“Leave That Thing Alone!”

Since: Nov 07

Location hidden

#1852 May 28, 2013
Bob of Quantum-Faith wrote:
<quoted text>
Oh, they do!
Have you ever been to a Pink Floyd concert?
<laughing>
first time was June 1977... County Stadium... Milwaukee, WI

Since: May 10

Location hidden

#1853 May 28, 2013
polymath257 wrote:
<quoted text>
Observation is not the same thing as seeing. You are describing seeing, not observation.
I am describing observation.

You are describing somethin else and calling it observation.

“ IT'S A CHOICE !!!”

Since: Jun 12

Location hidden

#1854 May 28, 2013
[QUOTE who="KJV
"]<quoted text>
You're kidding right?
You're not really going to try and go down that road? ROTFLOL!!!
"You can't see a flower only the light bouncing off a flower". Really!!!!
"You can't smell a flower only odor leaving the flower"
"You can't touch a flower because mathematically you can always cut the distances between you and the flower in half, "infinitely" so actual contact is impossible" [/QUOTE]

God's mathematical Sunflower... It wasn't by chance.

Just looking at a sunflower, we can tell that the sunflower was carefully designed by a wise Creator. Math, however, allows us to see God’s design to a new level, revealing the care God took with each aspect of His creation.

The seeds in all sunflowers—be they large or small—are arranged according to two patterns. When we use math to examine these patterns, we observe that, no matter how many seeds the sunflower contains, the patterns always relate to each other according to the exact same mathematical proportion. It turns out that that precise proportion enables the most amount of seeds to fit in any given sunflower. What a wise & caring Creator!

We can trust Him to take care of the smallest details of our lives.

“Wherefore, if God so clothe the grass of the field, which to day is, and to morrow is cast into the oven, shall he not much more clothe you, O ye of little faith?” Matthew 6:30 (KJV)

*Thought you might find this interesting...:)
Have a nice day...

“ IT'S A CHOICE !!!”

Since: Jun 12

Location hidden

#1855 May 28, 2013
susanblange wrote:
<quoted text>I have seen the same psychiatrist for 36 years and have the best of care, I am also a famous case history. My doctor is Elijah, is Jewish, and he believes in me. I'm not as crazy as I seem but none the less I AM. Psalm 38:7 "For my loins are filled with a loathsome disease and there is no soundness in my flesh".
You don't need counceling if you have Jesus in your heart! You could have saved yourself a lot of money... just sayin'

...and wouldn't you be a 'famous case study?'

Have a nice day!
spudgun

Stoke-on-trent, UK

#1856 May 28, 2013
Snevaeh legna wrote:
<quoted text>
God's mathematical Sunflower... It wasn't by chance.
Sunflowers are pretty, I agree. But this does not prove design, or if there was a designer if it is was one or many gods.

Also with all the human and animal suffering in the world, any designer will be less than perfect and less than loving. If you consider the amoral nature of the universe and the way the universe operates in reality, what kind of designer is there?

You then end up quoting Matthew's gospel. The Bible has been totally discredied on this forum. As we know the gospels are contradictory and were written decades after the events, by Greek Christians remote from events with only very sketchy knowledge on the supposed life of Jesus.

So even if there was a designer, we cannot assume it was the Christian God(s) doing the designing.

“ IT'S A CHOICE !!!”

Since: Jun 12

Location hidden

#1857 May 28, 2013
spudgun wrote:
<quoted text>
Sunflowers are pretty, I agree. But this does not prove design, or if there was a designer if it is was one or many gods.
Also with all the human and animal suffering in the world, any designer will be less than perfect and less than loving. If you consider the amoral nature of the universe and the way the universe operates in reality, what kind of designer is there?
You then end up quoting Matthew's gospel. The Bible has been totally discredied on this forum. As we know the gospels are contradictory and were written decades after the events, by Greek Christians remote from events with only very sketchy knowledge on the supposed life of Jesus.
So even if there was a designer, we cannot assume it was the Christian God(s) doing the designing.
Thank you for your reply...Points to ponder, as I'm always open to the other side...:)

“ IT'S A CHOICE !!!”

