A Proof That God Exists

“Quantum Junctn: Use Both Lanes”

Since: Dec 06

Tulsa, Oklahoma USofA

#1817 Jul 5, 2013
Very Cynical Person wrote:
<quoted text>
Not if everything needs a cause.
It's recursion, I tell's ya'... Gawd caused himself, in a bit'o recursive flippery.

Thas' what it is, I betcha...

<laughing my azz off here>

:)

“Think&Care”

Since: Oct 07

Location hidden

#1818 Jul 6, 2013
Shibolet wrote:
<quoted text>
-----
Why don't you teach all the cosmologists who believe that the BB demonstrated the evidence that the universe had a beginning? For more than 2000 years they believed the Aristotelian mistake that the universe was eternal. How can something eternal be caused? How sad you all struggle to uphold the fallacy of Atheism!
First, the BB doesn't *prove* the universe had a beginning. The BB theory works quite well for times past about a nanosecond into the current expansion, but we *know* it will fail before that. How do we know this? Because the basic BB theory is not a quantum theory and quantum effects become more relevant as we go back further in time.

Second, when we include quantum effects in the picture, it turns out that the BB may not have been the beginning of *everything*. Instead, it is the beginning of the current expansion phase of *part* of the larger multiverse. Depending on the details, the multiverse did NOT have a beginning, so your argument fails.

Third, even in those quantum gravity theories that have the BB as the beginning of everything, there was not a 'previous' cause because time itself began with the BB (as opposed to the multiverse theories which do have previous times).

Fourth, when quantum effects are included, causality itself is problematical: quantum mechanics is not a causal theory. Because of this, your argument fails even by known physics.

“Think&Care”

Since: Oct 07

Location hidden

#1819 Jul 6, 2013
Shibolet wrote:
For more than 2000 years they believed the Aristotelian mistake that the universe was eternal. How can something eternal be caused?
First, Aristotle believed in several different types of causality. Only the 'immediate' causality would correspond to our modern notions. But Aristotle also saw the 'form'(roughly the shape) of an item as being a cause. Also, the material cause was, essentially, what the item was made from. Most relevant to your question is the idea of 'ultimate causality', which the Christians picked up on and loved. This notion of causality refers to the *purpose* of the item. Because of this, ultimate causality was thought of as being a causality backwards in time, or even a sort of timeless causality.

Like I said, not at all what the modern view is of the matter. Yes, Aristotle believed in an eternal universe that was ultimately caused (given a purpose) by a 'prime mover' that eternally contemplated 'beauty and truth', but *inspired*(caused) the material world into being.

“Think&Care”

Since: Oct 07

Location hidden

#1820 Jul 6, 2013
Shibolet wrote:
<quoted text>
-------
He would not be God if He did it. Be logical!
But you cannot assume the existence of God if you are attempting to prove that very existence. You claim that *everything* has a cause, but that God is uncaused (by definition). That alone shows that no God exists. Be logical!

The only alternative is to allow that there are uncaused things (such as God), which *still* does not prove your basic claim because now the whole argument fails (there may be many 'first causes').

“Think&Care”

Since: Oct 07

Location hidden

#1821 Jul 6, 2013
Shibolet wrote:
<quoted text>
------
Again? You guys don't understand esoteric Logic.
That is because 'esoteric logic' is illogical.

Since: May 10

Location hidden

#1822 Jul 6, 2013
polymath257 wrote:
<quoted text>
First, the BB doesn't *prove* the universe had a beginning. The BB theory works quite well for times past about a nanosecond into the current expansion, but we *know* it will fail before that. How do we know this? Because the basic BB theory is not a quantum theory and quantum effects become more relevant as we go back further in time.
Second, when we include quantum effects in the picture, it turns out that the BB may not have been the beginning of *everything*. Instead, it is the beginning of the current expansion phase of *part* of the larger multiverse. Depending on the details, the multiverse did NOT have a beginning, so your argument fails.
Third, even in those quantum gravity theories that have the BB as the beginning of everything, there was not a 'previous' cause because time itself began with the BB (as opposed to the multiverse theories which do have previous times).
Fourth, when quantum effects are included, causality itself is problematical: quantum mechanics is not a causal theory. Because of this, your argument fails even by known physics.
You are a liar and an idiot.

