Alcoholics Anonymous is based on religion

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nina

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#23
Dec 2, 2008
 

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Want to be Hindu wrote:
@Skeptic I love AA. It helps people. You have a problem with them.
ps. Yes i did follow you off the Hindu Forum.
it does not help people

AA resists any auditing of results

and they do not disclose their success rates

it's purpose is to change your crutch from booze to religion
nina

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#24
Dec 2, 2008
 

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New48er wrote:
....
Please stop spreading misinformation about AA, because it saves peoples' lives, and releases tortured families from their sad condition!
as long as people are court ordered into AA, they are not free to leave

AA opposes the use of medications that stop alcohol cravings

AA does not produce any proof - audited by third parties - of their success rates

none of the step involve stopping drinking or taking actual responsibility

it's all, you're not good enough, give yourself over to god

letting people define "god" is a weak attempt to make it not religious

“ I Am She SaHum”

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#25
Dec 2, 2008
 
Whyarepeopleblind wrote:
"A.A. is not allied with any sect, denomination, politics, organization or institution; does not wish to engage in any controversy; neither endorses nor opposes any causes. Our primary purpose is to stay sober and help other alcoholics to achieve sobriety."
-So why do groups close with a prayer from the holy bible? It seems to me they are affiliated with religion, and I don't understand how the government can force someone to go to these meetings. What ever happened to separation of church and state?
Some groups dont have prayer at the end. I know of an Atheist meeting. AA has no rules about God. I have had 2 Atheist friends who went to AA.

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#26
Dec 3, 2008
 

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Whyarepeopleblind wrote:
"A.A. is not allied with any sect, denomination, politics, organization or institution; does not wish to engage in any controversy; neither endorses nor opposes any causes. Our primary purpose is to stay sober and help other alcoholics to achieve sobriety."
-So why do groups close with a prayer from the holy bible? It seems to me they are affiliated with religion, and I don't understand how the government can force someone to go to these meetings. What ever happened to separation of church and state?
AA IS a religion...a bad one. First the goal is to quit drinking, and then the goal is to "acquire faith" and "come to believe" in Bill Wilson's religion -- Buchmanism.

Bill Wilson pretended to be open-minded when he declared in the Big Book that A.A. was not the only way:
We have no desire to convince anyone that there is only one way by which faith can be acquired....
The Big Book, 3rd Edition, William G. Wilson, There Is A Solution, page 28.

First, Alcoholics Anonymous was advertised as a quit-drinking program, but then Bill suddenly switched the goal, and declared that it was an "acquire faith" program.

Bill Wilson did it again here, while he also declared that you could use your Alcoholic Anonymous group as your "god" (G.O.D.= Group Of Drunks):
I must quickly assure you that A.A.'s tread innumerable paths in their quest for faith. You can, if you wish, make A.A. itself your 'higher power.' Here's a very large group of people who have solved their alcohol problem. In this respect they are certainly a power greater than you, who have not even come close to a solution. Surely you can have faith in them. Even this minimum of faith will be enough. You will find many members who have crossed the threshold just this way. All of them will tell you that, once across, their faith broadened and deepened. Relieved of the alcohol obsession, their lives unaccountably transformed, they came to believe in a Higher Power, and most of them began to talk of God.
Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions, William G. Wilson, pages 27-28.

Who says that A.A. members are on a "quest for faith"?
It was supposed to be a quest for sobriety.

Bill taught the recruiters to handle the prospective new alcoholic members this way:
If he is sincerely interested and wants to see you again, ask him to read this book in the interval. After doing that, he must decide for himself whether he wants to go on. He should not be pushed or prodded by you, his wife, or his friends. If he is to find God, the desire must come from within.
The Big Book, 3rd & 4th Editions, William G. Wilson, Working With Others, page 95.

And if this isn't enough, read Chapter 4 of the Big Book again.

