 Jul 10, 2013
Lacez wrote:
<quoted text>
She won't say it.
It goes against her beliefs to reject that which she believes is right.
I've tried 5 times, I've tried to give her a chance to bring this whole argument to an end. Yet she has proven she does not want to stop being called a pedophile. Probably because she is one.
That would be my take on it too, still by trying you are outing the hiprocrasy in her postings.
spudgun

Stoke-on-trent, UK

#13132 Jul 10, 2013
RHill wrote:
<quoted text>
Barring some catastrophe, the Internet has made 'free thinking' accessible to (almost) the whole world. It has given a voice to those who, in olden times, would have remained forever muted. Pandora's box has been thrown open and it is full of knowledge. The world is intoxicated upon it and who knows where it's going to stop.
Yes the internet can be a force for good, consigning myths and legends to the trash bin of history. At least in the developed world.

“Liberty & Justice For All”

Since: Aug 11

United States of America

#13133 Jul 10, 2013
polymath257 wrote:
<quoted text>
As all of your quotes say, we do not know. The reason we do not know? because the quantum of time, if it exists, is incredibly small, probably around 10^{-43} second. We have, at this point, no way to measure times this small.
That does not mean time is a figment of the mind. It means it is physical, but we do not fully understand it.
Einstein disagrees:

"Space and time are modes by which we think, not conditions under which we live." Time – the time that we know through clocks and calendars – was invented. Space and time are models by which we think, not conditions under which we live.”

Albert Einstein - Encyclopaedia Britannica

“Time has no independent existence apart from the order of events by which we measure it”.

Albert Einstein - Haper’s
Thinking

York, UK

#13134 Jul 10, 2013
Einstein also said there wasn't a beginning to the universe.

Looks like he wasn't always right, blubber.
ezdzit wrote:
<quoted text>
Einstein disagrees:
"Space and time are modes by which we think, not conditions under which we live." Time – the time that we know through clocks and calendars – was invented. Space and time are models by which we think, not conditions under which we live.”
Albert Einstein - Encyclopaedia Britannica
“Time has no independent existence apart from the order of events by which we measure it”.
Albert Einstein - Haper’s

“Liberty & Justice For All”

Since: Aug 11

United States of America

#13135 Jul 10, 2013
polymath257 wrote:
<quoted text>
First of all, Scientific American is not nearly the quality science magazine it once was. While it once had articles written by the actual scientists and was directed to giving accurate information, it is now a popular science magazine that is written primarily by journalists. In the goal to make money, it destroyed itself.
More to the point. In modern physics, space and time together become part of the dynamic geometry of the universe. Both space and time are affected by and affect matter and energy, so they become real quantities that have to be addressed. But, spacetime comes as a whole: all of space and all of time are together in this geometry. No 'right now', as your article says.
This does not mean that time is merely a construct of our minds. In fact, the evidence says that time and space are quite physical things that are crucial parts of our universe.
If you really want to continue this discussion, you should learn some actual physics. You will find that time is a fundamental part of our universe. Even those who think that space and time are emergent from other phenomena (suggested by the first part of your post), see time as a physical thing whose properties need to be explained.
Your belief that time is a real thing, a physical thing, and has some kind of independent existence outside the human mind is delusional, bubba. For you this belief is obviously a sacred cow. Evidently you're still stuck in the Newtonian concept of time that Einstein disproved decades ago.

Time is not physical, it has no physical or chemical properties and it’s not an invisible force like gravity. It doesn't act on or interact with anything. Time is just our mental perception of the rate at which the "now" changes and the rate of change of this "now" is neither constant nor fixed. Newton was brilliant but he was wrong about time.
Calypso17

Hempstead, NY

#13136 Jul 10, 2013
ezdzit wrote:
<quoted text>
Einstein disagrees:
"Space and time are modes by which we think, not conditions under which we live." Time – the time that we know through clocks and calendars – was invented. Space and time are models by which we think, not conditions under which we live.”
Albert Einstein - Encyclopaedia Britannica
“Time has no independent existence apart from the order of events by which we measure it”.
Albert Einstein - Haper’s
You are no Einstein, Mary.

Time is not a social construct, but religion is. If religion accompanies free will and helps teach peace and tolerance it can be a force for good in the world. If religion is adhered to as an absolute, it becomes rigid, pompous and oppressive, like you.

“There is no Truth in Faith”

Since: Dec 08

nowhere near a pound of $100's

#13137 Jul 10, 2013
ezdzit wrote:
<quoted text>
Your belief that time is a real thing, a physical thing, and has some kind of independent existence outside the human mind is delusional, bubba. For you this belief is obviously a sacred cow. Evidently you're still stuck in the Newtonian concept of time that Einstein disproved decades ago.
Time is not physical, it has no physical or chemical properties and it’s not an invisible force like gravity. It doesn't act on or interact with anything. Time is just our mental perception of the rate at which the "now" changes and the rate of change of this "now" is neither constant nor fixed. Newton was brilliant but he was wrong about time.
You like to quote Einstein a lot, yet you apparently disagree with his own notion that space time is made of four identical dimensions, one of them being time. Please explain if you can ..... I'll wait.

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