Since: May 08

Location hidden

#43 Dec 4, 2008
nina wrote:
<quoted text>
that's the real problem with AA - making people powerless
and trading the alcohol dependance for meeting dependance
that's not empowering or recovery
It is a good indication that you're in a cult.

"The cult is the only way. Without us, your doomed. Thoroughly follow our path, let go of your own thinking completely".

“ I Am She SaHum”

Since: Apr 07

World

#44 Dec 4, 2008
Headhunter 300M wrote:
AA is full of bait-and switch games. Don't be fooled.
I sorry Headhunter I see you as a very smart person but in this area you are a bit naive.

Lets look at just 2 areas of the psych field:

Prozac in early studies shown that it was a good drug.There are now studies that show it works at the level of placebos.

Autism Bruno Bettelheim was an internationally known figure, prominent for his studies of autism and success in treating emotionally disturbed children.

Bettelheim subscribed to and was a key proponent of the refrigerator mother theory of autism, which enjoyed considerable influence into the 1960s and 1970s in the US, although there were suggestions he later changed his thinking.[1] It was in keeping with psychological theories that blamed most emotional illnesses on the parents, especially the mother. Bettleim 1967 book The Empty Fortress: Infantile Autism and the Birth of the Self, which promoted the "refrigerator mother" theory of autism, enjoyed wide success, especially in popular press. The book played a key role in ensuring that the "refrigerator mother" theory soon became the accepted explanation for autism in popular culture and, to a considerable extent, in professional circles.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bruno_Bettelheim

I work with mothers of Autistic kids who never gotten over the pain of years of belief it was their fault for Autism.

I can tell you that the History of the psychological professionals are worse then AA.

Since: May 08

Location hidden

#45 Dec 4, 2008
Want to be Hindu wrote:
<quoted text>
I sorry Headhunter I see you as a very smart person but in this area you are a bit naive.
Lets look at just 2 areas of the psych field:
Prozac in early studies shown that it was a good drug.There are now studies that show it works at the level of placebos.
Autism Bruno Bettelheim was an internationally known figure, prominent for his studies of autism and success in treating emotionally disturbed children.
Bettelheim subscribed to and was a key proponent of the refrigerator mother theory of autism, which enjoyed considerable influence into the 1960s and 1970s in the US, although there were suggestions he later changed his thinking.[1] It was in keeping with psychological theories that blamed most emotional illnesses on the parents, especially the mother. Bettleim 1967 book The Empty Fortress: Infantile Autism and the Birth of the Self, which promoted the "refrigerator mother" theory of autism, enjoyed wide success, especially in popular press. The book played a key role in ensuring that the "refrigerator mother" theory soon became the accepted explanation for autism in popular culture and, to a considerable extent, in professional circles.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bruno_Bettelheim
I work with mothers of Autistic kids who never gotten over the pain of years of belief it was their fault for Autism.
I can tell you that the History of the psychological professionals are worse then AA.
Thank you for the compliment, but as someone that was raised in a 12-step environment from the age of 10, been exposed to many 12-step programs, known many in the treatment center industry and related fields and having personally witnessed over and over again the damage this philosophy causes, I am ANYTHING but naive on this subject.
What the rest of your post does to prove AA as anything but a total failure escapes me.
You seem like a smart person yourself, and while I don't always agree with you, I appreciate many of your viewpoints. On this one, I encourage you to take a closer look and realize that the Emperor is not wearing clothes.

“ I Am She SaHum”

Since: Apr 07

World

#46 Dec 4, 2008
Headhunter 300M wrote:
<quoted text>
It is a good indication that you're in a cult.
"The cult is the only way. Without us, your doomed. Thoroughly follow our path, let go of your own thinking completely".
By the way you define cult. A psychotic who goes into a hospital is in a cult.

Since: May 08

Location hidden

#47 Dec 4, 2008
Want to be Hindu wrote:
<quoted text>
By the way you define cult. A psychotic who goes into a hospital is in a cult.
Maybe in a broad sense, but I don't see that as a fair analogy. Surely you don't trust anyone that tells you to abandon your thinking and entire sense of self? That they know what's best for you better than yourself? I suppose a psychotic or otherwise insane person would be an exception.