Since: Jun 12

Location hidden

#1858 May 28, 2013
spudgun wrote:
<quoted text>
Sunflowers are pretty, I agree. But this does not prove design, or if there was a designer if it is was one or many gods.
Also with all the human and animal suffering in the world, any designer will be less than perfect and less than loving. If you consider the amoral nature of the universe and the way the universe operates in reality, what kind of designer is there?
You then end up quoting Matthew's gospel. The Bible has been totally discredied on this forum. As we know the gospels are contradictory and were written decades after the events, by Greek Christians remote from events with only very sketchy knowledge on the supposed life of Jesus.
So even if there was a designer, we cannot assume it was the Christian God(s) doing the designing.
Yes, they are a beautiful flower!. There are six staring at me when I do downstirs to get my coffee in the morning... Lol (outside my kitchen window):)

“ IT'S A CHOICE !!!”

Since: Jun 12

Location hidden

#1859 May 28, 2013
typo - stirs-stairs...

Since: May 13

Hightstown, NJ

#1860 May 28, 2013
spudgun wrote:
<quoted text>
Sunflowers are pretty, I agree. But this does not prove design, or if there was a designer if it is was one or many gods.
Also with all the human and animal suffering in the world, any designer will be less than perfect and less than loving. If you consider the amoral nature of the universe and the way the universe operates in reality, what kind of designer is there?
You then end up quoting Matthew's gospel. The Bible has been totally discredied on this forum. As we know the gospels are contradictory and were written decades after the events, by Greek Christians remote from events with only very sketchy knowledge on the supposed life of Jesus.
So even if there was a designer, we cannot assume it was the Christian God(s) doing the designing.
pardon me for jumping in, but i really liked your comment. youhave two points, both of which i want to discuss, because they are very reasonable.

1: animal/human suffering is evidence that there is no designer.

well, i would compare that to my computer. my computer sucks, and yes, it causes me much suffering. lol but that doesnt mean that it wasnt designed. speaking from a biblical worldview, the bible acknowledges the flawedness of the world, and that the world suffers in wait for redemption. but back to design, one cannot assess whether design is optimal or not until you have solid grasp of what optimal is. for example, my eyes are not at the optimalfunctioning level, and i know that because the standard vision is 20/20, and mine is garbage. lol

o another point, i think that the vast majority of things in this world are amoralas well, but the fact that we have amoral factors in this world does not mean that the designer isnt benevolent. i can make something and give it to someone with love, but if i dont include the love, the fact that i designed it still stands. so wat our discussion shifts to is not what the design is like, to can we know if the world is designed or not. i think thats a more fruitful discussion.

2:the bible is discredited by reason of various arguments against it.

this one is a big one, because i dont have enough room to split it into subpoints. so lets get to this seperately. which part of that do you want to discuss first?
havent forgotten

Lamoni, IA

#1861 May 28, 2013
Snevaeh legna wrote:
<quoted text>
Yes, they are a beautiful flower!. There are six staring at me when I do downstirs to get my coffee in the morning... Lol (outside my kitchen window):)
that was at the top of this page, and thank you for quoting the long comment from a previous page. I think his comment was very wise.

But yours was nice too, in reply. No matter how much I despise the world for the pain it contains, I also love it for its beauty.
It is a mixed place, and you are right at least to love to look at beauty, whatever your beliefs are.
havent forgotten

Lamoni, IA

#1862 May 28, 2013
Ray puelerico wrote:
<quoted text>
pardon me for jumping in, but i really liked your comment. youhave two points, both of which i want to discuss, because they are very reasonable.
1: animal/human suffering is evidence that there is no designer.
well, i would compare that to my computer. my computer sucks, and yes, it causes me much suffering. lol but that doesnt mean that it wasnt designed. speaking from a biblical worldview, the bible acknowledges the flawedness of the world, and that the world suffers in wait for redemption. but back to design, one cannot assess whether design is optimal or not until you have solid grasp of what optimal is. for example, my eyes are not at the optimalfunctioning level, and i know that because the standard vision is 20/20, and mine is garbage. lol
o another point, i think that the vast majority of things in this world are amoralas well, but the fact that we have amoral factors in this world does not mean that the designer isnt benevolent. i can make something and give it to someone with love, but if i dont include the love, the fact that i designed it still stands. so wat our discussion shifts to is not what the design is like, to can we know if the world is designed or not. i think thats a more fruitful discussion.
2:the bible is discredited by reason of various arguments against it.
this one is a big one, because i dont have enough room to split it into subpoints. so lets get to this seperately. which part of that do you want to discuss first?
at 1860 you quote the same comment I liked. I agree with you that the existence of pain and suffering is not disproof of a Designer or Creator - only proof that it is a somewhat nasty character if he could have done better. If he could not have done better (it becomes a he, if you discuss this in typical /biblical context), then obviously it is not allpowerful, and must contend with lots of factors that downgraded his achievement morally as well as in other respects.