You have no evidence whatsoever to prove "time" began with the BB.

The "time" you refer to is universe time, which is a mental construction.

This "time" did not exist until there were "minds" to form the mental construct.

Therefore, TIME DID NOT BEGIN WITH THE BIG BANG.

The rest is your assumption.

The only difference between your understanding of physics and a Shit Sandwich is two slices of bread.

Since: May 10

Location hidden

#1824 Jul 6, 2013
polymath257 wrote:
<quoted text>
But you cannot assume the existence of God if you are attempting to prove that very existence. You claim that *everything* has a cause, but that God is uncaused (by definition). That alone shows that no God exists. Be logical!
The only alternative is to allow that there are uncaused things (such as God), which *still* does not prove your basic claim because now the whole argument fails (there may be many 'first causes').
Everything that begins to exist has a cause.

A god that "begins to exist" would not be a god.

I have explained that to you about a hundred times. You are too dense to grasp it.

The writer disbelieves the same god you disbelieve - "created" god.

You need to stick to your Infinite-Length-Donut Theory, or explaining how a stick can be cut into infinite positive lengths.

Did you get that from Aristotle,...or The Amazing Randy?

Since: Jun 07

Location hidden

#1825 Jul 6, 2013
Buck Crick wrote:
<quoted text>
You are a liar and an idiot.
You have no evidence whatsoever to prove "time" began with the BB.
The "time" you refer to is universe time, which is a mental construction.
This "time" did not exist until there were "minds" to form the mental construct.
Therefore, TIME DID NOT BEGIN WITH THE BIG BANG.
The rest is your assumption.
The only difference between your understanding of physics and a Shit Sandwich is two slices of bread.
Criminal creationist with no proof of god who doesn't know when to f*ck off right back to the discovery institute whence he came.

Since: Jun 07

Location hidden

#1826 Jul 6, 2013
Buck Crick wrote:
<quoted text>
Everything that begins to exist has a cause.
Cowardly theist troll with no proof of the god he's lying about.

“Fortes Fortuna Juvat, ”

Since: Dec 09

Wichita. Ks.

#1827 Jul 6, 2013
Bob of Quantum-Faith wrote:
<quoted text>
It's recursion, I tell's ya'... Gawd caused himself, in a bit'o recursive flippery.
Thas' what it is, I betcha...
<laughing my azz off here>
:)
Did you see “Shibolet” response.
Shibolet wrote:
<quoted text>
------
Again? You guys don't understand esoteric Logic.
Shibolet thinks that small insignificant thinking produces greater logic by small like minded groups. Esoteric groups allow the use of circular logic as the bases for truth.

Since: Nov 12

Location hidden

#1828 Jul 6, 2013
Buck Crick wrote:
<quoted text>
Everything that begins to exist has a cause.
A god that "begins to exist" would not be a god.
I have explained that to you about a hundred times. You are too dense to grasp it.
The writer disbelieves the same god you disbelieve - "created" god.
You need to stick to your Infinite-Length-Donut Theory, or explaining how a stick can be cut into infinite positive lengths.
Did you get that from Aristotle,...or The Amazing Randy?
You should educate yourself on 2 things:
1. Special pleading
2. The difference between creatio ex nihilo and creatio ex materia.

No rebuttals needed once you learn what these are and why they are important to know.

“Think&Care”

Since: Oct 07

Location hidden

#1829 Jul 6, 2013
Buck Crick wrote:
<quoted text>
Everything that begins to exist has a cause.
yes, you make that claim, but supply no proof of that claim. In fact, the fact that quantum mechanics is an acausal theory that fits the observations suggests strongly that the universe is acausal.
A god that "begins to exist" would not be a god.
Right, so to prove that there is a god, you have to prove there is something that exists that does not begin to exist. You have not shown even that.

