A Proof That God Exists

“Think&Care”

Since: Oct 07

Location hidden

#408 Apr 10, 2013
Buck Crick wrote:
<quoted text>
You don't understand the logic.
Nothing that begins to exist is uncaused. If it begins to exist, it has a cause.
Prove it. Define your terms and prove that anything that begins to exist must have a cause.
You are wrong about time. Time, as we know it, is a product of the known universe. A cause of the universe would not necessarily be contingent on universe time, because it is not the universe.[/QQUOTE]
Exactly, time is part of the universe, but it is also implicit in the term causality. So there cannot be a cause for the universe.

[QUOTE]This is why the infinite regression argument cannot be applied to a cause of the universe, as in "what caused the cause?", because without time we cannot conclude that the cause began to exist in time, therefore, it does not require a cause.
And if the universe did not 'begin to exist in time' because time itself is part of the universe, then the universe requires no cause.

Richardfs

“Formerly "Richard"”

Since: Mar 12

In the beginning e=mc^2

#409 Apr 10, 2013
Shibolet wrote:
<quoted text>
------
Sometimes I get a little impatient but I always give my opponent the benefit of the doubt. First of all, let's not use the word
"proof" because it has become too childish. Evidence is a better choice.
1) Since the universe could not have caused itself into existence that's a prime evidence for the existence of the Primal Cause. I have the word of king David to confirm my assertion in Psalm 19:1. I am sorry, I know you guys don't like Biblical quotations. It just came out of my mind almost involuntarily.
2) That It has to exist is irrelevant. To have to anything is akin to being subject to something. That's not of the Primal Mover.
3) Since the Primal Cause is not matter, It could not have been caused into existence. Even if It had been matter it would be illogical for something to cause itself into existence because it did not exist to act upon itself. Jesus himself said that God is a
Spirit which can be perceived only in a spiritual manner and not demonstrated mathematically.(John 4:24) Gosh! Again, sorry!
4) The universe is made out of matter; since matter cannot cause itself into existence, obviously the universe was caused.
As you can see, rather you have failed to understand every time I have logically explained these evidences to you. But that's okay, some people understand fast; others take a little longer.
Oh gee, yet another godbot who knows nothing about Physics, Chemistry, Biology or any science so "goddidit".

“Quantum Junctn: Use Both Lanes”

Since: Dec 06

Tulsa, Oklahoma USofA

#410 Apr 10, 2013
Buck Crick wrote:
<quoted text>
Accepting, even provisionally, a logical impossibility makes no sense.
If A causes B, the pre-existence of A is required.
Therefore, A cannot cause A, since A cannot both exist and not exist.
Law of Identity.
There is no such thing as "Law of Identity" you ignorant buffoon.

You are correct so far as you go.

Your failure, is that you ASSume that the whole expression is fundamentally required: causality.

If there is no time? There cannot possibly be causality, as this requires time.

Prior to the universe's expansion? There was no time-- thus it is impossible to have a cause.

You also fail to recognize that in the universe, there are many-many uncaused events. It happens all the time at the quantum level.

But all of that? Is literally beyond your feeble attempts to understand.

Prediction:

Your "response" (if you have one) will be in the form of some pathetic attempt to insult.

“Quantum Junctn: Use Both Lanes”

Since: Dec 06

Tulsa, Oklahoma USofA

#411 Apr 10, 2013
Buck Crick wrote:
<quoted text>
That makes one of us.
Of course-- you lack all the requisite skills to be classified as fully human.

A sense of humor is obviously not on the short list of the few you do possess.
Amused

Burlington, MA

#412 Apr 10, 2013
Shibolet wrote:
<quoted text>
---------
You ain't seen nothing yet.
If you get any denser, you may become your own black hole.

“Quantum Junctn: Use Both Lanes”

Since: Dec 06

Tulsa, Oklahoma USofA

#413 Apr 10, 2013
Buck Crick wrote:
<quoted text>
You don't understand the logic.
Irony meters blowing everywhere at this one.

