"From Feminist Atheism to Biblical Truth" Tuesday, Sept. 23,

Jun 6, 2013 | Posted by: roboblogger | Full story: Elm Grove

Author Kitty Foth-Regner is the featured speaker at the Creation Science Society of Milwaukee's September meeting.

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Andre

Durban, South Africa

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#22
Jun 10, 2013
 

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emperorjohn wrote:
<quoted text> First of all marriage is not a organization. Second, organizations in this country are supposed to give leadership positions based on skills rather than gender. Your bible puts all women under the authority of their husbands regardless of their intelligence.
The issue was authority, not gender. You will notice my reference his/her
<quoted text> Telling a whole group of people that they should be subservient to another group is the same as telling then that they are inferior.
<quoted text> Too bad the all powerful, all knowing God did not think to establish women's rights. The bible is at the epicenter of the mistreatment of women. According to bible law, women must seek the permission of their husbands before disposing of their property, but no mention is made of men needing consent of their wives to do the same.
In the bible, men are allowed as many wives and concubines as they wish, but women are only allowed one.
In the bible, women must marry their rapist if unmarried.
In the bible, a non virgin daughter is legally condemned to be stoned.
In the bible, the prophet Judah forces his widowed daughter in law,Tamar to stay single so that she can be married to his third son who was only a child at the death of his brother(Tamar's husband) When Judah finds out that Tamar has slept with another man, he orders he to burnt until he finds out that he is the person she slept.
You are not suggesting that there is an objective "right" and "wrong"? By judging practices on a moral basis you are claiming this.

“I Am No One Else”

Since: Apr 12

Seattle

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#23
Jun 10, 2013
 

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Andre wrote:
<quoted text>You did not answer the question.
Please answer whether you have been only "good". As you will probably know, lying to a friend (or enemy)is not necessarily a crime punishable by law. Would you call lying to friend or anybody else that is not punishable by law wrong or actually not wrong?
By your argument, discriminating against woman in some Islamic countries is quite OK in those country as it not an offense in that country?(A women’s testimony is worth half a man’s in Islam)
I never said that the law determines what is "good." Just that you are misusing words. Murder is only breaking the law, it is not always wrong to murder, and not all other killing is good either. However, since you are basing your morals on an ideal that says stoning children is okay, your ethics are bad.
Andre

Durban, South Africa

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#24
Jun 11, 2013
 

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KittenKoder wrote:
<quoted text>
I never said that the law determines what is "good." Just that you are misusing words. Murder is only breaking the law, it is not always wrong to murder, and not all other killing is good either. However, since you are basing your morals on an ideal that says stoning children is okay, your ethics are bad.
Would you kindly answer the following questions please?
(1)Have you been only "good"? If you are honest, you will answer in the negative.
(2)Would you call lying to friend or anybody else that is not punishable by law wrong or actually not wrong?(Ignore punishable by law if you wish)
Why?
(3)Is discrimination against woman in Islamic Countries wrong? Why?
Andre

Durban, South Africa

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#25
Jun 11, 2013
 

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KittenKoder wrote:
<quoted text>
Just that you are misusing words. Murder is only breaking the law, it is not always wrong to murder,
Please justify when murder is justified and what basis do you use to decide?

Since: Jun 07

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#26
Jun 11, 2013
 
Andre wrote:
<quoted text>Please justify when murder is justified and what basis do you use to decide?
Did you know there's this thing called the army...

Since: Jun 07

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#27
Jun 11, 2013
 
Andre wrote:
<quoted text>Would you kindly answer the following questions please?
(1)Have you been only "good"? If you are honest, you will answer in the negative.
(2)Would you call lying to friend or anybody else that is not punishable by law wrong or actually not wrong?(Ignore punishable by law if you wish)
Why?
(3)Is discrimination against woman in Islamic Countries wrong? Why?
You need to prove your god before you talk about anything.

“I Am No One Else”

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#28
Jun 11, 2013
 

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Andre wrote:
<quoted text>Would you kindly answer the following questions please?
(1)Have you been only "good"? If you are honest, you will answer in the negative.
(2)Would you call lying to friend or anybody else that is not punishable by law wrong or actually not wrong?(Ignore punishable by law if you wish)
Why?
(3)Is discrimination against woman in Islamic Countries wrong? Why?
1. Yes I have only been "good," I have never broken my ethics, not once.
2. I would simply no longer trust them, don't care if it's within their ethics or not.
3. Anything that removes a person's choices and rights, yeah, it's wrong, as that is what my ethics state.

Now you answer, without quoting your religious books in any way and without referring to your imaginary friend either.

“I Am No One Else”

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#29
Jun 11, 2013
 

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Andre wrote:
<quoted text>Please justify when murder is justified and what basis do you use to decide?
Defense of an innocent life. Many times this will be against the law, and thus murder, to kill someone else to defend an innocent life but it is not wrong to do so.

“If God was real”

Since: Jan 10

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#30
Jun 11, 2013
 

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Andre wrote:
<quoted text>
The issue was authority, not gender. You will notice my reference his/her
Gender is apart of the issue since by Biblical law, men are made the bosses of women regardless of their capabilities.

