Can there be morality without religion?

Mar 5, 2013 Full story: The Daily Campus 84

Perhaps one of the biggest challenges to atheism today comes from moral philosophers who argue that it is impossible to substantiate a belief in an objective morality without an absolute authority like God to back it up.

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Since: Aug 12

Location hidden

#1 Mar 6, 2013
Sanhedrin 54b. A Jew may have sex with a child as long as the child is less than nine years old. Adults Allowed to Have Sex with Little Girls: Kethuboth 11b. When a grown-up man has intercourse with a little girl it is nothing. Jews Allowed to Marry 3-year old Girls: Sanhedrin 55b. A Jew may marry a three year old girl (specifically, three years "and a day" old). OK for Jews to Have Sex with 3-year old Child: Babylonian Talmud States: "Rabbi Joseph said,'Come and hear. A maiden aged 3 years and a day may be acquired in marriage by coition.' Mishnah: A girl of the age of 3 years and a day may be betrothed, subject to her father's approval, by sexual intercourse....Gemara: Our Rabbis taught:'A girl of the age of 3 years may be betrothed by sexual intercourse.' " Attitude Towards Non-Jewish Children: Yebamoth 98a. All Gentile (Non-Jewish) children are animals. Abodah Zarah 36b. Gentile (Non-Jewish) girls are in a state of filth (niddah) from birth. Non-Jews are Not Human: Baba Mezia 114a-114b. Only Jews are human. Schene luchoth haberuth, p 250b. Although the non-Jew has the same body structure as the Jew, they compare with the Jew as a monkey to a human. Baba Mezia, 114b (page referrals). The Jews are called human beings, but the non-Jews are not humans. They are beasts. Honoring Dogs More Than Non-Jews: Ereget Raschi Erod, 22 30. The Akum is like a dog. Yes, the scripture says to honor the dog more than the Non-Jew. Segregation of Women (and Dogs): Pesahim 111a (p. 571). It is forbidden for dogs, women or palm trees to pass between two men, nor may others walk between dogs, women or palm trees. Special dangers are involved if the women are menstruating or sitting at a crossroads. It's OK to Kill & Steal from Non-Jews: Sanhedrin 57a. When a Jew murders a Gentile (Non-Jew), there will be no death penalty. What a Jew steals from a Gentile he may keep. It's OK for Jews to Lie to Non-Jews: Baba Kamma 113a. Jews may use lies (subterfuges) to circumvent a Gentile (Non-Jew). Destroying Christian Books: Shabbath 116a (p. 569). Jews must destroy the books of the Christians, i.e. the New Testament. Jesus' Mother Mary was a Whore: Sanhedrin 106a. Says Jesus' mother was a whore: "She who was the descendant of princes and governors played the harlot with carpenters." Also in footnote #2 to Shabbath 104b it is stated that in the "uncensored " text of the Talmud it is written that Jesus mother had sex with many men. Treatment of Pregnant Non-Jews: Coschen Hamischpat 405. A pregnant non-Jew is no better than a pregnant animal. Non-Jews are Disgusting: Tosapoth, Jebamoth 94b. If you eat with a non-Jew it is the same as eating with a dog. Toilet Dust and Honey for Health: Gittin 69a. To heal his flesh a Jew should take dust that lies within the shadow of an outdoor toilet, mix it with honey and eat it.(7 min ago
gihhid

Pittsburgh, PA

#2 Mar 6, 2013
youtube.com/watch...
Life is Hell and Death is Heaven
Thinking

Gillingham, UK

#3 Mar 6, 2013
Yes.

Morality predates religion.

Religion damages morality.

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“I Am No One Else”

Since: Apr 12

Seattle

#4 Mar 6, 2013
Religious people make up their morals too, they just use excuses and non-answers to define it while the intelligent people use logic and reason. The only difference is that we hold ourselves accountable for our mistakes in choosing morals and then adapt those morals, while religious people just hold onto the same old flaws even when they kill people.

Since: Mar 11

Chicago, IL

#5 Mar 6, 2013
Ah the morality of Yahweh! I wonder if the believers would want that on the tablets at the courthouse?
Amused

Bridgewater, MA

#6 Mar 6, 2013
The argument that morality derives from religion would be more persuasive if the followers of religion actually relied solely on religious texts to govern their behavior. They do not. For example, the bible explicitly commands killing disrespectful children, adulterers, women who are not virgins on their wedding night, those who work on the sabbath, and gays. It condemns as 'abomination' the wearing of clothing made from more than one fiber, or the eating of pork or shellfish. The bible also heartily endorses slavery, setting forth detailed rules for holding slaves, specifying who may be enslaved, for how long, how slaves may be disciplined, when and how they may become free, etc. Not even the most fundamentalist christian or jew these days accepts the holding of slaves as consistent with good morals.

