"Proof" behind a God.
the serpent was right

Fogelsville, PA

#22 Jan 8, 2012
humble brother wrote:
<quoted text>
A desired outcome? How can that be arranged when he is performing the experiments? You believe that I can somehow magically make sure that he sees some signs? How do you suppose that happens?
Now YOU have to explain yourself and how I could get an outcome which I desire for his experiments while I have no way of affecting the experiments?
The ball is in your court. Please explain.
This is childishly simple.

To do as you suggest would require a belief in god. I cannot ask something that I don't believe in to help me believe in him. Nor can I ask something that I do not believe in to mold me, etc...

Your "experiment" requires that one already accepts the existance of a god. To experiment on the validity or existance of something, one would have to be willing to question the existance without bias. In other words, if you want to prove that your god is real, you can't say "you have to believe 'first', and than you will recieve the evidence."

I would suggest two things....

1) Grow up.

2)Get an education

Since: Nov 11

Location hidden

#23 Jan 8, 2012
Pete-o wrote:
<quoted text>
He was being satirical. Or Ironic. Or if you prefer, satirically ironic.
okay, thanks

i thought it was odd

having trouble parsing sometimes

“I am”

Since: Jul 11

Location hidden

#24 Jan 8, 2012
humble brother wrote:
<quoted text>
You're a man of fallacies. As I said if you don't care to properly do the experiments then stop whining.
Now you blurted out the biggest fallacy of them all, it quite well describes how you are.
If an experiment fails then what you have is a failed experiment and it needs to be conducted again so that it does not fail.
If an experiment is successful and the result contradicts the hypothesis then the hypothesis may be falsified but first the experiment needs to be repeated many times by many different people before the falsification is confirmed.
I suppose it is totally useless trying to discuss with you when you don't know the basic things about science. Your writings have shown you to be a young irrational person having some emotional reason for believing what you believe.
So because you are not interested, I am not interested in your situation anymore...
If the experiment fails once, try again.
If the experiment fails over a span of 5 years, then the sensible thing to do is realize that the hypothesis is false.
You can tell me that I do not know anything about science, but the fact of the matter is that you simply don't wish to listen to me, so you ignore what I have to say and simply refute what I have to say by stating the same things over.

Scientific experiments follow this pattern:
Ask a Question
Do Background Research
Construct a Hypothesis
Test Your Hypothesis by Doing an Experiment
Analyze Your Data and Draw a Conclusion
Communicate Your Results

Here's your experiment in a nutshell.

My Question: Does God exist?
Background research: None. You don't need any.
Construct a Hypothesis: God is real if you pray to Him and forsake all of the knowledge you have learned over the year disproving God.
Testing your hypothesis: Bow down before the "Lord" without questioning if He is real or not, assume that the Lord will help you without proof that he will help you, follow His rules without knowing if He exists, force yourself to kneel to Him and pray for salvation without question, and let Him have your life by assuming that He exists blindly.
Analyze your data by Doing an Experiment: Well, while it is still not known that the Lord exists through any forms of proof, and all I've done is sit and pray to something that is not yet proven to exist, and there has been no expansion of knowledge from what I previously knew. However, going through these processes of continual routine prayer to this being that I still don't know exists and abandoning my natural logic that tells me he doesn't exist has left me only with the belief that God exists, since all other logic has been abandoned.
Communicate your results: Well, now that I believe in a deity that I cannot prove exists, it is time to tell others that this deity exists, and that all they need to do to prove it is the follow it blindly and completely forget everything else they learned.

You really don't seem to get it. ATHEISTS WANT ACTUAL PROOF OF GOD!
Simply praying to God and forsaking the knowledge we have learned does not prove God: It simply follows the premise that if people believe in God, God exists.

So, you can whine and 3itch and moan about how I don't understand scientific experiments, but frankly, if you don't understand that atheists only want proof of God (like one proves that a baseball exists), then you will never understand why atheists truly believe that God doesn't exist.

I'd say "nice try," but it wasn't.

“Fortes Fortuna Juvat, ”

Since: Dec 09

Wichita. Ks.