LMAO!
Buck Crick wrote:
Nothing that begins to exist is uncaused. If it begins to exist, it has a cause.
False. Since you are false? The rest of your rant is also false.

Dismissed.

“Quantum Junctn: Use Both Lanes”

Since: Dec 06

Tulsa, Oklahoma USofA

#414 Apr 10, 2013
Buck Crick wrote:
The serpent was right wrote:
<quoted text>
But, acceptance in the BB is not required for atheism.
At it's core, atheism is simply a lack of belief in a god. My 13 year old son is an atheist. He knows very little about the BB theory. That doesn't make him less of an atheist.
----------
Wrong, Serp.
Atheism is the belief that their is no god.
Wrong. Once again? You are as wrong as it is possible to be.

Dismissed.

“Quantum Junctn: Use Both Lanes”

Since: Dec 06

Tulsa, Oklahoma USofA

#415 Apr 10, 2013
NightSerf wrote:
One of the qualities of a first rate intelligence is the ability to adapt to new information or persuasive logic by changing one's views. As far as I know, Buck has never done this even once. One pr the most persistent qualities of a second or third rate mind is a tendency to stubbornly cling to beliefs even in the face of changing data or better logic. that fits Buck to a tee.
Correct-- buck is at best, a kind of sub-human, and lacks many of the normal human attributes.

His short list of attributes does not list "thinking" or "humor" anywhere.

But at the top of the list are "full of hate" and "dogmatic".... with "massively bloated ego" in there two.

It's difficult to determine which one of those is #1, though.

“Quantum Junctn: Use Both Lanes”

Since: Dec 06

Tulsa, Oklahoma USofA

#416 Apr 10, 2013
Buck Crick wrote:
<quoted text>
PS - show me some of this alleged "persuasive logic".
I haven't seen any here.
Of course not!

You lack the requisite thinking skills to determine what is, and what is not logic.

Thus you are supremely unqualified to determine if the logic is persuasive or simply false.

But you do demonstrate a massively bloated ego, typical of those who are ...

.... insane.

Pity.

“Quantum Junctn: Use Both Lanes”

Since: Dec 06

Tulsa, Oklahoma USofA

#417 Apr 10, 2013
Buck Crick wrote:
<quoted text>
Excuse me if I don't cooperate with people who break in my house to take my property.
I mean when I had some.
Indeed. Your confession of being homeless does go hand-in-glove with your other failed attributes.

“Quantum Junctn: Use Both Lanes”

Since: Dec 06

Tulsa, Oklahoma USofA

#418 Apr 10, 2013
polymath257 wrote:
<quoted text>
Which means that time is active, so causes only exist inside the universe.
Yep.

“Quantum Junctn: Use Both Lanes”

Since: Dec 06

Tulsa, Oklahoma USofA

#419 Apr 10, 2013
Amused wrote:
<quoted text>
If you get any denser, you may become your own black hole.
LMAO!

Nice one.
John K

Akron, OH

#420 Apr 10, 2013
Time is just the distance between two events. So before time began there could not be any events. So no cause to create the effect.

I think I am getting the hang of this!

Since: Feb 13

Tarzana, CA

#421 Apr 10, 2013
polymath257 wrote:
<quoted text>
That the universe cannot cause itself shows one of two possibilities: either the universe is uncaused OR it is caused by something (or somethings) other than the universe. You have not shown the first is impossible. Also, even in the case of the second, you have not shown the cause of the universe is, itself, uncaused. So you have not shown the existence of a 'Primal Cause'.
<quoted text>
Which you have not shown exists.
<quoted text>
Why does this follow? Only matter is caused? What about energy? time?
<quoted text>
Once again, I completely agree that a thing cannot cause itself. That means any thing is either uncaused or is caused by something else.
Jesus himself said that God is a
<quoted text>
So you do not have a proof.
<quoted text>
That does not follow. It only shows that everything *in* the universe is either uncaused or is caused by something else. In fact, all causes we know about are in the universe, so it is illogical to deduce a cause outside of the universe.
<quoted text>
There is a difference between not understanding and not agreeing. We understand your argument quite well. But we also know that the argument doesn't manage to prove what it sets out to prove. In fact, it fails at every stage.
You have made many assumptions about causality here: that matter requires a cause, that non-matter does not require a cause, that not being self-caused means there is a cause, etc. the problem is that your whole argument fails because causality requires *time* and time is part of our universe. So causality of the universe is non-nonsensical.
--------

In order not to waste our time with idle repetitions let me just say to you that energy is an accident of matter either present or priorly produced by.