The bible commanded the israelites to slaughter all of the inhabitants of the cities they conquered. Today, such acts are prosecuted as war crimes and universally condemned. If the bible were the definitive source of morality, there is no basis in morality for the Geneva Convention, the Nuremberg trials, the prosecution of Slobodan Milosovic, etc.

None of these strictures are enforced these days. Yet, if the bible is truly the word of an eternal, unchanging deity, they would be as valid today as they were when written.

In declining to follow these commands, believers are necessarily using some extrinsic source of morality to assist them in deciding which biblical commands to follow and which to ignore. The existence of this extrinsic source of morality proves that the source of morality is not the panoply of religious precepts in their entirety, but only those precepts which also accord with another source of morals.

“Leave That Thing Alone!”

Since: Nov 07

Location hidden

#7 Mar 6, 2013
Morality exists inspite of religion

“Think&Care”

Since: Oct 07

Location hidden

#8 Mar 6, 2013
Can there be morality *with* religion?

Since: Sep 10

Earth

#9 Mar 6, 2013
Can there be morality WITH religion? FIFY.

And no, there can't.

People who are ethical didn't become so because of religion, they figured it out on their own. But plenty of people behave unethically because they are told to do so by religious leaders, or because they "think" they can "pray and be forgiven" - and they expect the temporal world to acceded to their fictional religion, no punishment for their actions.

“I Am No One Else”

Since: Apr 12

Seattle

#10 Mar 6, 2013
P_Smith wrote:
Can there be morality WITH religion? FIFY.
And no, there can't.
People who are ethical didn't become so because of religion, they figured it out on their own. But plenty of people behave unethically because they are told to do so by religious leaders, or because they "think" they can "pray and be forgiven" - and they expect the temporal world to acceded to their fictional religion, no punishment for their actions.
I concur.
Lincoln

United States

#11 Mar 7, 2013
P_Smith wrote:
Can there be morality WITH religion? FIFY.
And no, there can't.
People who are ethical didn't become so because of religion, they figured it out on their own. But plenty of people behave unethically because they are told to do so by religious leaders, or because they "think" they can "pray and be forgiven" - and they expect the temporal world to acceded to their fictional religion, no punishment for their actions.
With respect, your post may be overgeneralized?

"....their fictional religion" is your opinion on religion?

Does this cover all religions, in your opinion?

Since: Aug 12

Location hidden

#12 Mar 7, 2013
As the storm raged, the captain realized his ship was sinking fast. He called out, "Anyone here know how to pray?"

One man stepped forward. "Aye, Captain, I know how to pray."

"Good," said the captain, "you pray while the rest of us put on our life jackets - we're one short."

Since: Aug 12

Location hidden

#13 Mar 7, 2013
To cut a long story short:

The cu nt came back to life and they built a whole religion around him.
bohart

Newport, TN

#14 Mar 7, 2013
Humans are not naturally moral beings.No one has to teach a child how to lie, they do it instinctively. They have to be taught to tell the truth, not to steal, etc. ,etc.Morality must be taught, by religion or some other entity, but it must be learned, you are not born with it.
CunningLinguist

Hernando, FL

#15 Mar 7, 2013
Bear in mind that to a zealous Christian, all other belief systems are false by definition.

Nothing moral exists outside of the theological cocoon Christians reside in.

So of course, when these zealots speak of a "belief in and love for God", it must be the Bible God and no other. In other words, unless you believe in and love the Bible God, you can never be "totally" moral.

There are many examples of God's "morals" which are anything but moral according to modern "civilized" societies.

The Bible God endorsed slavery. That's a fact according to the Bible. Christians however, don't like this to be pointed out about their God so they'll attempt to dilute this ugly fact by claiming that God simply "tolerated" slavery but never endorsed it. A few quotes from the Bible dissolve this cozy notion and rather lame attempt to wash God's hands of this ugly doctrine.

The Bible God gave instructions on how his chosen people should wage war against their various neighbors:

Deut 20:10-11
When thou comest nigh unto a city to fight against it, then proclaim peace unto it.
And it shall be, if it make thee answer of peace, and open unto thee, then it shall be, that all the people that is found therein shall be tributaries(forced laborers) unto thee, and they shall serve thee.

Notice that if the people of the attacked city accept the "offer of peace" they will become slaves of God's chosen people.

Forced labor is slavery.

Deut 20:12-16
And if it will make no peace with thee, but will make war against thee, then thou shalt besiege it:
And when the LORD thy God hath delivered it into thine hands, thou shalt smite every male thereof with the edge of the sword:
But the women, and the little ones, and the cattle, and all that is in the city, even all the spoil thereof, shalt thou take unto thyself; and thou shalt eat the spoil of thine enemies, which the LORD thy God hath given thee.

