Richard Dawkins tweets on abortion: ‘any fetus is less human than an adult pig’

Mar 16, 2013 Full story: freerepublic.com 1,829

It would seem the pro-life movement has acquired an unlikely supporter. On Wednesday, Richard Dawkins, a vocal proponent of atheism and the author of The God Delusion, posted a provocative tweet about abortion: With respect to those meanings of "human" that are relevant to the morality of abortion, any fetus is less human than an adult pig.

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Since: Mar 11

Lexington, KY

#753 May 13, 2013
Bush years. And anyways they were going to keep him until casket time the unborn child was just a bonus frivolous charge at that point. Toss the raving fundies a bone.

Regardless there is a big difference between a psycho killing a pregnant woman and a woman aborting a potentially dangerous pregnancy an I think even your fatass could figure that out right?
Buck Crick wrote:
<quoted text>Tell that to Scott Peterson.

You can find him on death row.

He'll be thrilled.

(He was convicted of 2 counts of murder. Tell us the 2 human beings he murdered, would you?)

Since: Mar 11

Lexington, KY

#754 May 13, 2013
It is in the real world away from your buffet fatass.
Buck Crick wrote:
<quoted text>That's not the definition of atheism, Septic.

Get a clue.
Mike

United States

#755 May 13, 2013
Bitner wrote:
<quoted text>
You giving me GOOGLE? Seriously? Oh, go home, you're drunk.
The other poster and I have been debating law. They tried to use fetal homicide laws to say a fetus is a human being. I proved them wrong. No one said anything about "babies", and we most certainly weren't debating on the low level of GOOGLE definitions.
Do try to keep up.
What makes someone a human being/person then? If you think a short trip down the vaginal canal is somehow some transformational trip that makes someone a person it would seem somewhat strange to me.

Since: Mar 11

Lexington, KY

#756 May 13, 2013
So we leave the choice to the woman carrying the fetus.
Mike wrote:
<quoted text>What makes someone a human being/person then? If you think a short trip down the vaginal canal is somehow some transformational trip that makes someone a person it would seem somewhat strange to me.

Since: May 10

Location hidden

#757 May 13, 2013
Bitner wrote:
<quoted text>
1.I was referring to the story you quoted.
2.She was charged with attempted feticide because she is not allowed by law to perform an abortion, and she was charged with murder because the death occurred after birth. Which part of this are you having trouble understanding? I can only dumb it down so much.
3.Wrong. Both cases you are talking about were tried in CA, where the statutes say that murder is the unlawful killing of a human being OR a fetus. Guess what that means? It means that the fetus is not a human being. Deal with it.
4.It is for a foreign national, who has the right to be protected from crimes committed against them....murder being just one. For a citizen, it's the civil right to life. Again, only the born have civil rights.
When a fetus is killed, it's a fetus being killed.
Damn, you're not very bright.
Only the born have civil rights? That's not what the Constitution says. It says "persons" shall not be deprived of life.

Bitchner: "Both cases you are talking about were tried in CA, where the statutes say that murder is the unlawful killing of a human being OR a fetus. Guess what that means? It means that the fetus is not a human being."

Really? The state statute determines whether a fetus is a human being?

I'm so glad you think so.

ATTENTION AUDIENCE!

Watch what I am about to do to Bitchner.

Alabama* Ala. Code § 13A-6-1 (2006) defines "person," for the purpose of criminal homicide or assaults, to include an unborn child in utero at any stage of development...

Arkansas Ark. Stat. Ann.§ 5-1-102(13) defines "person," as used in § 5-10-101 through § 5-10-105, to include an unborn child of 12 weeks or more gestation.

Illinois* Ill. Rev. Stat. ch. 720 § 5/9-1.2,§ 5/9-2.1 and § 5/9-3.2 define intentional homicide of an unborn child, voluntary manslaughter of an unborn child, involuntary manslaughter and reckless homicide of an unborn child, respectively. The laws define "unborn child" as any individual of the human species from fertilization until birth.