Since: Feb 13

Tarzana, CA

#422 Apr 10, 2013
The Dude wrote:
<quoted text>
If "He" is no matter then he does not matter. He is not intelligent for intelligence requires matter. There are no exceptions.
----------

Only for atheists who cannot think in a spiritual manner.

Since: Feb 13

Tarzana, CA

#423 Apr 10, 2013
The serpent was right wrote:
<quoted text>
But, acceptance in the BB is not required for atheism.
At it's core, atheism is simply a lack of belief in a god. My 13 year old son is an atheist. He knows very little about the BB theory. That doesn't make him less of an atheist.
My point to you, is simply this. Your idea that there has to be a god, is built on assumptions. Also, it makes claims that contradict itself. If all things have to have a beginning, than your god has to have a beginning. If you claim that he doesn't, than it is just as easy to say the universe doesn't. If you say the universe must have been caused, I can just as easily insist that your god must have been caused. You offer no other evidence for this god other than "the universe must have had a beginning". It is a weak premise to begin with, and easily falls into a "god of the gaps" category.
------

Perhaps because you do not understand that humans enjoy the attribute of spirituality which the irrational animal doesn't. Give yourself the credit to be human and learn how to use that attribute too.

Since: Feb 13

Tarzana, CA

#424 Apr 10, 2013
The serpent was right wrote:
<quoted text>
Hey, this is YOUR theory. You are claiming non-matter created matter. Please explain how this can be.(If you invoke the supernatural, I will laugh)
-------

I have explained this for more than several times but preconceived
notion won't allow you to understand.

Since: Feb 13

Tarzana, CA

#425 Apr 10, 2013
The serpent was right wrote:
<quoted text>
Than all you have to do is explain how non-matter can possibly create matter.
I can hardly wait for your reply!!
-----

You want a visible proof to satisty the eyes of your flesh. Use your mind for a change.

Since: Feb 13

Tarzana, CA

#426 Apr 10, 2013
The serpent was right wrote:
<quoted text>
Is the watchmake non-matter who is creating something of matter out of non-matter? Does the watchmaker exist in a material world? Does the watchmaker make all the materials he needs for the watch from nothing?
You analogy is poor.
----

And yours is less than poor. Where did the matter that caused
the BB come from. It could not have been always there and could not
have caused itself into existence.

Since: Feb 13

Tarzana, CA

#427 Apr 10, 2013
Amused wrote:
<quoted text>
If you get any denser, you may become your own black hole.
-----

You must have reached that density already; otherwise you would not speak as one who has a lot of experience.

Tell me when this thread is updated:

Subscribe Now Add to my Tracker

Add your comments below

Characters left: 4000

Please note by submitting this form you acknowledge that you have read the Terms of Service and the comment you are posting is in compliance with such terms. Be polite. Inappropriate posts may be removed by the moderator. Send us your feedback.

Atheism Discussions

Title Updated Last By Comments
News "Science vs. Religion: What Scientists Really T... (Jan '12) 6 min Eagle 12 29,615
News In America, atheists are still in the closet (Apr '12) 17 min Eagle 12 50,981
Science Disproves Evolution (Aug '12) 23 min Eagle 12 3,520
News Atheism, for Good Reason, Fears Questions (Jun '09) 30 min Eagle 12 11,831
Religion Down Suicide Up 38 min Eagle 12 106
News Atheism requires as much faith as religion? (Jul '09) 43 min Eagle 12 254,996
News The war on Christmas (Dec '10) 48 min Eagle 12 4,270
More from around the web