“ I Am She SaHum”

Since: Apr 07

World

#48 Dec 4, 2008
Headhunter 300M wrote:
<quoted text>
Thank you for the compliment, but as someone that was raised in a 12-step environment from the age of 10, been exposed to many 12-step programs, known many in the treatment center industry and related fields and having personally witnessed over and over again the damage this philosophy causes, I am ANYTHING but naive on this subject.
What the rest of your post does to prove AA as anything but a total failure escapes me.
You seem like a smart person yourself, and while I don't always agree with you, I appreciate many of your viewpoints. On this one, I encourage you to take a closer look and realize that the Emperor is not wearing clothes.
I would like to tell you I always find your arguments to be well thought out.And you are not unnecessarily rude to others so I think Highly of you.
nina

Ottawa, Canada

#49 Dec 4, 2008
Want to be Hindu wrote:
<quoted text>
I sorry Headhunter I see you as a very smart person but in this area you are a bit naive.
Lets look at just 2 areas of the psych field:
Prozac in early studies shown that it was a good drug....
prozac is a first generation drug, we're on the third generation now

you are right that the psych field is an art and not a science

and why is the first thing they say "tell me about your mother"

Since: May 08

Location hidden

#50 Dec 4, 2008
Want to be Hindu wrote:
<quoted text>
I would like to tell you I always find your arguments to be well thought out.And you are not unnecessarily rude to others so I think Highly of you.
That's nice of you to say...likewise.
bastardized religion

Cookeville, TN

#51 May 10, 2012
New48er wrote:
I am an AA member, and an atheist by the views of most religious people. Philosophically, I am agnostic - the existence of "God" can be neither proven nor disproven. I definitely do not believe in a "person" god, the all-knowing, all-powerful designer of the universe whose will determines all things.
AA literature clearly stipulates "God as we understood Him" and the basic text, the "Big Book," states this:
"When, therefore, we speak to you of God, we mean your own conception of God. This applies, too, to other spiritual expressions which you find in this book. Do not let any prejudice you may have against spiritual terms deter you from honetstly asking yourself what they mean to you." (p. 47, all editions)
Also, AA does not prey on anyone. No one in AA makes money from it; anyone is free to leave AA at any time, and people often do, to prove it's non-coercive.
What remains for atheists to explain is this: Religion is a phenomenon of human experience. It shows up in every culture, and in every historical period. We know it has something to do with the psychological power of metaphor and symbolic language. There is a psychological and sociological phenomenon in religion that remains unexplained. And, this power is used in A.A. to help people.
However, this is not to say that AA is "religious."
AA literature clearly states:
"A.A. is not allied with any sect, denomination, politics, organization or institution; does not wish to engage in any controversy; neither endorses nor opposes any causes. Our primary purpose is to stay sober and help other alcoholics to achieve sobriety."
No one makes money, no one is driven to join some church, each member decides for themselves what "God" and other terms mean for them.
Please stop spreading misinformation about AA, because it saves peoples' lives, and releases tortured families from their sad condition!
This is a bastardized twist of religion, fed by those "old timers" delusional narcissism. It can open you up to evil since it inflates your ego and excuses your sin of gluttony. It is a "one world religion" attempt that has our justice system and medicaid by the ba**s.
bastardized religion

Cookeville, TN

#52 May 10, 2012
Indy 300M wrote:
<quoted text>
That's nice of you to say...likewise.
It removes the "sufferer" from his family and alienates him in a social cult. It sets the members apart and spoon feeds them false ego-feeds. It breaks up marriages because it pushes people together when they are at an emotionally vulnerable time in their lives. It does NOT heal families, nor does alanon. Alanon is either going to teach you how to "turn the other cheek" to your abusive relationship, or it will be "exit counselling". BEWARE
bastardized religion