#25 Jan 8, 2012
Being Alive wrote:
<quoted text>
If the experiment fails once, try again.
If the experiment fails over a span of 5 years, then the sensible thing to do is realize that the hypothesis is false.
You can tell me that I do not know anything about science, but the fact of the matter is that you simply don't wish to listen to me, so you ignore what I have to say and simply refute what I have to say by stating the same things over.
Scientific experiments follow this pattern:
Ask a Question
Do Background Research
Construct a Hypothesis
Test Your Hypothesis by Doing an Experiment
Analyze Your Data and Draw a Conclusion
Communicate Your Results
Here's your experiment in a nutshell.
My Question: Does God exist?
Background research: None. You don't need any.
Construct a Hypothesis: God is real if you pray to Him and forsake all of the knowledge you have learned over the year disproving God.
Testing your hypothesis: Bow down before the "Lord" without questioning if He is real or not, assume that the Lord will help you without proof that he will help you, follow His rules without knowing if He exists, force yourself to kneel to Him and pray for salvation without question, and let Him have your life by assuming that He exists blindly.
Analyze your data by Doing an Experiment: Well, while it is still not known that the Lord exists through any forms of proof, and all I've done is sit and pray to something that is not yet proven to exist, and there has been no expansion of knowledge from what I previously knew. However, going through these processes of continual routine prayer to this being that I still don't know exists and abandoning my natural logic that tells me he doesn't exist has left me only with the belief that God exists, since all other logic has been abandoned.
Communicate your results: Well, now that I believe in a deity that I cannot prove exists, it is time to tell others that this deity exists, and that all they need to do to prove it is the follow it blindly and completely forget everything else they learned.
You really don't seem to get it. ATHEISTS WANT ACTUAL PROOF OF GOD!
Simply praying to God and forsaking the knowledge we have learned does not prove God: It simply follows the premise that if people believe in God, God exists.
So, you can whine and 3itch and moan about how I don't understand scientific experiments, but frankly, if you don't understand that atheists only want proof of God (like one proves that a baseball exists), then you will never understand why atheists truly believe that God doesn't exist.
I'd say "nice try," but it wasn't.
Very well stated, but it is beyond there understanding.

They are too scared to challenge their faith.

“Fortes Fortuna Juvat, ”

Since: Dec 09

Wichita. Ks.

#26 Jan 8, 2012
Sorry (Their)

“I am”

Since: Jul 11

Location hidden

#27 Jan 8, 2012
Let me show you, humble brother, why atheists don't believe in supernatural entities.

Now, I am going to make an assertion to you, and it's going to sound a little weird, but I promise you that it is "true".
Somewhere, flying throughout the ozone layer of the Earth, lies the creator of the universe: The King of Kings: The Lord of Lords: The Final Judge: The ultimate being and giver of life!

Your Savior from death is A weasel.

His name is Jim.

Now,before you judge this, let me tell you all of the wonderful things about Jim.
First off, Jim created everything 2 million years ago, and everything was made in order to please Him.

Even you.

Jim established all of the societies in the universe, and enforced that "good" is based upon perspective and society.

In the past, Jim was known to bite the Big Left Toe off of evil-doers and necrophiliacs.
However, in our current day, Jim helps individuals by giving them obstacles in their life to overcome. Anyone who gives their lives to Him and worships Him and his Weasel-y grace may feel his love.

Now, you cannot tangibly prove that Jim exists. Jim is everything. Jim is all that is and will be. You must simply accept this to be truth before you accept that He is your savior.

There is only one way to prove that Jim exists; pray to Jim to prove that He exists.
You must abandon everything that you know about God, Jesus Christ, and Heaven. Everything that you currently know are things that you must abandon. You must then accept that Jim exists.

Now, here's the wonderful thing: If you pray to Jim, and ask Him to show you his Weasel-y love, He exists. If you turn your life over to Him, pray to Him every day, accept that He is the only true savior, and believe in Him, then He will exist.

You cannot prove that Jim the weasel exists, just like you cannot prove that God exists. However, if you pray to Jim, Jim will show you that He exists. He will show you his existence to be true by having you realize that you believe in Him.
However, there have been testimonies from people over thousands of years ago that proves that Jim exists.

Now, how does that sound to you? All you have to do is forsake everything that you currently believe, and pray to Him for His love, and you will know that you believe in Jim.