Thus shalt thou do unto all the cities which are very far off from thee, which are not of the cities of these nations.

But of the cities of these people, which the LORD thy God doth give thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth:

Notice that God instructs his people to completely annihilate nearby nations, killing anything that "breathes", while nations further outside an immediate zone of holiness will have their men killed, their women, children, livestock and everything else taken as plunder by God's chosen people.

Does any of this actually sound "moral"?

This is the same Bible God which Christians say that society must believe in and love in order to have a totally moral society. Are slavery and mass genocide "moral" just because this deity commanded it?
Amused

Bridgewater, MA

#16 Mar 7, 2013
bohart wrote:
Humans are not naturally moral beings.No one has to teach a child how to lie, they do it instinctively. They have to be taught to tell the truth, not to steal, etc.,etc.Morality must be taught, by religion or some other entity, but it must be learned, you are not born with it.
False. Humans are social creatures, and getting along with others in a social group is an inherent part of who and what we are. Behaving in a manner that comports with group norms promotes survival of both the group and the individual. Behavior that undermines group cohesion threatens survival of the individual and the group.

Even other primates show behavior suggestive of a primitive moral sense. Those that kill, steal food or are sexually unfaithful are often shunned by the band or group.

“Leave That Thing Alone!”

Since: Nov 07

Location hidden

#17 Mar 7, 2013
CunningLinguist wrote:
Bear in mind that to a zealous Christian, all other belief systems are false by definition.
Nothing moral exists outside of the theological cocoon Christians reside in.
So of course, when these zealots speak of a "belief in and love for God", it must be the Bible God and no other. In other words, unless you believe in and love the Bible God, you can never be "totally" moral.
There are many examples of God's "morals" which are anything but moral according to modern "civilized" societies.
The Bible God endorsed slavery. That's a fact according to the Bible. Christians however, don't like this to be pointed out about their God so they'll attempt to dilute this ugly fact by claiming that God simply "tolerated" slavery but never endorsed it. A few quotes from the Bible dissolve this cozy notion and rather lame attempt to wash God's hands of this ugly doctrine.
The Bible God gave instructions on how his chosen people should wage war against their various neighbors:
Deut 20:10-11
When thou comest nigh unto a city to fight against it, then proclaim peace unto it.
And it shall be, if it make thee answer of peace, and open unto thee, then it shall be, that all the people that is found therein shall be tributaries(forced laborers) unto thee, and they shall serve thee.
Notice that if the people of the attacked city accept the "offer of peace" they will become slaves of God's chosen people.
Forced labor is slavery.
Deut 20:12-16
And if it will make no peace with thee, but will make war against thee, then thou shalt besiege it:
And when the LORD thy God hath delivered it into thine hands, thou shalt smite every male thereof with the edge of the sword:
But the women, and the little ones, and the cattle, and all that is in the city, even all the spoil thereof, shalt thou take unto thyself; and thou shalt eat the spoil of thine enemies, which the LORD thy God hath given thee.
Thus shalt thou do unto all the cities which are very far off from thee, which are not of the cities of these nations.
But of the cities of these people, which the LORD thy God doth give thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth:
Notice that God instructs his people to completely annihilate nearby nations, killing anything that "breathes", while nations further outside an immediate zone of holiness will have their men killed, their women, children, livestock and everything else taken as plunder by God's chosen people.
Does any of this actually sound "moral"?
This is the same Bible God which Christians say that society must believe in and love in order to have a totally moral society. Are slavery and mass genocide "moral" just because this deity commanded it?
You need to remember that extremely few christian have ever read their bible outside of a few chosen passages suggested to them by their religious leaders. It is the reason most atheisits know the bible better than the followers of it... a lot of have actually read it.
bohart

Newport, TN

#18 Mar 7, 2013
Amused wrote:
<quoted text>
False. Humans are social creatures, and getting along with others in a social group is an inherent part of who and what we are. Behaving in a manner that comports with group norms promotes survival of both the group and the individual. Behavior that undermines group cohesion threatens survival of the individual and the group.
Even other primates show behavior suggestive of a primitive moral sense. Those that kill, steal food or are sexually unfaithful are often shunned by the band or group.
False.....we are not animals.
Thinking

Gillingham, UK

#19 Mar 7, 2013
Yes you are.
bohart wrote:
<quoted text>
False.....we are not animals.
Thinking

Gillingham, UK

#20 Mar 7, 2013
children have to lie to stop priests f**king them.
bohart wrote:
Humans are not naturally moral beings.No one has to teach a child how to lie, they do it instinctively. They have to be taught to tell the truth, not to steal, etc.,etc.Morality must be taught, by religion or some other entity, but it must be learned, you are not born with it.

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