Do Christians worship an unreasonable...

Do Christians worship an unreasonable God, as atheist claims?

There are 564 comments on the Telegraph Herald story from Dec 11, 2010, titled Do Christians worship an unreasonable God, as atheist claims?. In it, Telegraph Herald reports that:

A proponent of atheism posted a comment on the TH website about a recent article of mine.

Join the discussion below, or Read more at Telegraph Herald.

Mike Duquette

Greer, SC

#21 Dec 22, 2010
Amara wrote:
Christians in the main stream of religion today worship what they are taught to worship.
They are taught Jesus is a Trinity god, burning fire punishment for the wicked, that you have an immortal soul, and that you will be raptured in the flesh to heaven. All unscriptural teachings.
Christians in the Christian religions today do what they are told to do by their consciences or ministers and priests. They follow that religious instruction if they are devout in their worship to that religions worship.
They do not worship Jehovah God, the God of the prophets or the God of Jesus and the apostles,
John 4:21
People can make the Bible say what they want it to say, but God's word has never changed. If you really want to know God, and what he wants from you as his child, read your Bible everyday.
Just as the people you say follow what their preachers say with blind trust, you follow the bible with that same blindness. The bible is only preachers saying things that happened to have been put into a book that is now called perfect.
Mike Duquette

Greer, SC

#22 Dec 22, 2010
Andre wrote:
<quoted text>Hi. I am not neccesarily implying that evolution is a religion, although I am sure that a case could be made. I was merely referring to the fact that the evolution theory suggest creation was a "fluke", that we have developed from very basic life forms and thus by implication there is no "moral" or "unreasonable" behaviour.
To suggest that the acceptance of evolution does not have a bearing on philosophical approach is not quite true. What is your view for instance on the purpose of life? Would that be different from that of a Muslim/Christian/Buddist?
Just as with most believers, you have been told wrongly about the implication of evolution needing no moral behavior.
This is what happens when you substitute science with religion.
Andre

Johannesburg, South Africa

#23 Dec 23, 2010
Andie J wrote:
Sorry, Andre, you're veering off topic now. The topic is not whether evolution or creationism is reasonable. The question is do some people feel that the christian god is unreasonable. Evolution's got nothing to do with the question.
If I accepted the christian god as real, I would feel that the god is unreasonable. What else can you think of a god who commands people to kill others, including their own children? Pretty unreasonable requests, don't you think? How reasonable is it to think that a god could convince anyone that a virgin gave birth? Or that the world was created in its entirety, in 6 days?
The question thus: Is the God of the Bible unreaonable? That would depend on what you describe as reasonable, not so? What is your standard for reasonable and why? Let us clarify that and take it from there? Why would any of the aspects mentioned by you suggest "being unreasonable"
Andre

Johannesburg, South Africa

#24 Dec 23, 2010
Headhunter 300M wrote:
<quoted text>
You contradict yourself heavily in this post by asking me to lay out how I determine certain standards then later acknowledge that most of your fellow Christians don't follow the standards laid-out for them. That should answer your question in itself if you have any capacity for critical thinking and honesty.
Hi there. It seems to me that having a standard and following/not following it is two different things? This is fairly obvious? If you are honest, you will agree that even you dont follow your own standards at times.
Andre

Johannesburg, South Africa

#25 Dec 23, 2010
Mike Duquette wrote:
<quoted text>Just as with most believers, you have been told wrongly about the implication of evolution needing no moral behavior.
This is what happens when you substitute science with religion.
Hi Mike. Please tell me what the standards for moral behaviour are and how this is arrived at according to evolution theory?

“Snow days!”

Since: Nov 08

A winter wonderland

#26 Dec 23, 2010
Andre wrote:
<quoted text> The question thus: Is the God of the Bible unreaonable? That would depend on what you describe as reasonable, not so? What is your standard for reasonable and why? Let us clarify that and take it from there? Why would any of the aspects mentioned by you suggest "being unreasonable"
You don't seriously think being commanded to kill is unreasonable? I'm glad there are laws to protect us from people like you.

“Snow days!”