It is certainly not a worthy God to be worshipped if it is very powerful. and not a strong enough god to be trusted to help make things turn out alright, if this was all the good it could do in comparison to the bad things - carnivore, pain, death, grief, etc.

I feel very certain there could not be an allpowerfulallgood God.
Are you admitting that the God you think exists is not all powerful? or not all good? or both?

I do not follow your reasoning when you try to make excuses for the mess.
Have you read the Rubaiyat of Omar Khayyam? The discussion among the pots on the potting shed? One pot says: "They laugh at me for learning all awry, what! did then the hand of the potter shake" and another says, "all this talk of heaven and hell, pish, he's a good fellow and shall all be well" what would you say about the potter if you were one of the pots - to continue the metaphor?
havent forgotten

Lamoni, IA

#1863 May 28, 2013
spudgun wrote:
<quoted text>
Sunflowers are pretty, I agree. But this does not prove design, or if there was a designer if it is was one or many gods.
Also with all the human and animal suffering in the world, any designer will be less than perfect and less than loving. If you consider the amoral nature of the universe and the way the universe operates in reality, what kind of designer is there?
You then end up quoting Matthew's gospel. The Bible has been totally discredied on this forum. As we know the gospels are contradictory and were written decades after the events, by Greek Christians remote from events with only very sketchy knowledge on the supposed life of Jesus.
So even if there was a designer, we cannot assume it was the Christian God(s) doing the designing.
agreed with most of this. I must say that the Christian God is about as nasty as the universe is, however! they are a rather good match.

I am an agnostic atheist, and do not claim to know that there is no God -other than the one definition which I find impossible because of pain: the allgoodallpowerful God. And I know this viscerally, ethically, with my body and my feelings, and my mind concurs because of what I think I know about the pain of others, and because my mind seems to think it knows things about ethics, when it does not assert that knows things about theology, which is an argument about the nature of knowing intellectually, where agnosticism is more appropriate, I think. Sorry about the runon sentence, but I am agreeing with your main point, and trying to give a very personal reaction which is complex.

I wrote replies to two of the people who replied to you, and thanked them for quoting the comment I just quoted above.

We could find ways to express this differently in words, or in reasoning, but I think it boils down to having a kind heart, full of hurt in seeing the suffering of other living beings. As wonderful as good minds are, unless one has compassion, the mental arguments can get - stale (if you understand what I mean, as if there is no nourishment for the whole self in arguments without moral content rooted in one's own good will and good intent). So I
liked your comment very much for its intent as well as content.

Since: May 13

Hightstown, NJ

#1864 May 28, 2013
havent forgotten wrote:
<quoted text> at 1860 you quote the same comment I liked. I agree with you that the existence of pain and suffering is not disproof of a Designer or Creator - only proof that it is a somewhat nasty character if he could have done better. If he could not have done better (it becomes a he, if you discuss this in typical /biblical context), then obviously it is not allpowerful, and must contend with lots of factors that downgraded his achievement morally as well as in other respects.
It is certainly not a worthy God to be worshipped if it is very powerful. and not a strong enough god to be trusted to help make things turn out alright, if this was all the good it could do in comparison to the bad things - carnivore, pain, death, grief, etc.
I feel very certain there could not be an allpowerfulallgood God.
Are you admitting that the God you think exists is not all powerful? or not all good? or both?
I do not follow your reasoning when you try to make excuses for the mess.
Have you read the Rubaiyat of Omar Khayyam? The discussion among the pots on the potting shed? One pot says: "They laugh at me for learning all awry, what! did then the hand of the potter shake" and another says, "all this talk of heaven and hell, pish, he's a good fellow and shall all be well" what would you say about the potter if you were one of the pots - to continue the metaphor?
i was more focused on kind of seperating the two factors of design and suffering. trying to make the lines a bit clearer so to speak. so in doing this i want to present the point on the suffering.

when we look at this world, we know that its messed up. from a christian world view, we acknoledge that its messed up. so lets look at it like this.

1.God can do everything that it is logially possible to do.

2.God created human beings with free will

3.human beings with free will cannot be made to do good, they must choose it.