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#31
Jun 12, 2013
 

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I love her book, Heaven without Her. What a wonderful story of God's redeeming power.:)
Andre

Durban, South Africa

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#32
Jun 13, 2013
 

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-Skeptic- wrote:
<quoted text>
Did you know there's this thing called the army...
As you will notice, KittenKoder mentioned that the murder she was referring to is “merely breaking the law”. This implies murder in terms of the generally accepted definition (Murder: the crime of unlawfully killing a person especially with malice and forethought) and not killing in war, self defence etc.
Andre

Durban, South Africa

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#33
Jun 13, 2013
 

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KittenKoder wrote:
<quoted text>
1. Yes I have only been "good," I have never broken my ethics, not once.
Now I don’t want to be rude, but it seems that you either have a very low standard of ethics or you are not being honest. If I only use only your few comments on this thread as indication -referring for instance to me as “being deluded”–(most people would regard that as somewhat less than polite, even a little insulting)- I come to the conclusion that you are at best being less than honest. By your response in (2) I would be justified to not trust you.
2. I would simply no longer trust them, don't care if it's within their ethics or not.
So according to you it is wrong, whether anybody else agrees with it or not? So in principle you can decide whatever you wish, and it is OK but “punish” people who disagrees with you, with their ethics based on their own beliefs,(which cannot be wrong according to your own argument)?
The present discussion by implication accepts that there is a right and wrong, destroying your own argument as well.
3. Anything that removes a person's choices and rights, yeah, it's wrong, as that is what my ethics state.
So it is right because you say so? That is handy. Why is it wrong to remove choice and rights? Any age limits to this?
Now you answer, without quoting your religious books in any way and without referring to your imaginary friend either.
Answer the same questions? Happy to.
You request me not to use the Bible knowing well that that is the standard I use? But here goes quickly.
1) No, I have not been “only good”. I can quote you daily examples of making sarcastic remarks, hurting people, losing my temper, not loving my wife as I ought to (too little time, when she needs it) etc etc.
2) I have told lies. By either directly telling a lie, or omitting to correct wrong assumptions etc.
3) Yes, it is wrong to discriminate against woman, assuming her to be of a lesser value. Woman have exactly the same value as men, but have a different role to men in marriage - based on my standard, the Bible. But even if I decided to discriminate “unfairly” against woman, you cannot judge it to be wrong as you cannot impose your standard on me ?
Andre

Durban, South Africa

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#34
Jun 13, 2013
 

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emperorjohn wrote:
<quoted text>
Gender is apart of the issue since by Biblical law, men are made the bosses of women regardless of their capabilities.
Men are only appointed as head of the family with the woman not subordinate in value as a human being in the eyes of their Creator. In no non-spiritual sphere are there are any prescriptions about the role of a woman as having to submit to men.
You will notice that when I referred to the role of a husband, his is one of responsibility and not one of dominance. This can easily be seen from the relevant texts
Eph 5:22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.
Eph 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
Eph 5:24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.
Eph 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
Eph 5:28 So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.
Eph 5:29 For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:
1Pe 3:7 Likewise, ye husbands, dwell with them according to knowledge, giving honour (esteem, dignity) unto the wife, as unto the weaker vessel, and as being heirs together of the grace of life; that your prayers be not hindered.
Col 3:19 Husbands, love your wives, and be not bitter against them.
Pro 31:10 Who can find a virtuous woman? for her price is far above rubies.
You will have to conclude on the basis of the above that the husband is in a way the one being expected to be sacrificial in his role. The position ascribed to him here is not one to lord it over the wife, but to honour her.
So despite claims of the supposed tyrannical men to whom woman are expected to be obedient/subservient, the husband is to love and cherish his wife, care for her, give himself for her and allow her to use all her abilities, skills.
It is such a pity that the question posed is based on erroneous information. But I accept that you may never have had the Bible and the Gospel properly explained to you – hence your views.

“I Am No One Else”

Since: Apr 12

Seattle

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#35
Jun 13, 2013
 

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Andre wrote:
<quoted text>
Now I don’t want to be rude, but it seems that you either have a very low standard of ethics or you are not being honest. If I only use only your few comments on this thread as indication -referring for instance to me as “being deluded”–(most people would regard that as somewhat less than polite, even a little insulting)- I come to the conclusion that you are at best being less than honest. By your response in (2) I would be justified to not trust you.
<quoted text>So according to you it is wrong, whether anybody else agrees with it or not? So in principle you can decide whatever you wish, and it is OK but “punish” people who disagrees with you, with their ethics based on their own beliefs,(which cannot be wrong according to your own argument)?
The present discussion by implication accepts that there is a right and wrong, destroying your own argument as well.
<quoted text>So it is right because you say so? That is handy. Why is it wrong to remove choice and rights? Any age limits to this?
<quoted text>Answer the same questions? Happy to.
You request me not to use the Bible knowing well that that is the standard I use? But here goes quickly.
1) No, I have not been “only good”. I can quote you daily examples of making sarcastic remarks, hurting people, losing my temper, not loving my wife as I ought to (too little time, when she needs it) etc etc.
2) I have told lies. By either directly telling a lie, or omitting to correct wrong assumptions etc.
3) Yes, it is wrong to discriminate against woman, assuming her to be of a lesser value. Woman have exactly the same value as men, but have a different role to men in marriage - based on my standard, the Bible. But even if I decided to discriminate “unfairly” against woman, you cannot judge it to be wrong as you cannot impose your standard on me ?
So then you need a babysitter, also, I was honest, I have not once gone against my ethics which are above yours, by a lot. You support stoning children, I do not.