Cookeville, TN

#53 May 10, 2012
nina wrote:
<quoted text>
prozac is a first generation drug, we're on the third generation now
you are right that the psych field is an art and not a science
and why is the first thing they say "tell me about your mother"
Getting a group of people to emote (cry) together is a POWERFUL bonding technique. So is repeatedly telling them that noone understands them like the other group members DO. All their stories sound the same after a while, and all involve a sad sack tale of abuse at some point. Whatever gets the audience's heads nodding in approval becomes their history. There is only perpetual membership, which is a social "out" from their families and responsibilities...that is the pay-off to the members. "The meetings after the meetings". 3/4 of all marriages break up AFTER they are in alanon and aa respectively. That's approximately 25% more than the statistics of divorce of "non" members. If you do the crime, do the time, and get OVER it! Go to REAL church. Bill Wilson was a spiritualist who said he believed he was writing Christ's unfinished "work". Healthy? I think NOT!
come on now

Cookeville, TN

#54 May 10, 2012
Want to be Hindu wrote:
<quoted text>
I would like to tell you I always find your arguments to be well thought out.And you are not unnecessarily rude to others so I think Highly of you.
How long have YOU been exposed to this group experiment?
exactly

Cookeville, TN

#55 May 10, 2012
Indy 300M wrote:
<quoted text>
Thank you for the compliment, but as someone that was raised in a 12-step environment from the age of 10, been exposed to many 12-step programs, known many in the treatment center industry and related fields and having personally witnessed over and over again the damage this philosophy causes, I am ANYTHING but naive on this subject.
What the rest of your post does to prove AA as anything but a total failure escapes me.
You seem like a smart person yourself, and while I don't always agree with you, I appreciate many of your viewpoints. On this one, I encourage you to take a closer look and realize that the Emperor is not wearing clothes.
Your last sentence is one I have spoken many many times! I have been "exposed" to this abusive so-called treatment philosophy for 29 yrs. It is simply, evil.
exactly

Cookeville, TN

#56 May 10, 2012
New48er wrote:
I am an AA member, and an atheist by the views of most religious people. Philosophically, I am agnostic - the existence of "God" can be neither proven nor disproven. I definitely do not believe in a "person" god, the all-knowing, all-powerful designer of the universe whose will determines all things.
AA literature clearly stipulates "God as we understood Him" and the basic text, the "Big Book," states this:
"When, therefore, we speak to you of God, we mean your own conception of God. This applies, too, to other spiritual expressions which you find in this book. Do not let any prejudice you may have against spiritual terms deter you from honetstly asking yourself what they mean to you." (p. 47, all editions)
Also, AA does not prey on anyone. No one in AA makes money from it; anyone is free to leave AA at any time, and people often do, to prove it's non-coercive.
What remains for atheists to explain is this: Religion is a phenomenon of human experience. It shows up in every culture, and in every historical period. We know it has something to do with the psychological power of metaphor and symbolic language. There is a psychological and sociological phenomenon in religion that remains unexplained. And, this power is used in A.A. to help people.
However, this is not to say that AA is "religious."
AA literature clearly states:
"A.A. is not allied with any sect, denomination, politics, organization or institution; does not wish to engage in any controversy; neither endorses nor opposes any causes. Our primary purpose is to stay sober and help other alcoholics to achieve sobriety."
No one makes money, no one is driven to join some church, each member decides for themselves what "God" and other terms mean for them.
Please stop spreading misinformation about AA, because it saves peoples' lives, and releases tortured families from their sad condition!
It does NOT save people's lives, there is actual DAMAGE done to members lives. Tell me, can you , instead of quoting the above "doctrine" from their writings, can YOU restate the above in your OWN words? Have you ever been encouraged to actually THINK about what it is you are reading in that program? I think NOT!
exactly NOT