“ I Am She SaHum”

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#27
Dec 3, 2008
 

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nina wrote:
<quoted text>
it does not help people
AA resists any auditing of results
and they do not disclose their success rates
it's purpose is to change your crutch from booze to religion
Groups like the Betty Ford Hospital use the 12 step method. They have a good success rate. What do you think AA is all about. It is almost not an organiztion. It is just about not drinking. I dont care if people believe in God or not. Some meetings are Christian, some Taoist, others Atheist. I am sure that groups in my area San Franscico looks much different then In middle America. Many of my friends and family have been saved by 12 step programs. Please put people before your dogma. If you dont like it fine and good.

I do agree that the state should not make an Atheist go to a Theist group. Lets stop with the AA attacks I know for a fact that many or helped.

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#28
Dec 3, 2008
 

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Want to be Hindu wrote:
<quoted text>
Groups like the Betty Ford Hospital use the 12 step method. They have a good success rate. What do you think AA is all about. It is almost not an organiztion. It is just about not drinking. I dont care if people believe in God or not. Some meetings are Christian, some Taoist, others Atheist. I am sure that groups in my area San Franscico looks much different then In middle America. Many of my friends and family have been saved by 12 step programs. Please put people before your dogma. If you dont like it fine and good.
I do agree that the state should not make an Atheist go to a Theist group. Lets stop with the AA attacks I know for a fact that many or helped.
Professor George E. Vaillant of Harvard University is a Class A member of the Board of Trustees of Alcoholics Anonymous World Services, Inc.. He is one of the leaders of A.A., and one of the biggest promoters of A.A..
While working at the Cambridge-Sommerville [Massachusetts] Program for Alcohol Rehabilitation (CASPAR) back in the 1970s and 1980s, Dr. Vaillant conducted an 8-year-long clinical test of A.A. treatment of alcoholics, enthusiastically trying to prove that A.A. works and is a good, effective treatment for alcoholism.

Much to his dismay, Dr. Vaillant instead clearly showed that A.A. kills alcoholics.
And Dr. Vaillant candidly reported those results in his book The Natural History of Alcoholism: Causes, Patterns, and Paths to Recovery, in 1984.(He had to accurately report the results; his work was funded by the U.S. Government.)
It included:
To me, alcoholism became a fascinating disease. It seemed perfectly clear that ... by turning to recovering alcoholics [A.A. members] rather than to Ph.D.'s for lessons in breaking self-detrimental and more or less involuntary habits, and by inexorably moving patients from dependence upon the general hospital into the treatment system of A.A., I was working for the most exciting alcohol program in the world.
But then came the rub. Fueled by our enthusiasm, I and the director, William Clark, tried to prove our efficacy....
... After initial discharge, only five patients in the Clinic sample never relapsed to alcoholic drinking, and there is compelling evidence that the results of our treatment were no better than the natural history of the disease.
...
Not only had we failed to alter the natural history of alcoholism, but our death rate of three percent a year was appalling.
...
Once again, our results were no better than the natural history of the disorder.
The Natural History of Alcoholism: Causes, Patterns, and Paths to Recovery, George E. Vaillant, Harvard University Press, Cambridge, MA, 1983, pages 283-286.
The same text was reprinted in Vaillant's later book, The Natural History of Alcoholism Revisited, George E. Vaillant, Harvard University Press, Cambridge, MA, 1995, on pages 349-352.

Vaillant's A.A.-based treatment program had no better a success rate than several other treatment programs that he examined, or even a group of alcoholics who got no treatment at all.
As Vaillant plainly stated, his A.A.-based treatment program "failed to alter the natural history of alcoholism." ("Natural history of alcoholism" means what usually happens to untreated alcoholics.)
A.A. didn't work; it didn't save any alcoholics. A.A. was no better than no treatment at all.
And it was even worse than that, because, after 8 years of A.A. treatment, 29% of Vaillant's patients were dead. That is nearly one out of every three patients, dead.
Vaillant's A.A.-based treatment program had the highest death rate of any treatment program that he examined. Even Professor Vaillant called the A.A. death rate "appalling".