4.therefor it is possible for God to be all powerful and for evil to still exist given free will.

now lets go over to natural pain and suffering.(biblical view)

1. God created this earth to human beings to inhabit (biblical worldview)

2.the activities of this world reflect the fallenness of man (excluding things that happen due to planetary processes for the world to continue to exist)

3. therefor the natural suffering in the world, although devestating, does not indicate that God is evil, but given a christian world view, we should expect certian things to go wrong.

i can say more on that, but i want to get to your metaphor, because its a question ive often asked myself. im hypoglycemic, and ive struggled with the level of huypoglycemia i have. it makes me very sick at time. as a person who has personally worked with clay, i can say that there is only so much you can do with damaged clay. given a biblical view, when sin entered the world, we asked God to step back. but the world continued to go on the way it always has. so its like a machine without the mechanic. its bound to wear down. im saying this from a biblical view mind you, i dont assume this is a point of common agreement between us. you have a valid point in the emotional realm, trust me, ive felt that myself. but logically theres no real incompatability between Gods power and the evil in the world, unless you add other presuppositions or premises.

3.
susanblange

Norfolk, VA

#1865 May 28, 2013
Snevaeh legna wrote:
<quoted text>
You don't need counceling if you have Jesus in your heart! You could have saved yourself a lot of money... just sayin'
...and wouldn't you be a 'famous case study?'
Have a nice day!
My care is actually free. I love him and he loves me. And I know you're going to say I got my moneys worth so don't say it. Elijah and I are a team and he will be my closest advisor. He is also called "Messiah" which means "anointed one" and he will also be literally anointed. Zechariah 4:14 "...these are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth".
havent forgotten

Lamoni, IA

#1866 May 28, 2013
Ray puelerico wrote:
<quoted text>
i was more focused on kind of seperating the two factors of design and suffering. trying to make the lines a bit clearer so to speak. so in doing this i want to present the point on the suffering.
when we look at this world, we know that its messed up. from a christian world view, we acknoledge that its messed up. so lets look at it like this.
1.God can do everything that it is logially possible to do.
2.God created human beings with free will
3.human beings with free will cannot be made to do good, they must choose it.
4.therefor it is possible for God to be all powerful and for evil to still exist given free will.
now lets go over to natural pain and suffering.(biblical view)
1. God created this earth to human beings to inhabit (biblical worldview)
2.the activities of this world reflect the fallenness of man (excluding things that happen due to planetary processes for the world to continue to exist)
3. therefor the natural suffering in the world, although devestating, does not indicate that God is evil, but given a christian world view, we should expect certian things to go wrong.
i can say more on that, but i want to get to your metaphor, because its a question ive often asked myself. im hypoglycemic, and ive struggled with the level of huypoglycemia i have. it makes me very sick at time. as a person who has personally worked with clay, i can say that there is only so much you can do with damaged clay. given a biblical view, when sin entered the world, we asked God to step back. but the world continued to go on the way it always has. so its like a machine without the mechanic. its bound to wear down. im saying this from a biblical view mind you, i dont assume this is a point of common agreement between us. you have a valid point in the emotional realm, trust me, ive felt that myself. but logically theres no real incompatability between Gods power and the evil in the world, unless you add other presuppositions or premises.
3.
no I subtract lots of your premises and do not accept them as morally or intellectually correct. I am sorry about your suffering however, and can see how you could find religion a form of consolation if you have all the needed beliefs, including belief in a happy afterlife for believers, I assume. I wrote a reply to you on another thread about this. You are difficult to reply to because you do not seem to be a mean-spirited person, and one is sorry that you are ill, but I disagree strongly with you on many points. I do so without hostility to you personally. Unless you live in Oklahoma and support Inhofe.

Since: May 13

Hightstown, NJ

#1867 May 28, 2013
havent forgotten wrote:
<quoted text> no I subtract lots of your premises and do not accept them as morally or intellectually correct. I am sorry about your suffering however, and can see how you could find religion a form of consolation if you have all the needed beliefs, including belief in a happy afterlife for believers, I assume. I wrote a reply to you on another thread about this. You are difficult to reply to because you do not seem to be a mean-spirited person, and one is sorry that you are ill, but I disagree strongly with you on many points. I do so without hostility to you personally. Unless you live in Oklahoma and support Inhofe.
i really appreciate your kindness. trust me, i dont take offence easily lol. you have replied to me with a lot of respect, and im really greatful for that. dont worry about responding vigorously though, im very understandng and dont mind being called wrong. lol as for me, i started to believe in God first because i heard the argument that reason doesnt make sense without God. it was fairly perswasive in the sense that i was thinking about that on my own but in a different way. but anyways, which premises did you find wrong? and ill try to keep up with the responses, im still getting used to this forum lol.
havent forgotten