Cookeville, TN

#57 May 10, 2012
New48er wrote:
I am an AA member, and an atheist by the views of most religious people. Philosophically, I am agnostic - the existence of "God" can be neither proven nor disproven. I definitely do not believe in a "person" god, the all-knowing, all-powerful designer of the universe whose will determines all things.
AA literature clearly stipulates "God as we understood Him" and the basic text, the "Big Book," states this:
"When, therefore, we speak to you of God, we mean your own conception of God. This applies, too, to other spiritual expressions which you find in this book. Do not let any prejudice you may have against spiritual terms deter you from honetstly asking yourself what they mean to you." (p. 47, all editions)
Also, AA does not prey on anyone. No one in AA makes money from it; anyone is free to leave AA at any time, and people often do, to prove it's non-coercive.
What remains for atheists to explain is this: Religion is a phenomenon of human experience. It shows up in every culture, and in every historical period. We know it has something to do with the psychological power of metaphor and symbolic language. There is a psychological and sociological phenomenon in religion that remains unexplained. And, this power is used in A.A. to help people.
However, this is not to say that AA is "religious."
AA literature clearly states:
"A.A. is not allied with any sect, denomination, politics, organization or institution; does not wish to engage in any controversy; neither endorses nor opposes any causes. Our primary purpose is to stay sober and help other alcoholics to achieve sobriety."
No one makes money, no one is driven to join some church, each member decides for themselves what "God" and other terms mean for them.
Please stop spreading misinformation about AA, because it saves peoples' lives, and releases tortured families from their sad condition!
You NEED to read the results of Project Match and come back here and say what you get from reading about their results. I will look forward to it. You are spreading non-truths and false doctrine.
keep thinking

Cookeville, TN

#58 May 10, 2012
AA works sponsors dont wrote:
A.A itself is not a religion its Spirituality is freer, more personal, broader for fun and for free.
Now people in A.A. who label them self as a sponsors try to turn A.A. into a religion that is more structured and external.
A.A. is clear people, places and things can easily divert a soul from its goal.
Clean house and trust in who we come to call by name God.
The statement you make about people places, and things ALSO applies to those in aa. You will most likely, have your life diverted into the program and attending meetings and delude yourself into thinking you are doing what you MUST to remain sober. Run while you can. Your life is too important to waste. Do not be tricked into worshipping the false god of alcoholism. There are a lot of higher powers in those rooms and some of them are demonic. Beware which one you are looking to for a life-leader, and I do not mean a sponsor, either.
keep thinking

Cookeville, TN

#59 May 10, 2012
lord_jesus wrote:
<quoted text>
AA isn't supposed to be about religion, it's supposed to be about spirituality. That being said, it has followed down the same path as normal religions. It's a bunch of sheep leading each other around on strings of lies; in fact, it may be more dangerous than religion because the untangible threat of heaven/hell is now the very real threat of 'relapse'. It's a good idea that all too often goes wrong. Too many people in the rooms want to use Jesus!(always said with the exclamation mark) to fix other people's problems. It can help alot of people, so I think it's worth it. I decided (after my experience with AA) to look at it realistically: Granted, these people are brainwashed, BUT: they're way better off. Undeniably. There are a few side effects, like dependency on the rooms, but these aren't serious. Some more dangerous complications, like fundamentalist christianity, are also common. But hey, I'd rather they beat a bible than get drunk and beat their wife! Many people who go to AA go on to be sober and live better lives, and more power to them--Nothing's free. I can't handle AA, and I decided to do my own thing in my own time. But I hope it continues to help people get sober.
Many also go on to have affairs and remarry in the program, also. Read the results of Project Match about their negative recovery rate after involvement with aa, as compared to no treatment other than "maturing out" of the drinking days.
keep thinking

Cookeville, TN

#60 May 10, 2012
Want to be Hindu wrote:
<quoted text>
They need to get off Drugs before they get to the underlying problems. If you have be around someone who has this problem. It is clear they have lost control of there life. Read the Big Book and go to a meeting. See if you still think the same thing. AA\NA has saved the life of a few of my friends. AA folks work hard at living a good life.
You are confusing "working hard at living a good life" with working hard at STAYING IN AA and feeding the organization that runs it. That is a form of blind following that breaks up families, tells children their genes are faulty and damages their self-esteem, takes the focus OFF of the family and puts it onto THE GROUP, not personal sobriety. It is pure baffle-gab designed to confuse and make you feel you have to try harder to "get it", just like scientology. The scientologists call themselves a religion because it gives them GREAT tax benefits, but aa doesn't do that because then they would not be able to grab people from court and put them into court-ordered (tax-payer funded) rehabs that only teach aa. The supreme court of the usa has ruled in unequivocably a religion.
keep thinking

