Since: Feb 13

Los Angeles, CA

#1898 Jul 15, 2013
polymath257 wrote:
<quoted text>
LeMaitre did not claim what you think he claimed. Even if the BB theory is the last word (it isn't), it would not prove the universe was caused and LeMaitre knew and acknowledged that.
I am very familiar with LeMaitre, his ideas, and how he chastised the Pope when he made the first cause argument as applied to the Big Bang.
------

If you are so familiar with Lemaitre why don't you recognize his being a theist Catholic priest? Is it because you find absurd that a theist should be the one to be paid homage to for having revolutionized the scientific world and not an atheist? I know how embarrassing it was for atheists but hey, you guys are to blame for
not thinking straight.

“Think&Care”

Since: Oct 07

Location hidden

#1899 Jul 15, 2013
Shibolet wrote:
<quoted text>
------
If you are so familiar with Lemaitre why don't you recognize his being a theist Catholic priest? Is it because you find absurd that a theist should be the one to be paid homage to for having revolutionized the scientific world and not an atheist? I know how embarrassing it was for atheists but hey, you guys are to blame for
not thinking straight.
yes, of course I realize we was a Catholic priest. So? As he himself said, that has NOTHING to do with his science, nor to do with the Big Bang theory.

“Quantum Junctn: Use Both Lanes”

Since: Dec 06

Tulsa, Oklahoma USofA

#1900 Jul 15, 2013
Shibolet wrote:
<quoted text>
----
And you seem to have a hard time to find an answer to my questions.
You don't actually **ask** questions-- you preach, and expect everyone to fall over and accept your preaching as a given.

That is not a question.
LCN Llin

United States

#1901 Jul 15, 2013
-Skeptic- wrote:
<quoted text>
Logic is not evidence, logic is a set of rules that must be followed for a proof to be reasoned and therefore valid.
Stupid people should not even enter such discussions when they don't even understand basic ideas like logic.
LOL

Since: Nov 12

Location hidden

#1902 Jul 15, 2013
Shibolet wrote:
<quoted text>
----
I don't have time for childish games. If you don't have a answer to my questions just say you don't know. That's all.
What are the questions?

Since: Feb 13

Los Angeles, CA

#1903 Jul 17, 2013
polymath257 wrote:
<quoted text>
yes, of course I realize we was a Catholic priest. So? As he himself said, that has NOTHING to do with his science, nor to do with the Big Bang theory.
----

What do you mean that he reported the discovery just for fun? Whatever as long as it was taken seriously by the cosmologists.

Since: Feb 13

Los Angeles, CA

#1904 Jul 17, 2013
Bob of Quantum-Faith wrote:
<quoted text>
You don't actually **ask** questions-- you preach, and expect everyone to fall over and accept your preaching as a given.
That is not a question.
-----

Perhaps you do not understand what a question is. Let me try again.
According to Carl Sagan "The BB began our universe." If the universe had a beginning something caused it to begin. Since according to Logic something cannot cause itself to exist, here is my hundreds of times repeated question: Isn't the Primal Cause
implied as an alternative to the existence of the universe?

Since: Feb 13

Los Angeles, CA

#1905 Jul 17, 2013
EmpAtheist wrote:
<quoted text>
What are the questions?
-------

See post 1904.

“Turning coffee into theorems”

Since: Dec 06

Trapped inside a Klein Bottle

#1906 Jul 17, 2013

“Think&Care”

Since: Oct 07

Location hidden

#1907 Jul 17, 2013
Shibolet wrote:
<quoted text>
-----
Perhaps you do not understand what a question is. Let me try again.
According to Carl Sagan "The BB began our universe." If the universe had a beginning something caused it to begin.
And, to repeat myself, this is an incorrect deduction.
Since according to Logic something cannot cause itself to exist, here is my hundreds of times repeated question: Isn't the Primal Cause
implied as an alternative to the existence of the universe?
No. Causality isn't universal. There are many uncaused events *in* the universe. So it does not follow that there was a single primal cause outside of the universe. In fact, there are many 'uncaused causes' inside the universe. Your argument fails.

And, once again, there is a difference between causing itself to exist and having no cause at all. In the first, the number of causes is 1. In the second, the number of causes is 0. My claim is that the universe is uncaused: the number of causes is 0.

Since: Nov 12

Location hidden

#1908 Jul 17, 2013
Shibolet wrote:
<quoted text> Isn't the Primal Cause
implied as an alternative to the existence of the universe?
Honestly, I don't understand the question. An alternative to the existence of the universe? Like either the universe exists or there was a primal cause? The word "alternative" throws me off. Could you possibly re-word the question? Because I feel like you are implying that if the universe didn't exist, there would be a primal cause... Which I seriously doubt you are implying.