Since: Nov 08

A winter wonderland

#27 Dec 23, 2010
Andre wrote:
<quoted text>Hi Mike. Please tell me what the standards for moral behaviour are and how this is arrived at according to evolution theory?
This has already been covered. Why do you insist on repetition?

“ecrasez l'infame”

Since: May 08

Atlanta, Georgia

#28 Dec 23, 2010
Andre wrote:
<quoted text>Hi Mike. Please tell me what the standards for moral behaviour are and how this is arrived at according to evolution theory?
Hi Andre, why don't you tell us what the standards for moral behavior are that are the exclusive providence of the christian bible?

Note that this morality cannot include any morality that exists separate from the christian bible, else you could not claim the bible actually provides moral guidance for anything.

In fact, just name ONE moral behavior that can be shown would not be available to humanity without the christian bible. Just one.

Since: May 08

Location hidden

#29 Dec 23, 2010
Andre wrote:
<quoted text>Hi there. It seems to me that having a standard and following/not following it is two different things? This is fairly obvious? If you are honest, you will agree that even you dont follow your own standards at times.
Why don't you just get to the point. You're playing games and trying to set little traps to support what must be flawed logic and false assertions. I'm happy to have a friendly discussion/debate but I prefer to be direct.
Andre

Johannesburg, South Africa

#30 Dec 23, 2010
Andie J wrote:
<quoted text>
You don't seriously think being commanded to kill is unreasonable? I'm glad there are laws to protect us from people like you.
Can you please answer the question?
Andre

Johannesburg, South Africa

#31 Dec 23, 2010
Andie J wrote:
<quoted text>
This has already been covered. Why do you insist on repetition?
Correct me if I am wrong, but it is accepted then that you decide what is right or wrong/reasonable/unreasonable for you under a set of circumstances?
Should this be the case, can I judge you according to my standards ( as they may obviously be different to yours?)
If I have misinterprested the viepoint that you refer to, please clarify for my benefit.
Andre

Johannesburg, South Africa

#32 Dec 23, 2010
Hedonist wrote:
<quoted text>
Hi Andre, why don't you tell us what the standards for moral behavior are that are the exclusive providence of the christian bible?
Note that this morality cannot include any morality that exists separate from the christian bible, else you could not claim the bible actually provides moral guidance for anything.
In fact, just name ONE moral behavior that can be shown would not be available to humanity without the christian bible. Just one.
Hi there Hedonist. We are discussing the "unreasonableness of the God of the Bible? The implied suggestion is that God may be unreasonable in his "behaviour" (murder of babies as an example. Can we stick to that for the moment?
Is the question that you pose not one that you should answer?
You actually also touch on a central aspect of Christianity which one could look at later or somewhere else and that is: "Christians (by my own admission) do not stick to the guidelines and are thus guilty of transgressing the very laws that they claim should guide their behaviour" Thus we are also "judging" others on the basis of the laws that we ourselves do not keep and by doing so be rather dishonest and worse.
Andre

Johannesburg, South Africa

#33 Dec 23, 2010
Headhunter 300M wrote:
<quoted text>
Why don't you just get to the point. You're playing games and trying to set little traps to support what must be flawed logic and false assertions. I'm happy to have a friendly discussion/debate but I prefer to be direct.
I like your approach. Please forgive me then for trying to establish some form of basis.
Yes, the basic argument is thus: If we accept that truth is relative and we each have our own truth or viewpoint of what is reasonable or unreasonable, we cannot judge another on the basis of our own "truth" - which may even change with time as for instance the views on abortion.
Then we cannot judge God on his set of standards - because it is true for Him. The best we can say then is that , based on my personal standards/points of view at the time(which may even be fairly commonly held beliefs), is that God is unfair, not a God of love and all the things that Dawkins claim.
For the statement "the God of the Bible is unreasonable", to be really true, it must be true for all people at all times.

What would be interesting to evaluate, would be whether the God of the Bible is true to his own standards and those that Christians claim to be true of Him (love, compassion, being just, fair etc.) and thus unreasonable acording to the very standards that He set.
Andre

Johannesburg, South Africa

#34 Dec 23, 2010
Guys, I am on "holiday" with my family during Christmas and may be a little slow in responding. I wish you all a really fantastic time with your loved ones.
Thanks for the positive attitudes, I appreciate it.