Now, I will let you analyze this however you want.
But I will tell you this: Do you believe that Jim exists? The evidence is right in front of you, and I gave you the true way to learn how Jim exists.
What makes Jim different from God?
humble brother

Helsinki, Finland

#28 Jan 9, 2012
Being Alive wrote:
Let me show you, humble brother, why atheists don't believe in supernatural entities.
I don't believe in supernatural either. Only what can be observed in the natural. To believe that something supernatural affects the natural that would be irrational.
Being Alive wrote:
Somewhere, flying throughout the ozone layer of the Earth, lies the creator of the universe: The King of Kings: The Lord of Lords: The Final Judge: The ultimate being and giver of life!
Your Savior from death is A weasel.
His name is Jim.
Now,before you judge this, let me tell you all of the wonderful things about Jim.
First off, Jim created everything 2 million years ago, and everything was made in order to please Him.
Even you.
Jim established all of the societies in the universe, and enforced that "good" is based upon perspective and society.
In the past, Jim was known to bite the Big Left Toe off of evil-doers and necrophiliacs.
However, in our current day, Jim helps individuals by giving them obstacles in their life to overcome. Anyone who gives their lives to Him and worships Him and his Weasel-y grace may feel his love.
Now, you cannot tangibly prove that Jim exists. Jim is everything. Jim is all that is and will be. You must simply accept this to be truth before you accept that He is your savior.
There is only one way to prove that Jim exists; pray to Jim to prove that He exists.
You must abandon everything that you know about God, Jesus Christ, and Heaven. Everything that you currently know are things that you must abandon. You must then accept that Jim exists.
Now, here's the wonderful thing: If you pray to Jim, and ask Him to show you his Weasel-y love, He exists. If you turn your life over to Him, pray to Him every day, accept that He is the only true savior, and believe in Him, then He will exist.
You cannot prove that Jim the weasel exists, just like you cannot prove that God exists. However, if you pray to Jim, Jim will show you that He exists. He will show you his existence to be true by having you realize that you believe in Him.
However, there have been testimonies from people over thousands of years ago that proves that Jim exists.
Now, how does that sound to you? All you have to do is forsake everything that you currently believe, and pray to Him for His love, and you will know that you believe in Jim.
Now, I will let you analyze this however you want.
But I will tell you this: Do you believe that Jim exists? The evidence is right in front of you, and I gave you the true way to learn how Jim exists.
I don't really know this Jim character you describe so I must remain an agnostic. He may simply be some sort of bird, e.g. eagle. So it is possible that he exists.

What comes to praying you seem to have misunderstood that as well. Praying is just a stream of thoughts. I can not know if in some circumstances the "brainwaves" that are the results of the thinking process can somehow be transmitted between brains through the physical matter of the natural universe. After all brainwaves are just electricity and electricity is a phenomenon of the physical matter.

So from the scientific perspective it may be possible that some physical being is sensitive enough and tuned in to hearing thoughts as brainwaves as they are transmitted.

Could I bird understand those human thoughts? I really have no answer as thoughts have no language.
Being Alive wrote:
What makes Jim different from God?
Jim is not omnipresent so it appears that in order to be omnipotent he would have to resort to supernatural means. I don't believe in supernatural.

I will now once again slap you with the obvious:
It is rational if you choose to not believe in the creator of the universe. It is your choice and you are free to make it.

It is very much irrational if you choose to believe that it is impossible for the universe to have a creator. That choice can only be based on emotions.

How does that make you feel?

“I am”

Since: Jul 11

Location hidden

#29 Jan 9, 2012
humble brother wrote:
<quoted text>
I don't believe in supernatural either. Only what can be observed in the natural. To believe that something supernatural affects the natural that would be irrational.
<quoted text>
I don't really know this Jim character you describe so I must remain an agnostic. He may simply be some sort of bird, e.g. eagle. So it is possible that he exists.
What comes to praying you seem to have misunderstood that as well. Praying is just a stream of thoughts. I can not know if in some circumstances the "brainwaves" that are the results of the thinking process can somehow be transmitted between brains through the physical matter of the natural universe. After all brainwaves are just electricity and electricity is a phenomenon of the physical matter.
So from the scientific perspective it may be possible that some physical being is sensitive enough and tuned in to hearing thoughts as brainwaves as they are transmitted.
Could I bird understand those human thoughts? I really have no answer as thoughts have no language.
<quoted text>
Jim is not omnipresent so it appears that in order to be omnipotent he would have to resort to supernatural means. I don't believe in supernatural.
I will now once again slap you with the obvious:
It is rational if you choose to not believe in the creator of the universe. It is your choice and you are free to make it.
It is very much irrational if you choose to believe that it is impossible for the universe to have a creator. That choice can only be based on emotions.
How does that make you feel?
I told you: Jim is everything. He is the universe.This allows him to be a weasel that flies around the Ozone Layer, yet one cannot study Him.
He is the true creator of the universe. Not God.
I don't know what you are babbling on about on the idea of "brainwaves" and whatnot, but all you have to do is pray to Him, and you will be saved from Damnation.