Lamoni, IA

#1868 May 28, 2013
Ray puelerico wrote:
<quoted text>
i really appreciate your kindness. trust me, i dont take offence easily lol. you have replied to me with a lot of respect, and im really greatful for that. dont worry about responding vigorously though, im very understandng and dont mind being called wrong. lol as for me, i started to believe in God first because i heard the argument that reason doesnt make sense without God. it was fairly perswasive in the sense that i was thinking about that on my own but in a different way. but anyways, which premises did you find wrong? and ill try to keep up with the responses, im still getting used to this forum lol.
I do not accept the premise of free will. I do not accept the notion that free will resulting in pain is a good thing anyhow, or a fair thing, since the pain is often suffered by innocents and not by the person doing the action.
I do not think that a God could be good if it gave free will and punished anyone other than the bad actor with pain resulting from some choice, and I do not think that a God could be good if he created mankind without the understanding of the consequences of his actions, or without a motivation to do no harm.

“ IT'S A CHOICE !!!”

Since: Jun 12

Location hidden

#1869 May 28, 2013
havent forgotten wrote:
<quoted text> that was at the top of this page, and thank you for quoting the long comment from a previous page. I think his comment was very wise.
But yours was nice too, in reply. No matter how much I despise the world for the pain it contains, I also love it for its beauty.
It is a mixed place, and you are right at least to love to look at beauty, whatever your beliefs are.
Yes, Thank you for the kind words... If one were to stop and look around, there is much beauty to take in... Some 'sunsets' are quite breath taking...

http://spd.fotolog.com/photo/61/56/22/neck_ra...

Have a nice day!)

I

Since: May 13

Hightstown, NJ

#1870 May 28, 2013
havent forgotten wrote:
<quoted text> I do not accept the premise of free will. I do not accept the notion that free will resulting in pain is a good thing anyhow, or a fair thing, since the pain is often suffered by innocents and not by the person doing the action.
I do not think that a God could be good if it gave free will and punished anyone other than the bad actor with pain resulting from some choice, and I do not think that a God could be good if he created mankind without the understanding of the consequences of his actions, or without a motivation to do no harm.
ok, so im getting a better feel for what your saying, but if i missunderstand you at any point just correct me.

premise one: free will

i hold to free will because without it, people are not able to be held morrally acountable for their actions. take for example me standing. if someone pushes me and i bump into you, im not morally responsible for that action. i can only be held accountable for pushing you if i chose to do so by my actions. thats why i think free will is so vital to the discussion.

premise 2: pain is good in any way shpe or form

that kind of isnt my presupposition. i probably didnt word that carefully, so im sorry for the mix up. pain is a terrible thing, but the outcome of said pain can produce good. but i do agre with you, pain isnt good in and of itself. unless you lft weights, then pain is gain lol.

premise 3: the end result of pain.

i basically put the other premises into one last comment cause i think they relate. more often than not im not quick to take an event and say that this is God punishing something. i think that when it comes to this, we have a lot of consequenses for actions in this world just by the nature of the things we do. i agree that it wouldnt be fair for God to punish anyone but the wrongdoer, and from a biblical point of view, this is the case, that the bible repeatedly states that God doesnt punish the righteous with the wicked. but back to the point, i think that many atheist would say that they know whats right and wrong and that they dont need God to know it. and quite honestly, i agree with them, they dont need God to know good and bad. the bible says that good and bad is written on the heart of ever man and woman. when it comes to motivation, i think that, from a biblical view, we didnt have the motivation to do wrong. when sin entered the world, that was when we developed this lean in our hearts to do wrong to a greater or lesser degree. an understanding of the effects of ones actions are often apparent, and other times not so apparent. some things can only be understood with experience.

“ IT'S A CHOICE !!!”

Since: Jun 12

Location hidden

#1871 May 28, 2013
susanblange wrote:
<quoted text>My care is actually free. I love him and he loves me. And I know you're going to say I got my moneys worth so don't say it. Elijah and I are a team and he will be my closest advisor. He is also called "Messiah" which means "anointed one" and he will also be literally anointed. Zechariah 4:14 "...these are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth".
...uh, okay?

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