“Think&Care”

Since: Oct 07

Location hidden

#1830 Jul 6, 2013
Buck Crick wrote:
<quoted text>
You are a liar and an idiot.
You have no evidence whatsoever to prove "time" began with the BB.
The "time" you refer to is universe time, which is a mental construction.
Only in the same sense that space, matter, energy, and existence are mental constructs.
This "time" did not exist until there were "minds" to form the mental construct.
BS. Time existed well before there were minds.

Since: Jun 13

Location hidden

#1831 Jul 7, 2013
Shibolet wrote:
<quoted text>
------
Again? You guys don't understand esoteric Logic.
Why can you people never pay attention to a question mark???????? When someone asks a question, and the other person has an answer, they tend to answer it. I have no desire to go into esotericism simply because it has no merit either.

“Quantum Junctn: Use Both Lanes”

Since: Dec 06

Tulsa, Oklahoma USofA

#1832 Jul 7, 2013
Very Cynical Person wrote:
<quoted text>
Did you see “Shibolet” response.
<quoted text>
Shibolet thinks that small insignificant thinking produces greater logic by small like minded groups. Esoteric groups allow the use of circular logic as the bases for truth.
Of course!

They really don't get it, do they?

“Think&Care”

Since: Oct 07

Location hidden

#1833 Jul 7, 2013
Buck Crick wrote:
<quoted text>
You are a liar and an idiot.
You have no evidence whatsoever to prove "time" began with the BB.
Did you even read what I posted?

“Fortes Fortuna Juvat, ”

Since: Dec 09

Wichita. Ks.

#1834 Jul 7, 2013
Bob of Quantum-Faith wrote:
<quoted text>
Of course!
They really don't get it, do they?
No they do not they are clueless.

“Quantum Junctn: Use Both Lanes”

Since: Dec 06

Tulsa, Oklahoma USofA

#1835 Jul 7, 2013
polymath257 wrote:
<quoted text>
Did you even read what I posted?
Buck (up-a) Creek seldom reads anything but his own propwash.

So no, I doubt very much he bothered to read your post.

Why would he? It would clearly refute his coveted world-hate-view...

... he can't have **that**.

<heh>

“Quantum Junctn: Use Both Lanes”

Since: Dec 06

Tulsa, Oklahoma USofA

#1836 Jul 7, 2013
Very Cynical Person wrote:
<quoted text>No they do not they are clueless.
Q: What do you call a god-botherer who finally wakes up, and understands one of the myriad of clues about reality?

A: A person who just realized he's(she's) an atheist ...

:D

“Educating the uneducated”

Since: Aug 12

Montreal

#1837 Jul 8, 2013
Bob of Quantum-Faith wrote:
<quoted text>Buck (up-a) Creek seldom reads anything but his own propwash.

So no, I doubt very much he bothered to read your post.

Why would he? It would clearly refute his coveted world-hate-view...

... he can't have **that**.

<heh>
What gets me the most is that these people are just saying "god did it" without any thought at all and without any evidence at all.

Then they say we're the ones who are wrong.

Tell me when this thread is updated:

Subscribe Now Add to my Tracker

Add your comments below

Characters left: 4000

Please note by submitting this form you acknowledge that you have read the Terms of Service and the comment you are posting is in compliance with such terms. Be polite. Inappropriate posts may be removed by the moderator. Send us your feedback.

Atheism Discussions

Title Updated Last By Comments
News "Science vs. Religion: What Scientists Really T... (Jan '12) 10 min Subduction Zone 57,928
News Quotes from Famous Freethinkers (Aug '12) 1 hr Hedonist Heretic 1,919
News Atheism, for Good Reason, Fears Questions (Jun '09) 1 hr Hedonist Heretic 27,252
News Nonsense of a high order: The confused world of... 8 hr Subduction Zone 1,782
Atheist Humor (Aug '09) 9 hr Bob of Quantum-Faith 132
News The Atheist Delusion': Ray Comfort's Masterpiece (Jun '16) 15 hr Eagle 12 78
Religion is the cause of war and most suffering... (Apr '16) 15 hr Eagle 12 160
More from around the web