Your belief in a "divine creator" is an irrational one, which is simply used to "fill in the gaps" for what humans do not yet comprehend.
You cannot prove that a "divine creator" exists, and you illogical "scientific experiment" that you wrote forces people to accept the belief that God exists before one can "find the proof" of God. Then, one must abandon the rest of what one knows and completely focus on the idea that God exists.
Just because you believe in God, that doesn't mean God exists.
It means you BELIEVE that God exists.
I can BELIEVE in Jim, but that doesn't prove to either one of us that Jim does or does not exist.
It means I BELIEVE in Jim.
I can tell you to pray to Jim and let him into your heart, but that still doesn't mean that Jim exists.

Come back with proof, and we'll listen.
Come back with prayers, and we'll heckle you.
redneck

Glendale, OR

#30 Jan 9, 2012
Being Alive wrote:
<quoted text>
I told you: Jim is everything. He is the universe.This allows him to be a weasel that flies around the Ozone Layer, yet one cannot study Him.
He is the true creator of the universe. Not God.
I don't know what you are babbling on about on the idea of "brainwaves" and whatnot, but all you have to do is pray to Him, and you will be saved from Damnation.
Your belief in a "divine creator" is an irrational one, which is simply used to "fill in the gaps" for what humans do not yet comprehend.
You cannot prove that a "divine creator" exists, and you illogical "scientific experiment" that you wrote forces people to accept the belief that God exists before one can "find the proof" of God. Then, one must abandon the rest of what one knows and completely focus on the idea that God exists.
Just because you believe in God, that doesn't mean God exists.
It means you BELIEVE that God exists.
I can BELIEVE in Jim, but that doesn't prove to either one of us that Jim does or does not exist.
It means I BELIEVE in Jim.
I can tell you to pray to Jim and let him into your heart, but that still doesn't mean that Jim exists.
Come back with proof, and we'll listen.
Come back with prayers, and we'll heckle you.
Replying to that guy is critical waste of computer space and time. He needs a reality ckeck that can only be given by a trained professional.

“I am”

Since: Jul 11

Location hidden

#31 Jan 9, 2012
But first, let me tell you exactly what "proof" is so you don't come back with any other preconceived notions or tell me that what you have is "proof"

Proof is evidence to support your statements or claims. They are studies, reports, and data which has been taken from experiments that support the hypothesis that you have.

Proof can be seen by anyone, regardless of any preconceived notions. There are a good chunk of people who go into an experiment believing the hypothesis is false. One doesn't need to have any notions or attitude assuming that the experiment will be a success.

Before one can use "proof" of how to pray and talk to "God," one must first prove that God exists. I can tell you that all you need to do to find Jim is to pray to Him, but if you don't first have proof that Jim exists, Jim sounds like some ridiculous imaginary creature to keep immature individuals comfortable throughout their lives.

Prove that God exists, and I guarantee that Atheism will die out.
However, you can't. Your definition of "God" follow natural laws, and cannot in any way be examined or studied.
Just because you place the name "God" synonymous to "universe," that doesn't add any credibility to your claims.
It only hurts the claim that one exists in the first place.
humble brother

Helsinki, Finland

#32 Jan 9, 2012
Being Alive,

I'm sorry but I've already lost interest in your attempts to find evidence. To find evidence you first must believe it is possible to find it. You obviously are incapable of that in this case.

I am very happy to just keep on discussing about atheism and how irrational the basis for the whole atheistic philosophy is.

Keep on believing without evidence :)

At least in your case everyone KNOWS that you have irrational beliefs based on emotions. No one can deny the fact that there can never be evidence of nonexistence.

You on the other hand can never know what evidence of God any believer has observed.

So you are the one KNOWN to be irrational...

“ecrasez l'infame”

Since: May 08

Atlanta, Georgia

#33 Jan 9, 2012
humble brother wrote:
Being Alive,
...Keep on believing without evidence ...
That is a bald-faced lie. You have been told this too many time to feign ignorance ... unless you're truly that ignorant.

Until you stop misrepresenting what atheism is, you will continue to treated with all the contempt this level of stupidity deserves.