Kansas* Kan. Stat. Ann.§ 21-5419 "Alexa's Law" defines "unborn child" as a living individual organism of the species Homo sapiens, in utero, at any stage of gestation from fertilization to birth. The law specifies that "person" and "human being" shall also mean an unborn child as used in Kan. Stat. Ann.§ 21-5401 through § 21-5406 and § 21-5413 which define murder in the first and second degrees, voluntary and involuntary manslaughter, battery, aggravated battery, capital murder and involuntary manslaughter while driving under the influence of alcohol or drugs.(2010 HB 2668)

Kentucky* Ky. Rev. Stat.§ 507A.010 et seq.(2004) define "unborn child" as a member of the species Homo sapiens in utero from conception onward, without regard to age, health or condition of dependency.

Louisiana* La. Rev. Stat. Ann.§ 14:2 (7),(11) defines "person" as a human being from the moment of fertilization and implantation and also includes a body of persons, whether incorporated or not. "Unborn child" means any individual of the human species from fertilization and implantation until birth.

Mississippi* Miss. Code Ann.§ 97-3-37 provides a list of the criminal offenses, including murder, homicide and assault, in which the definition of “human being” includes an unborn child at every stage of gestation from conception to live birth.

Ohio* Ohio Rev. Code Ann.§ 2903.01 et seq.(2002) define aggravated murder, murder, voluntary manslaughter, involuntary manslaughter, negligent homicide, aggravated vehicular homicide, aggravated vehicular assault, felonious assault, aggravated assault, assault and negligent assault. The law applies to a person, which includes an "unborn member of the species Homo sapiens, who is or was carried in the womb of another."

Oklahoma* Okla. Stat. Ann. tit. 21 § 691 (2006) defines unborn child as a human being.

On your own petard.

Now who's not so bright?

Since: May 10

Location hidden

#758 May 13, 2013
Bitner wrote:
<quoted text>
The other poster and I have been debating law.
Right. And you just lost unequivocally.

I let you babble on and on about how CA state statute proves a fetus is not a human being.

Then I showed you a shitload of states where a fetus is explicitly defined as a person and a human being.

Tied it up tight and put a bow on it for you.

Happy trails, smart guy.

Since: May 10

Location hidden

#759 May 13, 2013
Bitchner:
"Wrong. Both cases you are talking about were tried in CA, where the statutes say that murder is the unlawful killing of a human being OR a fetus. Guess what that means? It means that the fetus is not a human being. Deal with it."

OK. State statutes determine if a fetus is a human being. Got it.

South Dakota* S.D. Codified Laws Ann.§ 22-16-4 defines homicide as murder in the first degree to include the death of a person or any other human being, including an unborn child.

Tennessee* Tenn. Code Ann.§ 39-13-107 and § 39-13-214 were amended in 2012 by Tenn. Pub. Act, Chap. 1006 (HB 2517/SB 2412) to define "another," "individuals" and "another person" to include a human embryo or fetus at any stage of gestation in utero, when any such term refers to the victim of any act made criminal by the provisions of the law.

Texas* Tex. Penal Code Ann.§ 1.07 relates to the death of or injury to an unborn child and provides penalties. The law defines an individual as a human being who is alive, including an unborn child at every stage of gestation from fertilization until birth.

Utah * Utah Code Ann.§ 76-5-201 et seq. declares that a person commits criminal homicide if the person intentionally, knowingly, recklessly causes the death of another human being, including an unborn child at any stage of its development.

“Blessed Be”

Since: Jun 07

Location hidden

#760 May 13, 2013
Mike wrote:
<quoted text>
What makes someone a human being/person then? If you think a short trip down the vaginal canal is somehow some transformational trip that makes someone a person it would seem somewhat strange to me.
It's not the trip, it's the destination. Birth.

“Blessed Be”

Since: Jun 07

Location hidden

#761 May 13, 2013
Buck Crick wrote:
<quoted text>
"Only the born have civil rights?"

Yes.

"That's not what the Constitution says. It says "persons" shall not be deprived of life."

And nowhere does it say, indicate, or imply, that a fetus is a person. It speaks of citizens, defined IN the Constitution as "persons born or naturalized" in this country.

"Really? The state statute determines whether a fetus is a human being?"

Hey, YOU were the one trying to use the law to say a fetus is a human being. Too bad on you that the law says no such thing, and in fact clearly indicates the opposite.

"On your own petard."

Not even close, as I already acknowledged that for the purpose of those laws only.

Again, you ignore that the only two cases you could come up with where someone was charged with murder for killing a fetus, was in a state where the definition of murder is the unlawful killing of a human being OR a fetus. Which clearly indicates that the law does not consider the fetus to be a human being.