The Natural History of Alcoholism: Causes, Patterns, and Paths to Recovery George E. Vaillant
Harvard University Press, Cambridge, MA, and London, England, 1983.
ISBN: 0-674-60375-3
LC: number RC565.V33 1983
Dewey: 616.86'1
nina

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#29
Dec 3, 2008
 

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Want to be Hindu wrote:
<quoted text>
...Please put people before your dogma.....
please tell that to AA

the handful of people that I have known who have done the program

did not come out the other end as remotely the same

and I am not saying that in a good way

they came out with rather weird religious ideas and no sense of personal responsiblity

instead, it was the fault of everyone else who had enabled them

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#30
Dec 3, 2008
 
nina wrote:
<quoted text>
please tell that to AA
the handful of people that I have known who have done the program
did not come out the other end as remotely the same
and I am not saying that in a good way
they came out with rather weird religious ideas and no sense of personal responsiblity
instead, it was the fault of everyone else who had enabled them
Yep.

Here's my story:
http://www.topix.com/forum/health/alcoholism/...

“ I Am She SaHum”

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#31
Dec 3, 2008
 

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Headhunter 300M wrote:
<quoted text>
Professor George E. Vaillant of Harvard University is a Class A member of the Board of Trustees of Alcoholics Anonymous World Services, Inc.. He is one of the leaders of A.A., and one of the biggest promoters of A.A..
I am very sorry about what has happend to you around AA. I wish you and yours all the best.

My history with 12 step programs is much different. It saved the life of both my ex wife and my sister. So I feel the need to stand up for 12 step programs.

You cited one study of A.A. and other 12-Step programs. A miniscule sample of the research available. If you had looked harder, you would have found a wealth of credible studies from peer-reviewed scientific literature showing that A.A. participation does help people who suffer from the disease of addiction.

Here is just one study.

Journal article by Paige Crosby Ouimette, Rudolf H. Moos, John W. Finney; Journal of Studies on Alcohol, Vol. 59, 1998

A study of previously untreated problem drinkers examined (1) their choice of treatment after they contacted an information and referral service or attended a detoxification unit and (2) their 1-year and 3-year outcomes after their initial referral (Timko et al., 1993, 1994, 1995). At the 1-year follow-up, both persons who obtained outpatient treatment (some of whom also participated in AA) and persons who attended only AA meetings improved more, particularly on drinking outcomes, than those who obtained no treatment. However, no differences emerged between the AA-only and outpatient groups on 1-year or 3-year outcomes (Humphreys and Moos, 1996). At the 3-year follow-up, treated individuals who attended AA were more likely to be abstinent and to have fewer drinking problems and symptoms than treated individuals who did not attend AA, which suggests that a combination of formal treatment and self-help group participation may enhance patients' drinking-related outcomes.

“ I Am She SaHum”

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#32
Dec 3, 2008
 
nina wrote:
<quoted text>
please tell that to AA
the handful of people that I have known who have done the program
did not come out the other end as remotely the same
and I am not saying that in a good way
they came out with rather weird religious ideas and no sense of personal responsiblity
instead, it was the fault of everyone else who had enabled them
For years I have worked with abused kids. I have had very good out comes with the use of 12 step programs in the lives of the kids familys. Not all the 12 step programs have weird religious ideas.
Very few people have any idea of the suffering in many peoples lives.

“ I Am She SaHum”

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#33
Dec 3, 2008
 
nina wrote:
<quoted text>

it's purpose is to change your crutch from booze to religion
I am not in a 12 step program. I spent years working with folks that you seem to think need crutchs. I only want to help stop human suffering.Believe it or not most of us need some help at times. Offer your hand to others it makes us all a better person.
nina

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#34
Dec 3, 2008
 
Want to be Hindu wrote:
<quoted text>
...Here is just one study.
Journal article by Paige Crosby Ouimette, Rudolf H. Moos, John W. Finney; Journal of Studies on Alcohol, Vol. 59, 1998....
that study abstract does not specify AA as the organization

and I am unwilling to pay $15 to see the study.

I did come across these interesting links:

http://www.orange-papers.org/

http://www.addictioninfo.org/articles/1587/1/...

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#35
Dec 4, 2008
 
The Orange Papers are outstanding. I have my story in the letters section there as well as several other comments.
Be careful of "studies". There's a lot done by organizations with impressive sounding titles but they're really just front-groups for AA and 12 step programs, and the results are cherry-picked.