“If God was real”

Since: Jan 10

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#36
Jun 13, 2013
 

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Andre wrote:
<quoted text>
Men are only appointed as head of the family with the woman not subordinate in value as a human being in the eyes of their Creator.
When you make sone a head of something, you are giving them more value then others. That is why our pres has secret service while the rest of us do not. The fact that women are disqualified from this role based solely on their gender confirms my statement that the bible treats women as inferior to men.
Andre wrote:
<quoted text
In no non-spiritual sphere are there are any prescriptions about the role of a woman as having to submit to men.
That is a straight out lie. The bible gives men property rights and sexual rights over their wives. women have to seek the consent of their husbands to enter into binding contracts, no obligation is needed for the vice versa. men have the rights to put their wives to death for adultery, but not vice versa.
Andre wrote:
<quoted text>
You will notice that when I referred to the role of a husband, his is one of responsibility and not one of dominance. This can easily be seen from the relevant texts
The bible makes it clear that the husband's role is rule over his wife. Responsibility and dominance can go hand in hand. In the bible, the prophet Judah forces his widowed daughter in law, Tamar, to go through years of celibate widowhood so that she could marry his youngest son. When he finds out that she has had sex, he orders her to be burnt until she informs him that it was him that she slept with. That story clearly indicates the level of power men had over women.
Andre wrote:
<quoted text>
It is such a pity that the question posed is based on erroneous information. But I accept that you may never have had the Bible and the Gospel properly explained to you – hence your views.
My question is not based on erroneous info. My question is based on me reading the bible. The bible treats women like second class citizens. Women must get permission to enter into contracts, women are not allowed to lose their virginity before marriage, women are given less property rights then men. Men can have concubines but women cannot have lovers.

“If God was real”

Since: Jan 10

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#37
Jun 13, 2013
 
KittenKoder wrote:
<quoted text>
So then you need a babysitter, also, I was honest, I have not once gone against my ethics which are above yours, by a lot. You support stoning children, I do not.
You see he keeps doing this dance when we debate on the bible's view of women's rights? He keep saying that the bible gives men authority over women so that they could be responsible for women as if adult women needed to be supervised like children. It reminds me of when the Southern plantation owners would justify slavery by claiming that they showed love and that they were responsible for their slaves.
Oh shyt, slavery is legal in the bible!

“I Am No One Else”

Since: Apr 12

Seattle

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#38
Jun 13, 2013
 

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emperorjohn wrote:
<quoted text>
You see he keeps doing this dance when we debate on the bible's view of women's rights? He keep saying that the bible gives men authority over women so that they could be responsible for women as if adult women needed to be supervised like children. It reminds me of when the Southern plantation owners would justify slavery by claiming that they showed love and that they were responsible for their slaves.
Oh shyt, slavery is legal in the bible!
Slavery is commanded in the bible.

“If God was real”

Since: Jan 10

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#39
Jun 13, 2013
 

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KittenKoder wrote:
<quoted text>
Slavery is commanded in the bible.
I want to see what dance moves our Christian friend is going to do in order to illustrate the love and responsibility slave masters were supposed to have for their property. One of my pastors justified slavery in the bible by saying that the slave master was supposed to show love to his property and that cruelty to slave was unknown in those days. He said that in those days slaves were treated like family. What a piece of shyt he was to lie like that. Slavery was worse in the biblical days than it was in modern america. The Romans forced their slaves into gladiatorial rings and in other parts of the world, slaves could made into eunuchs.
Prophet Abraham raped his slave and then became a dead beat dad to her son. In another story, similar to that of Lot, a man forced his slave concubine out his house to be ravished by the mob. When they were done with her, he cut her into 12 pieces and sent her body parts to the 12 tribes.
Andre

Durban, South Africa

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#40
Jun 13, 2013
 

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KittenKoder wrote:
<quoted text>
So then you need a babysitter, also, I was honest, I have not once gone against my ethics which are above yours, by a lot. You support stoning children, I do not.
At last! you agree that you have a standard that allows you to compare your ethics and mine. Thank you! If you claim your ethics are of a higher standard, you admit there is an external standard. May I know what this standard is?
Andre

Durban, South Africa

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#41
Jun 13, 2013
 
KittenKoder wrote:
<quoted text>
You support stoning children, I do not.
Really? You are totally misinformed and as I have come to realise, easily jumping to conclusions based on no or false evidence.

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