“I am”

Since: Jul 11

Location hidden

#34 Jan 9, 2012
humble brother wrote:
Being Alive,
I'm sorry but I've already lost interest in your attempts to find evidence. To find evidence you first must believe it is possible to find it. You obviously are incapable of that in this case.
I am very happy to just keep on discussing about atheism and how irrational the basis for the whole atheistic philosophy is.
Keep on believing without evidence :)
At least in your case everyone KNOWS that you have irrational beliefs based on emotions. No one can deny the fact that there can never be evidence of nonexistence.
You on the other hand can never know what evidence of God any believer has observed.
So you are the one KNOWN to be irrational...
The fact of the matter is you cannot PROVE that God exists.
You can 3itch to me about how irrational I am, but the fact of the matter is your "God" is just a figment of your imagination derived from your lack of understanding of the world.
Evidence doesn't need a preconceived notion that the hypothesis is true simply because you believe it is true.
You got no evidence going for you.

You cannot refute that Jim doesn't exist because, like your imaginary friend "God," there are too many arbitrary rules and reasons as to why He cannot be studied. According to you, God must be accepted as truth before you can find God. That is not proof; that is not evidence; that is not logical reasoning.
You also cannot refute my argument showing that your "scientific study" is nothing more than a false set of rules that one must follow in order to convince themselves that they believe in a God after abandoning all logic.
If you can actually prove God, one wouldn't need to believe in Him to learn these "proofs." Anyone would be able to see it.
At least real science can be seen, no matter what or how you believe.

Have fun praying to your imaginary friend.
humble brother

Helsinki, Finland

#35 Jan 9, 2012
Being Alive wrote:
The fact of the matter is you cannot PROVE that God exists.
Of course I cannot if you refuse to perform the scientific experiment how it is supposed to be performed.

So for now I don't care if you don't find any evidence. You're not really looking to find any, are you. So it is a waste of time with you.
Being Alive wrote:
You cannot refute that Jim doesn't exist because, like your imaginary friend "God," there are too many arbitrary rules and reasons as to why He cannot be studied.
If your Jim is omnipresent and omnipotent and the creator of the universe then you have just given another name for the great "I AM" who is existence itself.

If that is the case then your Jim exists. Jim is just a name.

But as you should know, all of existence can not fit into a finite being. So if you claim that Jim is a small being flying in the sky, then your Jim is paradox.
humble brother

Helsinki, Finland

#36 Jan 9, 2012
Hedonist wrote:
That is a bald-faced lie. You have been told this too many time to feign ignorance ... unless you're truly that ignorant.
Until you stop misrepresenting what atheism is, you will continue to treated with all the contempt this level of stupidity deserves.
Well atheists do not agree on what atheism is. So quit reflecting your beliefs on others. Let others do their own debating.

You can all test your rationality with this question:
Do you believe there is a POSSIBILITY that the creation of the material universe was intentional???

If you answer NO to that question then you know that you have formed a belief based on emotions and your position in this matter is very much irrational.
humble brother

Helsinki, Finland

#37 Jan 9, 2012
Also if you go on and say that there's a 0.0000000001 possibility then you will have to present your statistical evidence used as basis for that particular inference.
humble brother

Helsinki, Finland

#38 Jan 9, 2012
If you don't have any statistical evidence for inference then your left with just a possibility for which the probability is unknown to you.

“I am”

Since: Jul 11

Location hidden

#39 Jan 9, 2012
humble brother wrote:
<quoted text>
Of course I cannot if you refuse to perform the scientific experiment how it is supposed to be performed.
So for now I don't care if you don't find any evidence. You're not really looking to find any, are you. So it is a waste of time with you.
I did once. I searched with purpose, and it failed.
Show us proof that can be analyzed by every individual, and people will believe you.
Show "proof" that must accept that God is truth to begin with, and people will call you crazy.
humble brother wrote:
If your Jim is omnipresent and omnipotent and the creator of the universe then you have just given another name for the great "I AM" who is existence itself.
If that is the case then your Jim exists. Jim is just a name.
But as you should know, all of existence can not fit into a finite being. So if you claim that Jim is a small being flying in the sky, then your Jim is paradox.
A flying weasel is the form that Jim chooses to use whenever someone dies and comes to heaven.
No paradox.
Jim is natural laws on Earth, but once you die and go to Heaven, his form is of a weasel.
You also acknowledge that "Jim" is just a name for existence.
What makes your definition of "God" any different from an imaginary weasel?
The ball is in your court.

“I am”

Since: Jul 11

Location hidden

#40 Jan 9, 2012
humble brother wrote:
If you don't have any statistical evidence for inference then your left with just a possibility for which the probability is unknown to you.
According to statistics, everything is a possibility.
Math does not in any way prove your imaginary friend's existence.
humble brother

Helsinki, Finland

#41 Jan 9, 2012
Being Alive,

I see you are on your way to become something like qBob here.

Have fun with that :)

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