"Now who's not so bright?"

Still you.

“Blessed Be”

Since: Jun 07

Location hidden

#762 May 13, 2013
Buck Crick wrote:
<quoted text>
"Right. And you just lost unequivocally."

LOL, no I didn't. You did.

"I let you babble on and on about how CA state statute proves a fetus is not a human being."

The only two cases you could find were FROM CA. Where the laws clearly indicate that a fetus is not considered a human being.

"Then I showed you a shitload of states where a fetus is explicitly defined as a person and a human being."

And where are the cased FROM those states where someone was charged with murder for killing a fetus?

"Tied it up tight and put a bow on it for you."

You failure? Yes, you sure did.

"Happy trails, smart guy."

Not a guy. A smart woman.

“Blessed Be”

Since: Jun 07

Location hidden

#763 May 13, 2013
Buck Crick wrote:
Bitchner:
"Wrong. Both cases you are talking about were tried in CA, where the statutes say that murder is the unlawful killing of a human being OR a fetus. Guess what that means? It means that the fetus is not a human being. Deal with it."
OK. State statutes determine if a fetus is a human being. Got it.
South Dakota* S.D. Codified Laws Ann.§ 22-16-4 defines homicide as murder in the first degree to include the death of a person or any other human being, including an unborn child.
Tennessee* Tenn. Code Ann.§ 39-13-107 and § 39-13-214 were amended in 2012 by Tenn. Pub. Act, Chap. 1006 (HB 2517/SB 2412) to define "another," "individuals" and "another person" to include a human embryo or fetus at any stage of gestation in utero, when any such term refers to the victim of any act made criminal by the provisions of the law.
Texas* Tex. Penal Code Ann.§ 1.07 relates to the death of or injury to an unborn child and provides penalties. The law defines an individual as a human being who is alive, including an unborn child at every stage of gestation from fertilization until birth.
Utah * Utah Code Ann.§ 76-5-201 et seq. declares that a person commits criminal homicide if the person intentionally, knowingly, recklessly causes the death of another human being, including an unborn child at any stage of its development.
Again, where are the cases that show someone charged with murder for killing a fetus in these states?

See, I already know what the fetal homicide laws state. I also know that they don't exist in every state, that they don't grant a fetus civil rights, that many of them are worded the way they are because anti-choice politicians pandered to other anti-choicers, in a vain attempt to get at legal voluntary abortion, and that they ALL exclude legal voluntary abortion.

YOU are the one who tried to claim that the cases where someone was charged with murder meant that the law considered the fetus a human being. Yet the only two cases you could come up with, were in a state that does not. Murder there is defined as the unlawful killing of a human being OR a fetus. Or. You DO understand this word, correct?

Since: May 10

Location hidden

#764 May 13, 2013
Bitner wrote:
<quoted text>

Again, you ignore that the only two cases you could come up with where someone was charged with murder for killing a fetus, was in a state where the definition of murder is the unlawful killing of a human being OR a fetus. Which clearly indicates that the law does not consider the fetus to be a human being.
"Now who's not so bright?"
Still you.
GUNTERSVILLE, Alabama (AP)— "Marshall County jurors have convicted a man of capital murder in the slaying of his wife and her unborn child at a car wash three years ago.
The trial of Jessie Phillips was believed to be the first test of a state law that allows a person suspected of killing a pregnant woman to be charged with two murders if the fetus also dies."

http://blog.al.com/wire/2012/06/marshall_coun...

Alabama* Ala. Code § 13A-6-1 (2006) defines "person," for the purpose of criminal homicide or assaults, to include an unborn child in utero at any stage of development
----------

Only born persons have civil rights?

You lost, more clearly and unequivocally losing than any argument has been lost on these pages since I've been here.

You are stupidly stubborn in trying to pretend the 5th Amendment doesn't exist.

That's the Constitutional battleground where abortion has been fought.

It's disappointing. For a brief moment I thought I had a worthy adversary.

I'll search on.