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#36
Dec 4, 2008
 
Want to be Hindu wrote:
<quoted text>
Not all the 12 step programs have weird religious ideas.
The 12 steps in-themselves are weird religious ideas. I know there's a lot of groups for Atheists and others, but 12-step quackery has been proven less than worthless.
If it were nothing more than what it projects itself to be to the public, it would have higher value: a group of people coming together for moral support. Unfortunately, it's full of dogmatic big-book thumpers and self-appointed gurus that turn it into a cult religion. It's also a haven for sexual-predators, control freaks and all kinds of weirdos.
The fact that some people claim years of sobriety and credit it to AA in no way proves it works, if it did, there would be a substantially higher rate of success over no program at all.
AA is full of bait-and switch games. Don't be fooled.

“ecrasez l'infame”

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#37
Dec 4, 2008
 
Religion often plays a big role in the 12 steps to sobriety offered by Alcoholics Anonymous. But some people looking to overcome addiction aren't comfortable with AA's religious overtones.

That's why there is an alternative! It is possible to acheive sobriety without god. The group is called SOS -- Save our Selves.
http://www.sossobriety.org/

“ I Am She SaHum”

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#38
Dec 4, 2008
 
Headhunter 300M wrote:
The Orange Papers are outstanding. I have my story in the letters section there as well as several other comments.
Be careful of "studies". There's a lot done by organizations with impressive sounding titles but they're really just front-groups for AA and 12 step programs, and the results are cherry-picked.
AA is not an organization in the sense that each meeting is its own culture. I agree that there are lots of nuts in AA. There are lots of nuts in any self help group or the psychological professionals at large. When I worked in mental hospitals we use to like to say the only difference between the nurses and patients is the nurses have the keys.I am telling you I have seen nutty groups and I have seen great groups that do help people.

Any type of therapeutic modality you name I will show you historical abuse.

You are right there are cherry picked studys for 12 step programs. There are also some good ones.There are also cherry picked behavioral studys.

I spent 20 years working in this field I can tell you that anytime you are dealing with people it is more of an Art then a Science.

“ I Am She SaHum”

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#39
Dec 4, 2008
 
Hedonist wrote:
Religion often plays a big role in the 12 steps to sobriety offered by Alcoholics Anonymous. But some people looking to overcome addiction aren't comfortable with AA's religious overtones.
That's why there is an alternative! It is possible to acheive sobriety without god. The group is called SOS -- Save our Selves.
http://www.sossobriety.org/
Any time I would enter any group I would be careful.

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#40
Dec 4, 2008
 
Hedonist wrote:
Religion often plays a big role in the 12 steps to sobriety offered by Alcoholics Anonymous. But some people looking to overcome addiction aren't comfortable with AA's religious overtones.
That's why there is an alternative! It is possible to acheive sobriety without god. The group is called SOS -- Save our Selves.
http://www.sossobriety.org/
Also SMART and Rational Recovery.

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#41
Dec 4, 2008
 
Want to be Hindu wrote:
<quoted text>
AA is not an organization in the sense that each meeting is its own culture. I agree that there are lots of nuts in AA. There are lots of nuts in any self help group or the psychological professionals at large. When I worked in mental hospitals we use to like to say the only difference between the nurses and patients is the nurses have the keys.I am telling you I have seen nutty groups and I have seen great groups that do help people.
Any type of therapeutic modality you name I will show you historical abuse.
You are right there are cherry picked studys for 12 step programs. There are also some good ones.There are also cherry picked behavioral studys.
I spent 20 years working in this field I can tell you that anytime you are dealing with people it is more of an Art then a Science.
The good studies show that AA has no better success than nothing, and higher rates of re-arrests, hospitalization and death. Teach people that they're powerless enough and they start to believe it.
nina

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#42
Dec 4, 2008
 
Headhunter 300M wrote:
<quoted text>
The good studies show that AA has no better success than nothing, and higher rates of re-arrests, hospitalization and death. Teach people that they're powerless enough and they start to believe it.
that's the real problem with AA - making people powerless

and trading the alcohol dependance for meeting dependance

that's not empowering or recovery

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