“Quantum Junctn: Use Both Lanes”

Since: Dec 06

Tulsa, Oklahoma USofA

#1909 Jul 18, 2013
Shibolet wrote:
<quoted text>
-----
Perhaps you do not understand what a question is. Let me try again.
According to Carl Sagan "The BB began our universe."
True enough.
Shibolet wrote:
If the universe had a beginning something caused it to begin.
False: false "conclusion" based on faulty premise.

Many things in the universe begin without a cause.

The Universe itself is likely one such.
Shibolet wrote:
Since according to Logic something cannot cause itself to exist,
False again! Who's "logic" would this be? You never heard of recursion?

In programming-- you can use recursive calls, and literally cause a subroutine to cause itself.

So in logic, at least, you are wrong.

That's two of 3 you got wrong.
Shibolet wrote:
here is my hundreds of times repeated question: Isn't the Primal Cause
implied as an alternative to the existence of the universe?
Your question is without merit, as you failed to establish the initial conditions it requires.

Nice try, though.

“Turning coffee into theorems”

Since: Dec 06

Trapped inside a Klein Bottle

#1910 Jul 18, 2013
EmpAtheist wrote:
<quoted text>
Honestly, I don't understand the question. An alternative to the existence of the universe? Like either the universe exists or there was a primal cause? The word "alternative" throws me off. Could you possibly re-word the question? Because I feel like you are implying that if the universe didn't exist, there would be a primal cause... Which I seriously doubt you are implying.
I agree. The "alternative to the existence of the universe" would be "the non-existence of the universe". Since the universe clearly exists, the alternative clearly doesn't.

Since: Nov 12

Location hidden

#1911 Jul 18, 2013
Darwins Stepchild wrote:
<quoted text>
I agree. The "alternative to the existence of the universe" would be "the non-existence of the universe". Since the universe clearly exists, the alternative clearly doesn't.
Exactly... So I'm sure that can't be what she/he means.

“Educating the uneducated”

Since: Aug 12

Montreal

#1912 Jul 18, 2013
Shibolet wrote:
<quoted text>----

I don't have time for childish games. If you don't have a answer to my questions just say you don't know. That's all.
Good, you don't have a response and accept the fact that you are wrong.
Thinking

York, UK

#1913 Jul 19, 2013
Oh no... if the universe doesn't exist, where am I going to store my recycling?
Darwins Stepchild wrote:
<quoted text>
I agree. The "alternative to the existence of the universe" would be "the non-existence of the universe". Since the universe clearly exists, the alternative clearly doesn't.

Since: Feb 13

Los Angeles, CA

#1914 Jul 19, 2013
polymath257 wrote:
<quoted text>
And, to repeat myself, this is an incorrect deduction.
<quoted text>
No. Causality isn't universal. There are many uncaused events *in* the universe. So it does not follow that there was a single primal cause outside of the universe. In fact, there are many 'uncaused causes' inside the universe. Your argument fails.
And, once again, there is a difference between causing itself to exist and having no cause at all. In the first, the number of causes is 1. In the second, the number of causes is 0. My claim is that the universe is uncaused: the number of causes is 0.
------

Okay, let's make this really simple: Give me an example of something uncaused. Thank you.

Since: Feb 13

Los Angeles, CA

#1915 Jul 19, 2013
EmpAtheist wrote:
<quoted text>
Honestly, I don't understand the question. An alternative to the existence of the universe? Like either the universe exists or there was a primal cause? The word "alternative" throws me off. Could you possibly re-word the question? Because I feel like you are implying that if the universe didn't exist, there would be a primal cause... Which I seriously doubt you are implying.
-----

There is no question about the existence of the universe. It has been naturally proved with the existence of matter. Alternative means a probability or another option. The question here is to consider the alternative of the Primal Cause or the uncaused alternative. Since the BB has been taken as the strongest evidence ever for the beginning of the universe, the alternative of the Primal Cause has been strengthened.
Thinking

York, UK

#1916 Jul 19, 2013
Descartes had other ideas.
Shibolet wrote:
<quoted text>
-----
There is no question about the existence of the universe.

“Think&Care”

Since: Oct 07

Location hidden

#1917 Jul 19, 2013
Shibolet wrote:
<quoted text>
------
Okay, let's make this really simple: Give me an example of something uncaused. Thank you.
The time for the decay of a muon.

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