Since: May 10

Location hidden

#765 May 13, 2013
Bitner wrote:
<quoted text>
"Right. And you just lost unequivocally."
LOL, no I didn't. You did.
"I let you babble on and on about how CA state statute proves a fetus is not a human being."
The only two cases you could find were FROM CA. Where the laws clearly indicate that a fetus is not considered a human being.
"Then I showed you a shitload of states where a fetus is explicitly defined as a person and a human being."
And where are the cased FROM those states where someone was charged with murder for killing a fetus?
"Tied it up tight and put a bow on it for you."
You failure? Yes, you sure did.
"Happy trails, smart guy."
Not a guy. A smart woman.
I should have known.

Your name being "Bitchner".

“I Am No One Else”

Since: Apr 12

Seattle

#766 May 13, 2013
Buck Crick wrote:
<quoted text>
The law makes decisions for other people every day.
You violate the law, and penalties accrue. Some severe.
But generally the law does not let YOU make the decision of whether another human being lives or dies.
That is the decision you support - death of another human being.
You can attempt to disguise it with all the euphemisms of "choice" and "reproductive rights" you want, but it remains, staring you in the face.
The law does not make decisions for other people, it is there to protect citizens. But good point, since a fetus is not a citizen then the law should not intervene at all.

Since: May 10

Location hidden

#767 May 13, 2013
Bitner wrote:
<quoted text>

Yet the only two cases you could come up with, were in a state that does not. Murder there is defined as the unlawful killing of a human being OR a fetus. Or. You DO understand this word, correct?
GUNTERSVILLE, Alabama (AP)— "Marshall County jurors have convicted a man of capital murder in the slaying of his wife and her unborn child at a car wash three years ago.
The trial of Jessie Phillips was believed to be the first test of a state law that allows a person suspected of killing a pregnant woman to be charged with two murders if the fetus also dies."

http://blog.al.com/wire/2012/06/marshall_coun ...

"A man in Ohio who tried to force his pregnant girlfriend to have a late-term abortion has pleaded guilty to attempted murder of his unborn child under Ohio’s fetal homicide law. The man even forced his pregnant girlfriend to the abortion clinic at gunpoint."

http://liveaction.org/blog/fetal-homicide-law...

Dallas man convicted of murder in killing of fetus
Published: Sunday, February 06, 2005

DALLAS (AP)- A Dallas man found guilty in the gang-related shooting death of a pregnant woman became the first Texan convicted under the state's law protecting the unborn.

Emmanuel Rogers, 21, was convicted of capital murder Friday in the December 2003 deaths of Virginia Ramirez and her 9-week-old fetus
http://lubbockonline.com/stories/020605/sta_0...

Texas* Tex. Penal Code Ann.§ 1.07 relates to the death of or injury to an unborn child and provides penalties. The law defines an individual as a human being who is alive, including an unborn child at every stage of gestation from fertilization until birth.

__________

How many times do you wish to lose?

“Blessed Be”

Since: Jun 07

Location hidden

#768 May 13, 2013
Buck Crick wrote:
<quoted text>
"GUNTERSVILLE, Alabama (AP)— "Marshall County jurors have convicted a man of capital murder in the slaying of his wife and her unborn child at a car wash three years ago.
The trial of Jessie Phillips was believed to be the first test of a state law that allows a person suspected of killing a pregnant woman to be charged with two murders if the fetus also dies."
http://blog.al.com/wire/2012/06/marshall_coun...
Alabama* Ala. Code § 13A-6-1 (2006) defines "person," for the purpose of criminal homicide or assaults, to include an unborn child in utero at any stage of development"

Oh, you're doing some actual research. Good for you. Did you read the whole statute? I'm betting you did not. It's as I said in one of my previous posts. The definitions are for the purposes of that one law, they exclude abortion (and interestingly in this case ANY death of a fetus when it comes about by something a doctor does in relation to the pregnant woman), and don't grant any civil rights to the fetus.

So, we have one state that defines a fetus as a human being for the purpose of one law, and another that says it's not, for a broader definition of murder, not just fetal homicide laws.

You're actually making my point that the phrase "human being" is a matter of opinion.

----------
"Only born persons have civil rights?"

Yes, and you have yet to prove otherwise.

"You lost, more clearly and unequivocally losing than any argument has been lost on these pages since I've been here."

LOL, nonsense.

"You are stupidly stubborn in trying to pretend the 5th Amendment doesn't exist."

I haven't said anything about the 5th Amendment at all. Why do you lie? YOU have to prove that THE CONSTITUTION says a fetus is a person. Sorry, but fetal homicide laws don't cut it.