“Snow days!”

Since: Nov 08

A winter wonderland

#35 Dec 24, 2010
Andre wrote:
<quoted text>Can you please answer the question?
Which one? You asked 5 questions.

“Snow days!”

Since: Nov 08

A winter wonderland

#36 Dec 24, 2010
Andre wrote:
<quoted text>Correct me if I am wrong, but it is accepted then that you decide what is right or wrong/reasonable/unreasonable for you under a set of circumstances?
Should this be the case, can I judge you according to my standards ( as they may obviously be different to yours?)
If I have misinterprested the viepoint that you refer to, please clarify for my benefit.
You'll judge me by your own standards regardless, so there's no point in arguing that. I decide for myself what is reasonable or not. Society makes distinctions on reasonability. It is UNreasonable to kill. Under what set of circumstances? Your questions are far too vague to have definitive answers.

“Darwin died for your sins”

Since: Aug 08

Nunya

#37 Dec 24, 2010
Andre wrote:
<quoted text>Correct me if I am wrong, but it is accepted then that you decide what is right or wrong/reasonable/unreasonable for you under a set of circumstances?
Should this be the case, can I judge you according to my standards ( as they may obviously be different to yours?)
If I have misinterprested the viepoint that you refer to, please clarify for my benefit.
Ok, who the hell let Ray Comfort in here?

“Snow days!”

Since: Nov 08

A winter wonderland

#38 Dec 24, 2010
madscot wrote:
<quoted text>
Ok, who the hell let Ray Comfort in here?
Who was supposed to be in charge of the keys this week?

“Darwin died for your sins”

Since: Aug 08

Nunya

#39 Dec 24, 2010
Andie J wrote:
<quoted text>
Who was supposed to be in charge of the keys this week?
That's what I want to know! We must keep this forum banana man free I say!
Gillette

Fairfield, IA

#40 Dec 24, 2010
>>>Andre
The basic argument is thus: If we accept that truth is relative and we each have our own truth or viewpoint of what is reasonable or unreasonable, we cannot judge another on the basis of our own "truth" - which may even change with time as for instance the views on abortion.

>>>Gillette
OF COURSE we can. In fact, we have nothing ELSE by which to judge right and wrong except our own, subjective understanding of that subject.

And while we may each have our own idea of moral truth, we also tend to congregate into religious groups or nation states, etc. where we generally share our ideas of morality with other, similar people. That doesn't make them absolute or universal.

The idea that moral values are absolute is itself a man-made, therefore subjective relative OPINION or viewpoint on moral truth. The stories told in your Bible were conceived and written by MEN. If you disagree and say, "No, we believe they are the Truth spoken by God," you are just expressing another man-made opinion which has been passed on to you by parents, Bible teachers, pastors, etc.

Morality is relative and yes, it does change, gradually over time, although the "biggies" (i.e. "don't kill or steal") tend to have been deeply ingrained on us by the long passage of evolution because they have been found necessary to the orderly progress of society. But obviously, there are countless tens of millions of people on this planet who do not share our belief that killing or stealing or rape, etc., is wrong. They do it with gusto, until the rest of us catch up with them.

>>>Andre
The best we can say then is that , based on my personal standards/points of view at the time(which may even be fairly commonly held beliefs), is that God is unfair, not a God of love and all the things that Dawkins claim.

>>>Gillette
Yes, that is the best and only thing we can say. That is Dawkins' opinion, shared by many who live outside the fold of Christianity.

>>>Andre
For the statement "the God of the Bible is unreasonable", to be really true, it must be true for all people at all times.

>>>Gillette
I can't imagine ANYTHING in the area of moral values and codes being "true for all people at all times." Can you come up with a specific example?

>>>Andre
What would be interesting to evaluate, would be whether the God of the Bible is true to his own standards and those that Christians claim to be true of Him (love, compassion, being just, fair etc.) and thus unreasonable acording to the very standards that He set.

>>>Gillette
Much more interesting to me (and much more of a basic, underlying concern) is whether this God of yours actually exists as you imagine him, and whether he actually 'wrote' or verbally inspired the book you call the Bible.:)

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