Cookeville, TN

#61 May 10, 2012
Whyarepeopleblind wrote:
"A.A. is not allied with any sect, denomination, politics, organization or institution; does not wish to engage in any controversy; neither endorses nor opposes any causes. Our primary purpose is to stay sober and help other alcoholics to achieve sobriety."
-So why do groups close with a prayer from the holy bible? It seems to me they are affiliated with religion, and I don't understand how the government can force someone to go to these meetings. What ever happened to separation of church and state?
The Supreme Court of the USA ruled it IS a religion and if you fight it you MUST be offered a non-faith based "treatment". Thank God for Project Match.
Amused

Lowell, MA

#62 May 11, 2012
Want to be Hindu wrote:
<quoted text>
It works....
Actually, the effectiveness of AA is the subject of considerable debate. There is a spontaneous recovery rate for alcoholism of around 5% per year. That is people who recover on their own, without treatment. Approximately 75% of recovering alcoholics got sober on their own, without AA or other treatment. The National Institute on Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism of the National Institutes of Health, performed the 2001-2002 National Epidemiologic Survey on Alcohol and Related Conditions. For it, they interviewed over 43,000 people. Using the criteria for alcohol dependence found in the DSM-IV, they found:
"About 75 percent of persons who recover from alcohol dependence do so without seeking any kind of help, including specialty alcohol (rehab) programs and AA. Only 13 percent of people with alcohol dependence ever receive specialty alcohol treatment.".

To claim success, AA would have to document that its members recovered at a greater rate than the spontaneous recovery rate. In some studies, the recovery rate for AA members was actually lower than the rate in control groups who received no treatment. In other studies, those in AA who relapsed tended to binge drink at a rate 5 times as great as non AA atending alcoholics. Outpatient Treatment of Alcoholism, by Jeffrey Brandsma, Maxie Maultsby, and Richard J. Welsh. University Park Press, Baltimore, MD., page 105.

"A Controlled Experiment on the Use of Court Probation for Drunk Arrests", by Keith S. Ditman, M.D., George C. Crawford, LL.B., Edward W. Forgy, Ph.D., Herbert Moskowitz, Ph.D., and Craig MacAndrew, Ph.D., in the American Journal of Psychiatry.1

In the study, 301 public drunkenness offenders were sentenced by the court to one of three "treatment programs". The offenders were randomly divided into three groups:
a control group that got no treatment at all,
a second group that was sent to a professional alcoholism treatment clinic,
and a third group that was sent to Alcoholics Anonymous.
All of the subjects were followed for at least a full year following conviction. Surprisingly, the no-treatment group did the best, and Alcoholics Anonymous did the worst, far worse than simply receiving no treatment at all.

Table 8.1 shows our treatment results. After initial discharge, only five patients in the Clinic sample never relapsed to alcoholic drinking, and there is compelling evidence that the results of our treatment were no better than the natural history of the disease. In table 8.1, the outcomes for the Clinic sample patients are contrasted with two-year follow-ups of four treatment programs that analyzed their data in a comparable way and admitted patients similar to ours. The Clinic sample results are also contrasted with three studies of equal duration that purported to offer no formal treatment. Although the treatment populations differ, the studies are roughly comparable; in hopes of averaging out major sampling differences, the studies are pooled. Costello (1975), Emrick (1975), and Hill and Blane (1967) have reviewed many more disparate two-year outcome studies and have noted roughly similar proportions of significantly improved and unimproved alcoholics. Not only had we failed to alter the natural history of alcoholism, but our death rate of three percent a year was appalling. Dr. George Vaillant, in The Natural History of Alcoholism: Causes, Patterns, and Paths to Recovery, George E. Vaillant, Harvard University Press, Cambridge, MA, 1983, pages 283-286. If there would be any bias in this study, it would have been in favor of AA, since Dr. Vaillant was also a Trustee of AA Worldwide Services, the governing body of AA.

There are some studies showing batter than spontaneous recovery rates, to be fair. Overall, the results of studies are quite mixed, and it is not possible to say, other than anecdotally that AA 'works'.

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