"That's the Constitutional battleground where abortion has been fought."

Again, nonsense.

"It's disappointing. For a brief moment I thought I had a worthy adversary.
I'll search on."

Whatever you have to tell yourself to soothe your wounded pride over being bested by a woman.

Carry on.

Since: Mar 11

Lexington, KY

#769 May 13, 2013
Which they don't so it all works out.
KittenKoder wrote:
<quoted text>The law does not make decisions for other people, it is there to protect citizens. But good point, since a fetus is not a citizen then the law should not intervene at all.

“Blessed Be”

Since: Jun 07

Location hidden

#770 May 13, 2013
Buck Crick wrote:
<quoted text>
I should have known.
Your name being "Bitchner".
Aw, nothing but ad homs now, huh?

Yes, your male ego has been wounded.

Poor little boy.

Since: May 10

Location hidden

#771 May 13, 2013
Bitner wrote:
<quoted text>
Again, where are the cases that show someone charged with murder for killing a fetus in these states?
See, I already know what the fetal homicide laws state. I also know that they don't exist in every state, that they don't grant a fetus civil rights, that many of them are worded the way they are because anti-choice politicians pandered to other anti-choicers, in a vain attempt to get at legal voluntary abortion, and that they ALL exclude legal voluntary abortion.
YOU are the one who tried to claim that the cases where someone was charged with murder meant that the law considered the fetus a human being. Yet the only two cases you could come up with, were in a state that does not. Murder there is defined as the unlawful killing of a human being OR a fetus. Or. You DO understand this word, correct?
It's not every day a washed up drunk ballplayer gets to put a bitchy woman lawyer in her place.

Much obliged.

Since: May 10

Location hidden

#772 May 13, 2013
Bitner wrote:
<quoted text>
"GUNTERSVILLE, Alabama (AP)— "Marshall County jurors have convicted a man of capital murder in the slaying of his wife and her unborn child at a car wash three years ago.
The trial of Jessie Phillips was believed to be the first test of a state law that allows a person suspected of killing a pregnant woman to be charged with two murders if the fetus also dies."
http://blog.al.com/wire/2012/06/marshall_coun...
Alabama* Ala. Code § 13A-6-1 (2006) defines "person," for the purpose of criminal homicide or assaults, to include an unborn child in utero at any stage of development"
Oh, you're doing some actual research. Good for you. Did you read the whole statute? I'm betting you did not. It's as I said in one of my previous posts. The definitions are for the purposes of that one law, they exclude abortion (and interestingly in this case ANY death of a fetus when it comes about by something a doctor does in relation to the pregnant woman), and don't grant any civil rights to the fetus.
So, we have one state that defines a fetus as a human being for the purpose of one law, and another that says it's not, for a broader definition of murder, not just fetal homicide laws.
You're actually making my point that the phrase "human being" is a matter of opinion.
----------
"Only born persons have civil rights?"
Yes, and you have yet to prove otherwise.
"You lost, more clearly and unequivocally losing than any argument has been lost on these pages since I've been here."
LOL, nonsense.
"You are stupidly stubborn in trying to pretend the 5th Amendment doesn't exist."
I haven't said anything about the 5th Amendment at all. Why do you lie? YOU have to prove that THE CONSTITUTION says a fetus is a person. Sorry, but fetal homicide laws don't cut it.
"That's the Constitutional battleground where abortion has been fought."
Again, nonsense.
"It's disappointing. For a brief moment I thought I had a worthy adversary.
I'll search on."
Whatever you have to tell yourself to soothe your wounded pride over being bested by a woman.
Carry on.
Not to belabor this ass-kicking you're taking, but you shifted your goalposts again.

You did not originally argue that "human being" was a matter of opinion, Counselor.

What you argued was that a fetus is not a human being, and not considered a human being by law. You argued that "human being" was not even a matter of law, but of philosophy and religion. You argued that a state statute representing murder as against "a human being OR a fetus" means that a fetus is not a human being.

Didn't pan out for you, did it?

Another thing that strikes me as funny - I accuse you of ignoring the 5th Amendment, and your response is that you didn't say anything about it.

Did your Daddy buy your way into law school?

I didn't get to go to law school, but I know more about it than you. My Daddy didn't give me anything but lessons in how to fight. He was a professional boxer and wrestler. Fought Joe Louis.

Besides, I was a felon.

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